Tell these thirsty people to grow their own water, and tell the NIMBY's who do not want desalinization plants built to stop keeping their grass green and put some effort into sweeping their walks.
Johnny
It seems to me that a hypothetical proposal to take free water that's about to be "wasted" by becomming salt water in the St. Lawrence River and selling it on the free market to anyone Out West who needs it via a privately owned or even TVA-type owned pipeline would be an idea that would be embraced by all the free market, no-socialism voices one often hears. Why not? We're not talking about emptying the lakes or even affecting them; we're talking about a big flowing river. I bet if whoever took the water gave some of the profits to the various states involved (I'll let the accountants figure out the give-back formula) there would be some real support. Simply put: We have it in abundance; they are willing to pay for it.
It's disturbing, though, to read the negative comments, along the lines of People Out West deserve this drought because they have swimming pools, Las Vegas, wash the sidewalks, and waste water like crazy compared to us conservative (or lucky) folks Back East. Then there's the idea that Great Lakes water is too polluted to be used even on crops (note the comment about agricultural workers!), as if what we drink in these states is OK for us but the same water in a pipeline would be contaminated beyond salvation.
If fracking is OK, if oil derricks everywhere is OK, if coal plants are OK, if free enterprise is OK, if the Keystone Pipeline is OK.....why is a hypothetical water pipeline beyond the pale?
NKP - Mankind seems to love to live in places that wouldn't otherwise support life. A city like Lost Wages goes against common sense - why build a city someplace where you have to import everything. I know - Lake Mead had a lot to do with it. And still does.
If cities like LA, Phoenix, and Las Vegas were forced to live "within their means" a lot of people would have to find new place to live. And that's not taking into account the recent drought conditions in the area.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Convicted One overall The thinking is that water could be taken from the Mississippi region, where there is too much, to California, where there is too little. If you really want some interesting reading, look back into the internal conflicts California has had in trying to manage it's water woes internally. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Water_Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California What you are talking about is that octopuss' ambitions to become a nation-wide menace. I lived in The Bay area a number of years where there was aggressive water rationing in practice due to water shortages caused by water export to Los Angeles. Then, I moved to LA, and was shocked to see people hosing off their sidewalks who had never even heard there was a water shortage in California. Now evidently those buzzards come home to roost? The only good reason I could see to send water to California would be as an appeasement to keep the masses out there, so they won't move east looking for water.
overall The thinking is that water could be taken from the Mississippi region, where there is too much, to California, where there is too little.
If you really want some interesting reading, look back into the internal conflicts California has had in trying to manage it's water woes internally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Water_Wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California
What you are talking about is that octopuss' ambitions to become a nation-wide menace.
I lived in The Bay area a number of years where there was aggressive water rationing in practice due to water shortages caused by water export to Los Angeles.
Then, I moved to LA, and was shocked to see people hosing off their sidewalks who had never even heard there was a water shortage in California.
Now evidently those buzzards come home to roost?
The only good reason I could see to send water to California would be as an appeasement to keep the masses out there, so they won't move east looking for water.
If I left California, it would be for much better reasons than a lack of water. But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years. Doing that is a good way to bring on the water police here.
One of the guiding principles of Gov. Brown (Sr.) 's California Water Project of 55 years ago, was that Southern California water users, in addition to paying all the cost of building and operating the system, would only be drawing off the excess over and above the needs of the northern part of the state. Most years, the northern part has VASTLY more than it needs (ask anyone who's worked for the NWP RR) and, along with getting huge new flood-control facilities purchased by the southern users, really was not supposed to be affected in any negative way.
This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold, and the system would not have been built without something to buy political support in the northern half of the state, where a great number of people would rather see the excess run into the Pacific than routed south.
As for the future, droughts (like heavy-rain seasons) don't last forever, but California's surprisingly continuous population growth will contine to put pressure on the water supply.
Seawater conversion, like that coming on line in San Diego County, is a hopeful development. But without sounding too absurd, I can imagine NIMBYs wondering if the stuff we remove from the seawater, and return to the Pacific, will be polluting our ocean.
garyla Seawater conversion, like that coming on line in San Diego County, is a hopeful development. But without sounding too absurd, I can imagine NIMBYs wondering if the stuff we remove from the seawater, and return to the Pacific, will be polluting our ocean.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingDon't be silly. Just package up what's left over and sell it as some exotic sea salt.
Yeah - seems like everybody's got some sort of sea salt concoction they're pushing. It's even in dark chocolate!
Win/Win!
Well, as long as we're talking about far out, off-topic stuff that will never happen, consider this pie in the sky, no less "out there" than the original post- Here's the plan. Run a ginormous pipe from the Pacific Ocean in California east until it crosses the mountains to the desert areas. Once over the ridge, use the downward, eastern flowing water to produce hydroelectric power to offset the power needed to pump the sea water up the hill in the first place. As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. As millions and millions of gallons of sea water turn into water vapor above the desert, the climate in the desert begins to change. That water has to go somewhere, and eventually turns into rain. The desert becomes green. The desert also cools- helping global warming of course. And the displaced water lowers the sea level, so the polar bears- and all of Florida- don't drown. It's a win-win-win situation. What could go wrong with that plan to save the planet?
Murphy Siding Well, as long as we're talking about far out, off-topic stuff that will never happen, consider this pie in the sky, no less "out there" than trainfinder's original post- Here's the plan. Run a ginormous pipe from the Pacific Ocean in California east until it crosses the mountains to the desert areas. Once over the ridge, use the downward, eastern flowing water to produce hydroelectric power to offset the power needed to pump the sea water up the hill in the first place. As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. As millions and millions of gallons of sea water turn into water vapor above the desert, the climate in the desert begins to change. That water has to go somewhere, and eventually turns into rain. The desert becomes green. The desert also cools- helping global warming of course. And the displaced water lowers the sea level, so the polar bears- and all of Florida- don't drown. It's a win-win-win situation. What could go wrong with that plan to save the planet?
Well, as long as we're talking about far out, off-topic stuff that will never happen, consider this pie in the sky, no less "out there" than trainfinder's original post- Here's the plan. Run a ginormous pipe from the Pacific Ocean in California east until it crosses the mountains to the desert areas. Once over the ridge, use the downward, eastern flowing water to produce hydroelectric power to offset the power needed to pump the sea water up the hill in the first place. As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. As millions and millions of gallons of sea water turn into water vapor above the desert, the climate in the desert begins to change. That water has to go somewhere, and eventually turns into rain. The desert becomes green. The desert also cools- helping global warming of course. And the displaced water lowers the sea level, so the polar bears- and all of Florida- don't drown. It's a win-win-win situation. What could go wrong with that plan to save the planet?
Obviously, it's not perpetual motion gig, as the hydro electricity produced doesn't equal the energy needed to lift the sea water in the first place. Now, once you build the windmills, to take advantage of the wind produced by the evaporating sea water's affect on the local atmosphere, then you're on the right track.
Congratulations! you burst the bubble. Though, it is beginning to look like Rube Goldberg.
NO!!! and NO!!!..... Great Lakes States and their citys have been on the ropes for far too long. Look how empty the downtowns of Toledo, Buffalo,Erie,Detroit, Superior are....We need people and industry to move here and Google and Silicon Valley are quietly moving operations here do to a ample supply of fresh water and clean electricity. here as in Niagara Falls and parts of Erie are seeing some growth.
They have a whole ocean in their front yard. Desalinate .
Murphy Siding As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt.
They already have huge evaporation/sea-salt plants in Mexico, where the attendant labor is cheaper. So their exotics would undercut yours.
garyla But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years.
true, I left the lower west coast in 2003. But the garden hoses were still gushing back then
garylaThis may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold,
When I lived in the Bay Area, they were restricting your right to water lawns and wash cars based upon your house address (even-odd, etc) ...So much for "low impact" forecasting.
The Devil in the details that caught my fascination was that scarce water was being siphoned out of Northern California reserves to serve Southern California needs. Northern Californians were being forced to conserve, while the beneficiaries of the aforementioned siphoning had no idea that water was in short supply.
Evidently someone had decided that Southern California had become "Too big to fail" ?
NKP guyIt's disturbing, though, to read the negative comments, along the lines of People Out West deserve this drought because they have swimming pools, Las Vegas, wash the sidewalks, and waste water like crazy compared to
It's likewise "disturbing" to see bad history tryin g to repeat. [the way the ambitions of people who will NEVER be happy have already conspired to take water away from one "good cause" and subvert it into their "good cause" just because they see theirs as more deserving.]
Convicted One Murphy Siding As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. They already have huge evaporation/sea-salt plants in Mexico, where the attendant labor is cheaper. So their exotics would undercut yours.
Murphy Siding Surely adroit marketing and truth in advertising would tip the scales? Who would buy ordinary, run of the mill, Mexican sea salt, when they could purchase *Rich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt*?
Surely adroit marketing and truth in advertising would tip the scales? Who would buy ordinary, run of the mill, Mexican sea salt, when they could purchase *Rich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt*?
Just stamp it "Imported"
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Murphy SidingRich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt
For some reason, Ricardo Monatalban's image flashed in my mind as i read that.
Paul of Covington Murphy Siding Surely adroit marketing and truth in advertising would tip the scales? Who would buy ordinary, run of the mill, Mexican sea salt, when they could purchase *Rich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt*? Just stamp it "Imported"
Convicted One garyla But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years. true, I left the lower west coast in 2003. But the garden hoses were still gushing back then garyla This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold, When I lived in the Bay Area, they were restricting your right to water lawns and wash cars based upon your house address (even-odd, etc) ...So much for "low impact" forecasting. The Devil in the details that caught my fascination was that scarce water was being siphoned out of Northern California reserves to serve Southern California needs. Northern Californians were being forced to conserve, while the beneficiaries of the aforementioned siphoning had no idea that water was in short supply. Evidently someone had decided that Southern California had become "Too big to fail" ?
garyla This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold,
Think of it all as delayed punishment for Horace Stoneham's S. F. Giants trying to slow down Maury Wills by soaking the basepaths before the 1962 NL playoffs vs. the Dodgers.
garyla Think of it all as delayed punishment for Horace Stoneham's S. F. Giants trying to slow down Maury Wills by soaking the basepaths before the 1962 NL playoffs vs. the Dodgers.
Of the crime of Walter O'Malley, reviled betrayer of Brooklyn.
The Duke, Gil and Peewee
I like the Arabic idea!
Oil rich Sheikhs going after ice - going to Antarctica and capturing "iceburgs" then towing them in for the fresh water. What we need is to "haul the ice by ship" - get it from the pole while it lasts - nature's fresh water freezer.
Send it by ship to California - if it melts its still water - just use ships untainted by chemicals and oil!
No pipeline spills either!
Doc.
Let's run some numbers... Train size of 100 cars with 104 tons each works out to 2,500,000 gallons. Assume 25,000,000 people in area served by the water trains (this is less than the population of alifornia). Ten trains a day will get 1 gallon of water person per day. The strictest rationing the I recall for a large water district was 49 gallons a day per person in Marin Count in 1977. 490 trains per day doesn't sound practical.
As for shiping ater from the Mississippi or Great Lakes, the energy requirements of pumping over the Continental Divide would dictate running a level tunnel from wherever the water is collected to California. This would be within the bounds of current technology, but the cost would be a deal killer.
The energy requirements for reverse osmosis is about the same as pumping water over a 3,000' summit. This would be about the same as shipping by rail a bit 100 miles on an FEC flat main line (energy includes empty return trip).
- Erik
Dr D I like the Arabic idea! Oil rich Sheikhs going after ice - going to Antarctica and capturing "iceburgs" then towing them in for the fresh water. What we need is to "haul the ice by ship" - get it from the pole while it lasts - nature's fresh water freezer. Send it by ship to California - if it melts its still water - just use ships untainted by chemicals and oil! No pipeline spills either! Doc.
And if they sink - meh!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
There's something about 490 trains a day in each direction just carrying water (and empties) that gets my attention. Just imagine all those trains in addition to the current traffic! How many tracks would that require? And would the Zephyr still be way late?
Or we could fly the water in. How many planes would be needed @ 25 million gal. daily?
See? Sometimes physics can be fun.
Call me crazy, but I think economics would justify a pipeline long before 490 daily trains. Though, that also should justify electrication of the mainline at those numbers, just so they could maintain headway between trains.
narig01You can not use tank cars that have been used to haul oil or other chemicals to haul water for human or any other food grade uses. (Like irrigation water or animals use) . Food grade tanks can only be used to haul what we eat and drink. Once something goes in the tank that is not consumable like oil or chemicals you can not use it for food, (or water). Rgds IGN
There's no need to use it directly for potable water. You can use it for the intake to a water treatment plant.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Convicted OneIt's likewise "disturbing" to see bad history tryin g to repeat. [the way the ambitions of people who will NEVER be happy have already conspired to take water away from one "good cause" and subvert it into their "good cause" just because they see theirs as more deserving.]
Many beleive that the next great wars in this world will not be fought over oil - but for water.
One of the upcoming generations will eventually have to make some hard decisions about where people will be allowed to live. Probably won't be any of the current ones, but it will have to be done some day.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
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