Early in the investigation, there were two theories about the punctured windshield. One involved hand thrown or dropped rocks, and the other involved gun shots. There was enough perceived credibility for either theory to raise public pressure to investigate them.
So, in response, Sumwalt announced that he was calling in the FBI to independently confirm or deny the involvement of gun shots. At the same time he announced that move, the impartial Sumwalt aggressively talked down the theory of gun shots. Why would he inject such a biased view during the announcement of seeking an unbiased opinion of the FBI?
I cannot imagine the FBI reaching a conclusion about the involvement of either rocks or gun shots without a laboratory analysis of the windshield. Why on earth would they not do that? To be clear, I do not know if they did or not.
However, the FBI did officially deny that gun shots played any role just a day or two after they were called in. I see two reasons to believe that they never did a laboratory analysis:
1) I doubt that it would have been completed in such a short time.
2) I feel certain that had they done such an analysis that proved the non-existance of gun shot evidence, the NTSB report would explicitly describe that process and its result.
[from the NTSB final report, page 48]:
"The engineer did not recall or report the locomotive being struck by an object prior to the derailment, and FBI testing showed no evidence of ballistic material. Postaccident toxicological tests for crewmembers were negative for alcohol and other drugs. Postaccident testing and examination of the engineer did not identify any medical conditions that would have interfered with train operation. There was no evidence of cell phone use by the engineer during the accident trip. Further, the on-duty/off-duty schedule provided adequate time for the employees to obtain rest. Investigators examined the records for track inspections and maintenance. The undamaged track was examined during the on-scene investigation. The track was inspected and maintained within regulatory standards, and no track anomalies were discovered after the derailment. The NTSB concludes that none of the following was a factor in this accident: the mechanical condition of the train; a foreign object striking the locomotive; the condition of the track; the weather; medical conditions of the Amtrak engineer; alcohol, other drugs, or any other type of impairment; cell phone use; and fatigue. "
For most people of average intelligence, with the ability to read accurately and not suffering from some mental impairment or bias, the conclusions are accepted. Period.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
daveklepper I agreewith Euclid. I do not beleive the FBI Report. I believe that the FBI has been politicized to serve the Obama Administraition goal of never allowing blame of any problem to fall on the ideology of Islamic Fundamentalsim, which Obama claims does not exist. The behavior of the FBI toward the koller in Obama gives ample evidence of that political bias to me. Obama's response so far to those who have raised this specific issue is: "Let us not increase differences between moderate Muslijms and extremists or the moderates won't be able to influence the extremists to moderation." This is stratergy that I believe is doomed to failure. It has not worked so far. He does make an exception in the case of ISIS, but only there.
I agreewith Euclid. I do not beleive the FBI Report. I believe that the FBI has been politicized to serve the Obama Administraition goal of never allowing blame of any problem to fall on the ideology of Islamic Fundamentalsim, which Obama claims does not exist. The behavior of the FBI toward the koller in Obama gives ample evidence of that political bias to me. Obama's response so far to those who have raised this specific issue is: "Let us not increase differences between moderate Muslijms and extremists or the moderates won't be able to influence the extremists to moderation."
This is stratergy that I believe is doomed to failure. It has not worked so far.
He does make an exception in the case of ISIS, but only there.
Now you're dishonestly making up quotations to fit your bigoted conspiracy theory?
dehusman daveklepper except an unexplained hole in the windshield and rocks thrown at the other train. Riddle me this Sherlock. Looking at pictures of the engine windshield there are about 4 impact marks in the engineer's side window and two marks in the fireman's side window. So you are saying that all of those marks are caused by people dropping things off an overpass onto the train? The police/FBI have already ruled out gunfire. Now for the next question. If you look at BOTH windshield wipers you will notice there are green leaves stuck in wipers. If the train went through some sort of vegetation that was at least tall enough to reach the windshield wipers (8-15 feet tall) why is it so hard to believe that it might have hit something solid along the way (like a tree????)
daveklepper except an unexplained hole in the windshield and rocks thrown at the other train.
except an unexplained hole in the windshield and rocks thrown at the other train.
I don't think it is hard to believe that explanation if the investigation took a close enough look to establish that trees caused the windshield breakage and then told us of that finding. But, in lieu of any explanation from the NTSB, why should we speculate that it was trees that caused the damage?
My conclusion is that the damage might have been caused by trees, signal structures, or rocks thrown or dropped by vandals. The NTSB gives me no reason to rule out the latter.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Does it not depend on what you define as a Jidhadist? If you define a Jidhadist as someone who is actually building bombs or coming at you with a kife, then self-protection says you have a right to prevent harm to yourself. If he is a large and powerful man coming at me, I mgiht wish to "kill him before he kills me." If he is a 12 year old or pregnant woman I mgiht try to injure his or her legs or do something non-lethal that would still protect me. But the definition of this term is simiply a Muslim that is fanatical about oberving every rule of his or her religion and is evangelistic in trying to spread it to others. It does not necesseily involve violence. If the Jidhadist observes the non-violant form of Islam, the form that was prevelant before the British appointed Haaj Al Husseini as Jerusalem Mufti, such a person can be my friend, and I can say to him or her what I say to a Christian Evangelist: "The Messiah will settle the argument between us, and meanwhile, let us work together to help the Eternal pefect the World."
tdmidget Niemoller said it many times with various groupslisted and even he said that he did so. The earlier versions did not list the Jews. I looked for the earliest version as the most original. He apparently tailored it to his audience. The meaning is the same: that we are all one, we must not neglect any group merely because we are not members of it. hatred diminishs all.
Niemoller said it many times with various groupslisted and even he said that he did so. The earlier versions did not list the Jews. I looked for the earliest version as the most original. He apparently tailored it to his audience. The meaning is the same: that we are all one, we must not neglect any group merely because we are not members of it. hatred diminishs all.
Niemöller did list them, building from the smallest to Jews, the largest last. Here is a translated text from a speech he gave Jan. 6, 1946 for the Confessing Church (Ev.) in Frankfurt, which contains the germ of the poem:"When put in a concentration camp we wrote the year 1937; when the concentration camp was opened we wrote the year 1933, and the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers.Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians - "should I be my brother's keeper?"Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. - I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle [of society]? -- Only then did the church as such take note. Then we started talking, until our voices were again silenced in public. Can we say, we aren't guilty/responsible? The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written in the newspapersI believe, we Confessing-Church-Christians have every reason to say: mea culpa, mea culpa! We can talk ourselves out of it with the excuse that it would have cost me my head if I had spoken out."
Midget: "This is why these people MUST be killed before they can perform that evil which cleanses their selves."
Your statement calling for pre-emptively killing all Jihadists is exactly what Niemöller said we should speak out against. It is a travesty that you quote even a portion of his poem as though it were your motto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMs8tfP8Re0&t=2m11s
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/08/obituaries/martin-niemoller-resolute-foe-of-hitler.html?pagewanted=all
As some know already, I lost my best friend at age 7-1/2 when the Nazis topedoed the liuxury ship Athena in 1939, and my Dad was very active in resucing Jews and others from the Nazis. But I have seen young Germans voliunteer during their vacations in Isaeli hospitals, and German reparations gave the Israeli economy the needed startup funds. There are religious Muslims that pray five times a day and volounteer to serve in the Isralei armed forces, the highest ranking one today is a Major. There are good and bad in every population.
What has been lacking is major funding for media to present moderate Islam to Muslims. Jordanian and Moroccan radio and TV don't have the budget that Saudi and Iranian media have, and many Mosques in the USA are funded by extremist wealthy Saudis, Iranians, people of Quartar, etc. What is needed is a massive media effort Worldwide to restore Islam to what it was when Muslims invited 70 Jewish families to return to Jerusalem after driving out the European Criusaders and also permitted the monestaries and convents that had existed before the Crusaders to continiue to function; and the Caliph of Jerusalem came to the Jaffa dock to personally welcome the Jews fleeing from Torquamada's (Queen Isabella's) Spain in 1492; and Holy Land Jews were represented in the Turksh Parliament, and had the right to pray at the Western Wall.
The infamous Mufti that the British appointed in 1926 changed all that, with the Hebron pogrom (1929) that wiped out the centuries-old Jewish community there. This mufti corresponded with Hitler as early as 1924 and was his guest in Berlin during WWII. Today he is honored in "Palestinian" schools, as well as those run by ISIS. Now we even have Abbas saying that "Palestinians" are indeed descendents of the Philistines instead of our Father Abraham/Ibrehem!
Every religion can be distorted to teach hate, but Islam's hate has the backing of solme very powerful governments. Islam is not at war with Western Civilization, but Islamic Fundamentalism certainly is. It is long past time that Obama should recognize that fact. ISIS and Fort Hood and Orlando and World TRade Center/Pentagon, and Iran's heading to Nukes and the Israel-Palestinian quarrel are not all separate and individual problems.
Obama's speech after Orlando was a grievous insult to the American People and did not addrss the issue but addressed an issue that simply does not exist, now, as opposed to 50 years ago, for most Americans. The dislike of some Americans for gays and transvestites does not extend to outright hatred and certainly not to violence. He is simply wrong.
tdmidget I did not say all muslims. I was frefering to he Jihadists who believe that. I did not bring Jews into it because I have never known a Jew who carried that kind of hate in their heart. Those who think that their crime will absolve them can only be stopped by killing or imprisonment, which our idiot in chief has shown is not permanent.
I did not say all muslims. I was frefering to he Jihadists who believe that. I did not bring Jews into it because I have never known a Jew who carried that kind of hate in their heart. Those who think that their crime will absolve them can only be stopped by killing or imprisonment, which our idiot in chief has shown is not permanent.
It would help if you could read. My comment referred to your slogan, which misquotes Niemöller and omits Jews, who are the most important group, obviously, in that saying. He would never endorse your bigotry.
Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 6:38 PM
The delay of posting posts is confusing to me …. Sorry if some of this is already posted
Reference Moderator listing Out of Place did this post not realize the subject was a train wreck in Philly???? Where is the off subject/reject button????
Guess who also is …. Off topic …… my bad ….. just got carried away
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 8:55 AM
I too thought it was odd that the man got guns w/background checks in place and green light given for his purchase.
Shop owner has grief, he did all he could!!!!
FBI did all they could, as detailed listing of their investigation of reports !!!!
(see something, say something, HAPPENED…..this is so much needed to stop this).
Where I wonder what happened, when background check happened, why one agency did not pass info to another? No telling how many levels of bureaus before gun shop to FBI contact was made if at all. Agency to agency (gotta mention political correctness along the way) to me is the problem not just one place.
We gotta work together.
To keep this RR specific, it amazes me how departments of RR’s fight each other for Track and Time , signal, operations, MoW , …… to hear the dispatcher with a disgusted voice say, “Well if we have to…..” you would think the MoW just wants to “lean on the clock” and not make it safe for trains to travel ……. just sayin’ endmrw0614161800
schlimm tdmidget His own bedroom sport is forgiven. This is why these people MUST be killed before they can perform that evil which cleanses their selves. Great! "These people"? You are calling for a mass murder on a level that would make the Nazis look like wimps. It is a disgrace that you quote a very jumbled quotation of the anti-Nazi theologian, Reinold Niebuhr, notably omitting Jews.
tdmidget His own bedroom sport is forgiven. This is why these people MUST be killed before they can perform that evil which cleanses their selves.
Great! "These people"? You are calling for a mass murder on a level that would make the Nazis look like wimps.
It is a disgrace that you quote a very jumbled quotation of the anti-Nazi theologian, Reinold Niebuhr, notably omitting Jews.
The ONE the ONLY/ Paragould Arkansas/ 1883 called The Crossing/ a portmanteau/ JW Paramore (Cotton Belt RR) Jay Gould (MoPac)/ None other, nowhere in the world
tdmidgetHis own bedroom sport is forgiven. This is why these people MUST be killed before they can perform that evil which cleanses their selves.
It is a disgrace that you quote a very jumbled quotation of the anti-Nazi theologian, Martin Niemoller, notably omitting Jews.
Remember that per the Jihadists when one dies as a martyr then all sins are forgiven. So, he killed 49 gay people and ruined many other lives but he is a "martyr" . His own bedroom sport is forgiven. This is why these people MUST be killed before they can perform that evil which cleanses their selves.
To keep this RR specific, it amazes me how departments of RR’s fight each other for Track and Time , signal, operations, MoW , …… to hear the dispatcher with a disgusted voice say, “Well if we have to…..” you would think the MoW just wants to “lean on the clock” and not make it safe for trains to travel ……. just sayin’ endmrw0614161650
daveklepper Except an unexplained hole in the windshield and rocks thrown at the other train. Given our President's speech following the Orlando incident......(I do not believe for one moment that general North American (including USA) attitudes about Gays, Transvestites, etc, had anything whatsoever to do witih the Orlando incident.) So I simply do not believe the FBI report but believe it was crafted to serve a polical purpose. If it had expressed a question aboiut a rock or other object, I could believe, but a flat denial is not confirmed by the facts as I understand them. Regarding Orlando, about 18 months ago a hate crime against Gays did occur at a Gay Pride parade in Israel, and the criminal, who claimed he did it as an Orthodox Jew for religious reasonjs, is in jail with a life setnence. An of course all Orthodox rabbis condemned the attack, all, both in Israel and in the USA and everywhere else. But the Hamas leadership cheered Orlando. Oiur President does not seem to understand that there is a difference. I am not sure if there has been any condemnation of Orlando from Saudi Arabia or Turkey. Jordan, yes, definitely. I do not wish to see Bostian vicimized because our President still does not wish to face the biggist threat humanitiy faces but instead tries to only attack its symtoms and sometimes makes matters worse in doing so.
Except an unexplained hole in the windshield and rocks thrown at the other train.
Given our President's speech following the Orlando incident......(I do not believe for one moment that general North American (including USA) attitudes about Gays, Transvestites, etc, had anything whatsoever to do witih the Orlando incident.) So I simply do not believe the FBI report but believe it was crafted to serve a polical purpose. If it had expressed a question aboiut a rock or other object, I could believe, but a flat denial is not confirmed by the facts as I understand them.
Regarding Orlando, about 18 months ago a hate crime against Gays did occur at a Gay Pride parade in Israel, and the criminal, who claimed he did it as an Orthodox Jew for religious reasonjs, is in jail with a life setnence. An of course all Orthodox rabbis condemned the attack, all, both in Israel and in the USA and everywhere else.
But the Hamas leadership cheered Orlando. Oiur President does not seem to understand that there is a difference. I am not sure if there has been any condemnation of Orlando from Saudi Arabia or Turkey. Jordan, yes, definitely.
I do not wish to see Bostian vicimized because our President still does not wish to face the biggist threat humanitiy faces but instead tries to only attack its symtoms and sometimes makes matters worse in doing so.
You are entitled to your conspiracy 'theories' but you never offer a shred of evidence except spewing your bias.
In any case, it is looking more and more like the motivation for the Orlando murderer was not primarily Jihadist terror. Instead seems he was a deeply disturbed closeted gay struggling with shame issues over his sexual identity. He was nearly a regular at the club for three years and frequented gay chat rooms. This may well be a self-loathing, anti-gay hate crime. The Jihadist radicalization appears to be his public, but secondary motivation.
Norm48327 I read it stem-end to gudgeon. I did not see any explanation of the hole in the windshield. I still can't help but think that for some reason they did not want such information made public. Why? Anyone's guess.
My guess (opinion) is that they did not look for any evidence because they did not want to offend the political leadership of Philadelphia by highlighting its entrenched culture of people who often throw rocks at passenger trains, causing property damage and putting passengers and crews at risk. It makes the city look bad.
Euclid The unexplained hole in the windshield, the rocking of a nearby train during the general timeframe of the passages of #188, the fact that rocking occurs often, the fact that the engineer has no memory of whether his train was hit by a rock or not-- all of these factors are evidence of the possibility of rocking of #188. A laboratory analysis of the hole in the windshield would have likely revealed bits of material left from the object that punctured the hole. It would have revealed whether the object was composed of available rocks, concrete, or steel. It might show a combination of bits of steel and paint, which might indicate that the object came from a wayside structure being struck. It would have also showed how a hole was puctured through the glass without the object causing the hole passing through the hole and entering the cab space. I have not read the full report. Does it include the details of such a laboratory analysis of the hole in the windshield? If not, why not?
The unexplained hole in the windshield, the rocking of a nearby train during the general timeframe of the passages of #188, the fact that rocking occurs often, the fact that the engineer has no memory of whether his train was hit by a rock or not-- all of these factors are evidence of the possibility of rocking of #188.
A laboratory analysis of the hole in the windshield would have likely revealed bits of material left from the object that punctured the hole. It would have revealed whether the object was composed of available rocks, concrete, or steel. It might show a combination of bits of steel and paint, which might indicate that the object came from a wayside structure being struck. It would have also showed how a hole was puctured through the glass without the object causing the hole passing through the hole and entering the cab space.
I have not read the full report. Does it include the details of such a laboratory analysis of the hole in the windshield? If not, why not?
I read it stem-end to gudgeon. I did not see any explanation of the hole in the windshield. I still can't help but think that for some reason they did not want such information made public. Why? Anyone's guess.
Norm
I understand that the FBI dismissed had earlier dismissed the concern that had been expressed over the violent threats alleged to have been made by the shooter some time ago. The FBI decided that because the shooter had told them that the violent threats were in retaliation toward people who were insulting him and his religious beliefs.
Did the shooter offer any proof of that allegation? If it were true, would that then justify the shooter to make terroistic threats to those who were insulting him?
That is also a possibility, but only a possibilitiy. And I think a projectile of some sort hitting the windshield is also still a possibility. Ater the FBI not preventing the Orlando event, whcih was clearly in their power to do so, I simply do not believe the FBI report.
daveklepperI do not wish to see Bostian vicimized because our President still does not wish to face the biggist threat humanitiy faces but instead tries to only attack its symtoms and sometimes makes matters worse in doing so.
Or, you know, he could have just screwed up and was going too fast. I mean, he is only human (like the rest of us).
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
And can you understand that I have a right to feel that the FBI has been politicized after reading of their three interviews with the Orlando terrorist? And how should I react to the President's speech on that subject?
daveklepper I would like to know what is the basis for dismissing the hypothesis that something hit the front or a side of the locomotive, possibly the windshield window, before the accident?
I would like to know what is the basis for dismissing the hypothesis that something hit the front or a side of the locomotive, possibly the windshield window, before the accident?
The basis is that after a thorough, year-long investigation, no evidence turned up to support either of your past speculations: a rock or a terrorist.
Dakguy201This long after 9-11, I thought that problems of command and coordination in a major disaster had been ironed out, especially in our major cities.
It's an ongoing battle. Not so much between agencies, but getting incident command in place.
Incident command, in order to work well, needs to be in place from the first moment of an incident. The fire service does this pretty well, since they tend to work as a team most of the time anyhow.
EMS doesn't do badly, and has procedures in place for such incidents. Drills are held, and it's often discussed in the trade press and in training. A traffic incident involving several vehicles and multiple injuries becomes a mass casualty incident by definition.
IMHO, police, on the other hand, tend to work fairly independently on a regular basis. With the rare exception of a major incident, officers are usually acting alone, or in small groups, with no need to establish a command structure for an incident.
That doesn't mean that the three can't (or don't) work well together for everyday incidents, but when the you-know-what hits the fan, establishing unified command can be problematic.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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