overall Can tank car trains carry water economically? There has been a discussion on NPR about building a pipeline from the Mississippi River valley, which is flooded at times, to California, which is in the midst of a drought. The thinking is that water could be taken from the Mississippi region, where there is too much, to California, where there is too little. Instead of building a pipeline, could the “111” tank cars now being taken out of oil service be used to transport water between these two places? Obviously, if there was a wreck, water would be harmless
How about people move from water poor regions to water rich regions?
Desalination of ocean water might be cheaper..
Bad idea. Even if the Mississippi does flood at times, there are others where it's low, and it is a major navigation artery.
You also have to consider that water is heavier than oil, for a given volume. Crude comes in at 790-862 kg/cu meter. Water tips the scales at an even 1000.
That means the weight of crude ranges from 6.6 lbs per gallon to 7.2 lbs per gallon. Water comes in at 8.3 lbs per gallon. Pretty significant difference - as much as 51,000 lbs for a 30,000 gallon car.
overallObviously, if there was a wreck, water would be harmless.
The cars themselves, however, would cause just as much phyiscal damage as they would if filled with crude, and I don't know that your house would withstand the sudden influx of 30,000 gallons of water any better than mine, should a car catastrophically fail. In the middle of nowhere, you're right - basically harmless. In a built up area, not so much.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Well we do have some dead head traffic now moving west instead of empty tank cars we have full ones. However there are regulation against exporting Great Lakes water out of a Great Lakes State. Their is fear that we could bleed them dry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lWeYa0_5bc
The trouble with Great Lakes water is the Zebra Snail menace, an evasive species that came in ballast water. In the marine transportation forums ballast water treatment has gotten to be a big issue for regulation. Even the small amount left in outboard motors can spread Zebra Mussels to other lakes. You have to filter it and chemically treat it so as far as California is concerned they should just use reverse osmosis on sea water like they do now.
Could be a use for all those older DOT-111 tank cars ..
Transport by sea is also an option ..
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/SIMHONM/
Here is a link to an article in Newsweek describing California's water problems. It's doubtful enough water could be shipped in to solve their water problems when they are not properly managing what they have.
http://www.newsweek.com/why-californians-are-starved-water-314867
Norm
Norm48327 Here is a link to an article in Newsweek describing California's water problems. It's doubtful enough water could be shipped in to solve their water problems when they are not properly managing what they have. http://www.newsweek.com/why-californians-are-starved-water-314867
FTL:(posted by Norm48327) [snipped] "...One of the ironies of the current drought is that urbanites who canceled these projects never made plans either to find more water or to curb population. Take the most progressive environmentalist in Los Angeles and the Bay Area: The likelihood is that his garden and bath water are the results of an engineering project of the sort he now opposes..." [snipped]
Woud seem to be somewhat 'penny-wise and pound foolish' "..to want all those folks to come live there, and fail to provide for sufficient water supplies..." Not too long ago in San Fran area there were stories that the adoption of 'low flow' plumbing had caused problems with the ability to flush out the effluent sent to the City Sewers. Seems like this current issue of not enough water to drink, could be an extension of that same lack of planning??? Maybe, they need to have everyone going into California bring their own water with them....
Try stopping Ilegal immgrant flow and implement mandatory birth control....That would be the most politicaly incorrect solution or wait for CA to fall into the Ocean. More likley would to redetrbute the pop to other underpopulated places that need people like.....Cleveland!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heMbsdTJaAw
From my fav media guy its a Chem Trail Geo Engineering thang
Interesting idea, but the pipeline would be better and would only have to run to the head waters of the Colorado River. It would be a free ride down to California, Arizona and Mexico which all use the water from the river.
Ah, but that makes too much sense and involves a pipeline which does not create any jobs.
A pipeline was proposed from the Columbia in Oregon to Northern California several years ago, but was turned down because some group did not want us to use any water out of the Columbia.
The food production in California will be much lower this year since the water is not being used for growing good and food prices will continue to rise.
RR
California has a large border on the Pacific Ocean coastline. They have to take the ocean water, filter out all the contaminants out of the water, and there will be plenty of local accessed fresh water for for Californians.
Where ever they get the water it would have to be filtered and purified for safe usage. There is a great amount of water in the Pacific Ocean.
A short tank car trip to and from the Pacific Ocean water purification plants in California is the result.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Man has done a pitiful job trying to reallocate natures distribution of water resources on the planet.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I think the very serious problem of water shortages out West could be allieviated, not by water trains, but by a suggestion I once saw offered by a hydrologist. Please take out your maps.
The Great Lakes funnel into the St. Lawrence River not far from Massena, NY. At this point the fresh waters of the lakes start running into salt water. In other words, the fresh water from this point on gets "wasted." It is completely doable to build a pipeline or pipelines from Massena, NY to, say, California. Taking this water from the St. Lawrence River would not violate our (fine) treaties with the Dominion of the North and would turn millions of gallons of fresh water from a resource about to be wasted (salted) into a valuable, usable natural resource by our countrymen who need it and would pay for it. I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing the Atlantic needs more water to be salted.
Is this a doable project? It depends. It would be to men like Theodore Roosevelt or Franklin Roosevelt, or men like Albert Norris or those who built the TVA. Dangers? Sure; imagine news reports saying, "Pipeline breaks: one million gallons of fresh water spills onto the Great Plains."
Take a look at your maps. Then realize the paralyzed country we live in, and with a sigh turn the page as the West slowly burns up for yet another year....needlessly.
When I was a kid in the 1950’s there was a Southern Pacific (Pacific Electric) tank car train that would operate up and down the streets of San Bernardino (CA) to and from a place up in the mountains. Reportedly, the cars were water cars. Obviously, it wasn’t an economically beneficial situation because the trains and tracks are no more.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
NKP guyIt is completely doable to build a pipeline or pipelines from Massena, NY to, say, California.
How big would such a pipeline have to be to be useful, never mind economically feasible?
The aqueducts feeding NYC from the Catskills are big enough to drive a bus through. And they're building more. Is this St Lawrence pipeline going to be buried, or tunnelled?
Significant amounts of water are already drawn off Lake Ontario, and appropriate water levels on the St Lawrence River are crucial to both maritime and recreational use. There are already problems in that regard from natural cycles.
Taking millions of gallons out of the St Lawrence above Montreal is going to have an effect on navigation and a host of other factors.
Ulrich Desalination of ocean water might be cheaper..
In addition to being more energy efficient. With the latest reverse osmosis (RO) membranes, the energy needed to produce a gallon of fresh water from sea water is less than what it takes to pump it over the Tehachapi's. It would certainly take less energy than shipping the water from the Mississippi.
There's a 50,000 acre-foot per year RO plant that will be opening soon in Carlsbad, took close to a decade to get the permitting completed. One of the hold-ups was the amount of marine life that would be killed by the seawater intakes - would have been interesting to compare how many Delta smelt would have been killed by taking an equivalent amount of water from the Sacramento delta.
- Erik
The Great Lakes are the largest consentrated supply of fresh water in the world. Pristine and untouched except by native Americans until the discovery and settlement of the North American Continent by European people just some 300 years ago. The pure runnoff of the glaciers of millions of years ago. Cool fresh water - oceans of it to play in! The mighty ocean liners could bathe in its beauty!
Since that time much of it has been severely ravaged by industrial waste and farm chemical "run off."
I remember in the 1969 when the Cuyahoga river in Ohio caught of fire from the oil pollution. It was the 13th time in 75 years and was the cause of the US Congress creating the EPA - Enviornmental Protection Act. Lake Erie could not be navagated because of the 25 foot high soap foam run off from public sewers that caused ships to churn the phosphate rich soap water into mountains of un navagatable of soap foam. Unlike constant sewer effluent runnoff into the lakes of the past, presently the City of Detroit sewer system - like other American cities - when it cannot handle the public waste just dumps the overflow into the lakes. Just like they do and have done in Lake Erie or Lake Michigan or Lake Superior.
Yes Virginia, the bottom of Lake Erie has heavy metal concentration from industrial waste settled into the mud so many foot deep, that will take centuries to clear it out. And I'm not counting similar industrial run off from Duluth, Minnesota - Gary, Indiana - Milwaukee, Wisconson and Chicago, Illinois.
At Port Huron, Michigan and the Canadian chemical plants, the Mercury level in the water and river bottom makes the game fish inediable. Michigan Department of Natural Resources is constantly warning game fishermen not eat more than a certain amount - several fish per year. Unfortunately Lake St. Clair is one of the best producing game fishing areas in the world - Muskellunge, Pike, Walleye, Perch, Bass, Sturgon all are damaged by the heavy metal chemical content found in their body fats. And why is it I see so many poor people in Detroit feeding on the game fish from the Detroit River?
Of course, lets not forget that most famous of all toxic waste sights! The one we all live in mortal dread of - "The Love Canal" of Niagara Falls, New York! Its on the Niagara River just before the falls! The former city dump site and for Niagara Power Company and Hooker Chemical which set the very standard for public negligence. Residents of Niagara Falls were found to have highly abnormal birth defects - enlarged feet, hands, legs and heads, and a high miscarriage rate with mental retardation of children. The ground would not grow grass, flowers or any living thing - right where people were living in homes - with 55 gallon drums of chemicals working up from the ground and where residential foundations grew with indescribable black mould. This ground, this river so polluted with so many chemicals - today 50 years later it is still considered a "public health time bomb."
If that was not enough - "Love Canal Two!" - brought to you by the same industrial neglegence - today in Detroit - a similar clean up is going on! Thats right boys and girls another large toxic spill in St. Clair Shores, Michigan in the 1970's when that nasty old PCB transformer oil - nasty dangerous Detroit Edison carcinogenic transformer oil was disposed of over a period of years by dumping it into the 10 Mile Canal of Lake St. Clair. Yes, that's right "It's the New Love Canal! all over again!" - for you and I as residents living in this recreational boating wonderland - us - we - you and I? - encountering high rates of cancers and mortality again! - and the property in that area is un marketable! - especially not if they find out! And our local excitement for this year will be watching the Federal govenment spend billions digging up the public streets in a huge clean up - hauling that nasty old toxic lake bed away!
Because we so much enjoy living and playing in a toxic dump site that was once the campground of native peoples and French fur trappers like Cadillac. Ah! yes! what was once the boating play place for "rum running millionares of the 1920's" - with all the natural ambiance of the Detroit River industrial centrer for oil refineries, chemical production and steel production for the past 100 years!
O mon dois!
Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo in Ohio, and Sarnia, Hamilton, and Toronto, Ontario all helping add their 10% - "Oh water wonderland of the world!"
O Mon Dois!
-------------------------------
Yah thats right! ship that water to Califorina - the Valley will surely love it for irrigation and drinking water. Up till now we have only had to deal with Mexican workers watering the vegetables with human waste! And, Oh yah! - by the way when California gets it's share - well then? - how you gonna say no to Texas, Arizona, Mexico, Utah, Africa, Arabia? - And when you drain down that once pristine watershed of the Great Lakes - well what then?
Let em die of thirst in California! - Want the water? - or what's left of it, go live in New York - cause we don't care how they "do it" in California!. People in Michigan got something to say about this too! It's our polluted cesspool and we ain't givin it up! Cause that's what they make shotguns for!
Doc
K. P. HarrierK. P. Harrier wrote the following post 2 hours ago: When I was a kid in the 1950’s there was a Southern Pacific (Pacific Electric) tank car train that would operate up and down the streets of San Bernardino (CA) to and from a place up in the mountains. Reportedly, the cars were water cars. Obviously, it wasn’t an economically beneficial situation because the trains and tracks are no more.
From: http://www.oocities.org/gatewaycityca/
"the Arrowhead line was also used for various freight shipments. The most famous being the bottling and transport of Arrowhead Springs water from a resevoir near the hotel. In fact, after the official abandonment of passenger service on the line in 1941, and trolley cars no longer ventured up the steep and winding line, the "water train" became the sole user. The line was eventually abandoned completely and the track was removed in 1960."
From Wikipiedia
"Arrowhead Water, also known as Arrowhead Mountain Spring Water, is a brand of drinking water that is sold in the western United States, particularly in Arizona, the Northwest, and in California"
"In 1909, The Arrowhead Springs Company was formed and the company's water products were marketed in Southern California. The water was transported from Arrowhead Springs, north of San Bernardino, California, to Los Angeles in glass-lined railroad tank cars."
The Brand still exists:
http://www.nestle-watersna.com/en/bottled-water-brands/arrowhead
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Excerpt from Railway Age article, “If Crude by Rail, Why Not Water?” by Bruce Kelly, Contributing Editor, January 31, 2014
http://railway245.rssing.com/chan-16724407/all_p33.html
NKP guy I think the very serious problem of water shortages out West could be allieviated, not by water trains, but by a suggestion I once saw offered by a hydrologist. Please take out your maps. The Great Lakes funnel into the St. Lawrence River not far from Massena, NY. At this point the fresh waters of the lakes start running into salt water. In other words, the fresh water from this point on gets "wasted." It is completely doable to build a pipeline or pipelines from Massena, NY to, say, California.
The Great Lakes funnel into the St. Lawrence River not far from Massena, NY. At this point the fresh waters of the lakes start running into salt water. In other words, the fresh water from this point on gets "wasted." It is completely doable to build a pipeline or pipelines from Massena, NY to, say, California.
Significantly reduce the outflow of water from the Great Lakes around Massena (Something you'd have to do in order to get a volume that would make a difference out West), and I assume that the point where the water starts to turn to saltwater up past Montreal will shift Westward as the waters of the Atlantic reach further inland.
I can just hear Save the River.
ATSF/BNSF still run water out into the desert in tank cars (some still had rivets into the 1990's) in the M/W fleet (potable water & non-potable) to wunnerfull places like Newberry Springs, Ludlow and out on A&C at Cadiz (ex-ATSF branch)...large scale version of this would be a nightmare.
Water trains (or pipelines) aren't going to address the issue, especially when you consider the amount of water that's needed, especially for agriculture.
Federal courts have been involed in a lengthy lawsuit over Colorado River water for years and years, with no judgement rendered that is going to satisfy all the litigants; so there's no chance of California ever getting more water from the Colorado.
Remember the Aral Sea - Russia's 4th largest lake
http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/worlds-4th-largest-lake-is-now-90-dried-up-pics-video.html
CSSHEGEWISCH Water trains (or pipelines) aren't going to address the issue, especially when you consider the amount of water that's needed, especially for agriculture. I suggest that there is as much water on this planet in 2015 as there was 5000 years ago. If that is acknowleged then the apparent solution for those locations that now have a shortage (most are adjacent to the oceans) is to desalineate the sea water and discontinue taking water from its natural coarse.
I suggest that there is as much water on this planet in 2015 as there was 5000 years ago. If that is acknowleged then the apparent solution for those locations that now have a shortage (most are adjacent to the oceans) is to desalineate the sea water and discontinue taking water from its natural coarse.
I'm sure there's plenty of water moving economically on the railroads right now...in plastic drinking bottles!
So, you COULD run tank cars from where they bottle it now, to where it's consumed, and just bottle it there.
This would work until everyone wakes up and realizes their local water is just as potable as water from some other municipality.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
It isn't just drinking water and irrigation. Let's not forget those other neccesities of life like golf courses in Palm Springs and Las Vegas that must be kept green. Not to mention all those fountains in Las Vegas. Drinking water? Industry has almost successfully turned it into a commodity like gasoline and not a human right. Bottled water, anyone? That's the future, Mister Gitts!
overall The thinking is that water could be taken from the Mississippi region, where there is too much, to California, where there is too little.
If you really want some interesting reading, look back into the internal conflicts California has had in trying to manage it's water woes internally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Water_Wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California
What you are talking about is that octopuss' ambitions to become a nation-wide menace.
I lived in The Bay area a number of years where there was aggressive water rationing in practice due to water shortages caused by water export to Los Angeles.
Then, I moved to LA, and was shocked to see people hosing off their sidewalks who had never even heard there was a water shortage in California.
Now evidently those buzzards come home to roost?
The only good reason I could see to send water to California would be as an appeasement to keep the masses out there, so they won't move east looking for water.
Tell these thirsty people to grow their own water, and tell the NIMBY's who do not want desalinization plants built to stop keeping their grass green and put some effort into sweeping their walks.
Johnny
It seems to me that a hypothetical proposal to take free water that's about to be "wasted" by becomming salt water in the St. Lawrence River and selling it on the free market to anyone Out West who needs it via a privately owned or even TVA-type owned pipeline would be an idea that would be embraced by all the free market, no-socialism voices one often hears. Why not? We're not talking about emptying the lakes or even affecting them; we're talking about a big flowing river. I bet if whoever took the water gave some of the profits to the various states involved (I'll let the accountants figure out the give-back formula) there would be some real support. Simply put: We have it in abundance; they are willing to pay for it.
It's disturbing, though, to read the negative comments, along the lines of People Out West deserve this drought because they have swimming pools, Las Vegas, wash the sidewalks, and waste water like crazy compared to us conservative (or lucky) folks Back East. Then there's the idea that Great Lakes water is too polluted to be used even on crops (note the comment about agricultural workers!), as if what we drink in these states is OK for us but the same water in a pipeline would be contaminated beyond salvation.
If fracking is OK, if oil derricks everywhere is OK, if coal plants are OK, if free enterprise is OK, if the Keystone Pipeline is OK.....why is a hypothetical water pipeline beyond the pale?
NKP - Mankind seems to love to live in places that wouldn't otherwise support life. A city like Lost Wages goes against common sense - why build a city someplace where you have to import everything. I know - Lake Mead had a lot to do with it. And still does.
If cities like LA, Phoenix, and Las Vegas were forced to live "within their means" a lot of people would have to find new place to live. And that's not taking into account the recent drought conditions in the area.
Convicted One overall The thinking is that water could be taken from the Mississippi region, where there is too much, to California, where there is too little. If you really want some interesting reading, look back into the internal conflicts California has had in trying to manage it's water woes internally. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Water_Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California What you are talking about is that octopuss' ambitions to become a nation-wide menace. I lived in The Bay area a number of years where there was aggressive water rationing in practice due to water shortages caused by water export to Los Angeles. Then, I moved to LA, and was shocked to see people hosing off their sidewalks who had never even heard there was a water shortage in California. Now evidently those buzzards come home to roost? The only good reason I could see to send water to California would be as an appeasement to keep the masses out there, so they won't move east looking for water.
If I left California, it would be for much better reasons than a lack of water. But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years. Doing that is a good way to bring on the water police here.
One of the guiding principles of Gov. Brown (Sr.) 's California Water Project of 55 years ago, was that Southern California water users, in addition to paying all the cost of building and operating the system, would only be drawing off the excess over and above the needs of the northern part of the state. Most years, the northern part has VASTLY more than it needs (ask anyone who's worked for the NWP RR) and, along with getting huge new flood-control facilities purchased by the southern users, really was not supposed to be affected in any negative way.
This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold, and the system would not have been built without something to buy political support in the northern half of the state, where a great number of people would rather see the excess run into the Pacific than routed south.
As for the future, droughts (like heavy-rain seasons) don't last forever, but California's surprisingly continuous population growth will contine to put pressure on the water supply.
Seawater conversion, like that coming on line in San Diego County, is a hopeful development. But without sounding too absurd, I can imagine NIMBYs wondering if the stuff we remove from the seawater, and return to the Pacific, will be polluting our ocean.
garyla Seawater conversion, like that coming on line in San Diego County, is a hopeful development. But without sounding too absurd, I can imagine NIMBYs wondering if the stuff we remove from the seawater, and return to the Pacific, will be polluting our ocean.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingDon't be silly. Just package up what's left over and sell it as some exotic sea salt.
Yeah - seems like everybody's got some sort of sea salt concoction they're pushing. It's even in dark chocolate!
Win/Win!
Well, as long as we're talking about far out, off-topic stuff that will never happen, consider this pie in the sky, no less "out there" than the original post- Here's the plan. Run a ginormous pipe from the Pacific Ocean in California east until it crosses the mountains to the desert areas. Once over the ridge, use the downward, eastern flowing water to produce hydroelectric power to offset the power needed to pump the sea water up the hill in the first place. As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. As millions and millions of gallons of sea water turn into water vapor above the desert, the climate in the desert begins to change. That water has to go somewhere, and eventually turns into rain. The desert becomes green. The desert also cools- helping global warming of course. And the displaced water lowers the sea level, so the polar bears- and all of Florida- don't drown. It's a win-win-win situation. What could go wrong with that plan to save the planet?
Murphy Siding Well, as long as we're talking about far out, off-topic stuff that will never happen, consider this pie in the sky, no less "out there" than trainfinder's original post- Here's the plan. Run a ginormous pipe from the Pacific Ocean in California east until it crosses the mountains to the desert areas. Once over the ridge, use the downward, eastern flowing water to produce hydroelectric power to offset the power needed to pump the sea water up the hill in the first place. As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. As millions and millions of gallons of sea water turn into water vapor above the desert, the climate in the desert begins to change. That water has to go somewhere, and eventually turns into rain. The desert becomes green. The desert also cools- helping global warming of course. And the displaced water lowers the sea level, so the polar bears- and all of Florida- don't drown. It's a win-win-win situation. What could go wrong with that plan to save the planet?
Well, as long as we're talking about far out, off-topic stuff that will never happen, consider this pie in the sky, no less "out there" than trainfinder's original post- Here's the plan. Run a ginormous pipe from the Pacific Ocean in California east until it crosses the mountains to the desert areas. Once over the ridge, use the downward, eastern flowing water to produce hydroelectric power to offset the power needed to pump the sea water up the hill in the first place. As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. As millions and millions of gallons of sea water turn into water vapor above the desert, the climate in the desert begins to change. That water has to go somewhere, and eventually turns into rain. The desert becomes green. The desert also cools- helping global warming of course. And the displaced water lowers the sea level, so the polar bears- and all of Florida- don't drown. It's a win-win-win situation. What could go wrong with that plan to save the planet?
Obviously, it's not perpetual motion gig, as the hydro electricity produced doesn't equal the energy needed to lift the sea water in the first place. Now, once you build the windmills, to take advantage of the wind produced by the evaporating sea water's affect on the local atmosphere, then you're on the right track.
Congratulations! you burst the bubble. Though, it is beginning to look like Rube Goldberg.
NO!!! and NO!!!..... Great Lakes States and their citys have been on the ropes for far too long. Look how empty the downtowns of Toledo, Buffalo,Erie,Detroit, Superior are....We need people and industry to move here and Google and Silicon Valley are quietly moving operations here do to a ample supply of fresh water and clean electricity. here as in Niagara Falls and parts of Erie are seeing some growth.
They have a whole ocean in their front yard. Desalinate .
Murphy Siding As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt.
They already have huge evaporation/sea-salt plants in Mexico, where the attendant labor is cheaper. So their exotics would undercut yours.
garyla But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years.
true, I left the lower west coast in 2003. But the garden hoses were still gushing back then
garylaThis may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold,
When I lived in the Bay Area, they were restricting your right to water lawns and wash cars based upon your house address (even-odd, etc) ...So much for "low impact" forecasting.
The Devil in the details that caught my fascination was that scarce water was being siphoned out of Northern California reserves to serve Southern California needs. Northern Californians were being forced to conserve, while the beneficiaries of the aforementioned siphoning had no idea that water was in short supply.
Evidently someone had decided that Southern California had become "Too big to fail" ?
NKP guyIt's disturbing, though, to read the negative comments, along the lines of People Out West deserve this drought because they have swimming pools, Las Vegas, wash the sidewalks, and waste water like crazy compared to
It's likewise "disturbing" to see bad history tryin g to repeat. [the way the ambitions of people who will NEVER be happy have already conspired to take water away from one "good cause" and subvert it into their "good cause" just because they see theirs as more deserving.]
Convicted One Murphy Siding As the sea water runs downhill to the east into the desert, it evaporates and eventually, the river of sea water fizzles out into nothing by way of evaporation. What's left behind in the streambed gets processed into exotic brands of sea salt. They already have huge evaporation/sea-salt plants in Mexico, where the attendant labor is cheaper. So their exotics would undercut yours.
Murphy Siding Surely adroit marketing and truth in advertising would tip the scales? Who would buy ordinary, run of the mill, Mexican sea salt, when they could purchase *Rich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt*?
Surely adroit marketing and truth in advertising would tip the scales? Who would buy ordinary, run of the mill, Mexican sea salt, when they could purchase *Rich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt*?
Just stamp it "Imported"
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Murphy SidingRich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt
For some reason, Ricardo Monatalban's image flashed in my mind as i read that.
Paul of Covington Murphy Siding Surely adroit marketing and truth in advertising would tip the scales? Who would buy ordinary, run of the mill, Mexican sea salt, when they could purchase *Rich, Corinthian, Glutten Free, Free Range, Natural California Sea Salt*? Just stamp it "Imported"
Convicted One garyla But I don't recall the last time I saw anyone hosing off a sidewalk or driveway around Los Angeles; it has to have been years. true, I left the lower west coast in 2003. But the garden hoses were still gushing back then garyla This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold, When I lived in the Bay Area, they were restricting your right to water lawns and wash cars based upon your house address (even-odd, etc) ...So much for "low impact" forecasting. The Devil in the details that caught my fascination was that scarce water was being siphoned out of Northern California reserves to serve Southern California needs. Northern Californians were being forced to conserve, while the beneficiaries of the aforementioned siphoning had no idea that water was in short supply. Evidently someone had decided that Southern California had become "Too big to fail" ?
garyla This may not be how it worked out, but that was how it was sold,
Think of it all as delayed punishment for Horace Stoneham's S. F. Giants trying to slow down Maury Wills by soaking the basepaths before the 1962 NL playoffs vs. the Dodgers.
garyla Think of it all as delayed punishment for Horace Stoneham's S. F. Giants trying to slow down Maury Wills by soaking the basepaths before the 1962 NL playoffs vs. the Dodgers.
Of the crime of Walter O'Malley, reviled betrayer of Brooklyn.
The Duke, Gil and Peewee
I like the Arabic idea!
Oil rich Sheikhs going after ice - going to Antarctica and capturing "iceburgs" then towing them in for the fresh water. What we need is to "haul the ice by ship" - get it from the pole while it lasts - nature's fresh water freezer.
Send it by ship to California - if it melts its still water - just use ships untainted by chemicals and oil!
No pipeline spills either!
Doc.
Let's run some numbers... Train size of 100 cars with 104 tons each works out to 2,500,000 gallons. Assume 25,000,000 people in area served by the water trains (this is less than the population of alifornia). Ten trains a day will get 1 gallon of water person per day. The strictest rationing the I recall for a large water district was 49 gallons a day per person in Marin Count in 1977. 490 trains per day doesn't sound practical.
As for shiping ater from the Mississippi or Great Lakes, the energy requirements of pumping over the Continental Divide would dictate running a level tunnel from wherever the water is collected to California. This would be within the bounds of current technology, but the cost would be a deal killer.
The energy requirements for reverse osmosis is about the same as pumping water over a 3,000' summit. This would be about the same as shipping by rail a bit 100 miles on an FEC flat main line (energy includes empty return trip).
Dr D I like the Arabic idea! Oil rich Sheikhs going after ice - going to Antarctica and capturing "iceburgs" then towing them in for the fresh water. What we need is to "haul the ice by ship" - get it from the pole while it lasts - nature's fresh water freezer. Send it by ship to California - if it melts its still water - just use ships untainted by chemicals and oil! No pipeline spills either! Doc.
And if they sink - meh!
There's something about 490 trains a day in each direction just carrying water (and empties) that gets my attention. Just imagine all those trains in addition to the current traffic! How many tracks would that require? And would the Zephyr still be way late?
Or we could fly the water in. How many planes would be needed @ 25 million gal. daily?
See? Sometimes physics can be fun.
Call me crazy, but I think economics would justify a pipeline long before 490 daily trains. Though, that also should justify electrication of the mainline at those numbers, just so they could maintain headway between trains.
narig01You can not use tank cars that have been used to haul oil or other chemicals to haul water for human or any other food grade uses. (Like irrigation water or animals use) . Food grade tanks can only be used to haul what we eat and drink. Once something goes in the tank that is not consumable like oil or chemicals you can not use it for food, (or water). Rgds IGN
There's no need to use it directly for potable water. You can use it for the intake to a water treatment plant.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Convicted OneIt's likewise "disturbing" to see bad history tryin g to repeat. [the way the ambitions of people who will NEVER be happy have already conspired to take water away from one "good cause" and subvert it into their "good cause" just because they see theirs as more deserving.]
Many beleive that the next great wars in this world will not be fought over oil - but for water.
One of the upcoming generations will eventually have to make some hard decisions about where people will be allowed to live. Probably won't be any of the current ones, but it will have to be done some day.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
In our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted.
rrnut282 Call me crazy, but I think economics would justify a pipeline long before 490 daily trains. Though, that also should justify electrication of the mainline at those numbers, just so they could maintain headway between trains.
I don't think you're crazy, and I would be really, really surprised if economics would justify trains over a pipeline. The one exception would be a much smaller population needing emergency water where there was already sufficient track capacity and the emergency was expected to be short lived.
For an area near the coast, desalinizing water seems to be the way to go.
gardendance narig01 You can not use tank cars that have been used to haul oil or other chemicals to haul water for human or any other food grade uses. (Like irrigation water or animals use) . Food grade tanks can only be used to haul what we eat and drink. Once something goes in the tank that is not consumable like oil or chemicals you can not use it for food, (or water). Rgds IGN There's no need to use it directly for potable water. You can use it for the intake to a water treatment plant.
narig01 You can not use tank cars that have been used to haul oil or other chemicals to haul water for human or any other food grade uses. (Like irrigation water or animals use) . Food grade tanks can only be used to haul what we eat and drink. Once something goes in the tank that is not consumable like oil or chemicals you can not use it for food, (or water). Rgds IGN
BaltACDIn our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted.
Indeed. I live just a few miles from billions of gallons of fresh water. One village near here used to take water direct from the lake, with only filtering and minimal treatment before it entered their water mains. And they got awards for the quality of their water...
tree68 BaltACD In our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted. Indeed. I live just a few miles from billions of gallons of fresh water. One village near here used to take water direct from the lake, with only filtering and minimal treatment before it entered their water mains. And they got awards for the quality of their water...
BaltACD In our lives in the US and North America in general (includes Canada) we have taken clean, safe water for granted.
Don't know if they still do, but in 1965 Lake George, NY did that. The lake was so clear you could clearly see the bottom through 30 feet of water.
The flaw in your logic is that you are calculating TOTAL water consumption, and using that figure as what needs to be transported in. California's inadequate water supply simply needs to be SUPPLIMENTED, NOT REPLACED, sure California would LOVE to get that much MORE water supplied, that is not what is needed.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
[/quote]
Portland, OR still does draw water out of the Bull Run reservoir system, but those lakes are OFF LIMITS to the general public, only a few guided tours per year.
It is about the Best water in the country. I'll bet the Fishin is GREAT, but I'll NEVER know.
To read the full context of last year's commentary on water by rail at Railway Age, go here:
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/bruce-kelly/if-crude-by-rail-why-not-water.html
Note that I made it clear that WBR is not going to solve all of CA's drought conditions, but could at least bring some measure of relief to some of the hardest hit areas. Nodoby should try crunching numbers to figure out how many tanks cars or how many trains per day it would take to maintain a normal/average level of water consumption throughout the state. This would be an emergency/relief-based operation capable of only limited impact. And it's nothing new. In the past, WBR has been used to combat drought situations in Australia, Israel, India, and even Illinois.
Following the RA piece, we heard from one railcar consultant who estimated a cost of $6,000 to $8,000 (per car) to blast and reline the interior of existing DOT-111s. When I wrote the piece, the notion of utilizing DOT-111s retired from crude service was in the back of my mind, but RA Editor in Chief Bill Vantuono jumped right in and said those cars should indeed be transitioned into water service.
The chairman of one of the Class I railroads serving California told me a panel has been formed to explore WBR; one challenge has been to figure out how to cover its costs. After seeing the kind of money that California has recently allocated to drought relief, and knowing that delivery of water to municipalities, farms, and store shelves in California is already a for-profit business, you'd think someone could figure out how to pool the start-up funds and get WBR rolling to those who need it most and/or are willing to pay for it.
challenger3980Portland, OR still does draw water out of the Bull Run reservoir system, but those lakes are OFF LIMITS to the general public, only a few guided tours per year.
The lake I refer to is Ontario - it'd be a little hard to limit access...
Ship Boston's and New Englands snow!
Bruce Kelly Note that I made it clear that WBR is not going to solve all of CA's drought conditions, but could at least bring some measure of relief to some of the hardest hit areas. Nodoby should try crunching numbers to figure out how many tanks cars or how many trains per day it would take to maintain a normal/average level of water consumption throughout the state. This would be an emergency/relief-based operation capable of only limited impact. And it's nothing new. In the past, WBR has been used to combat drought situations in Australia, Israel, India, and even Illinois.
Bruce,
The 49 gallons per person per day was the tightest water ration that I remember for a moderately large water district in my almost 6 decades of living in California. It is nowhere near a normal consumption level, though would be a bit easier with low flow toilets and showers.
WBR may have its place in the California drought, but I'd guess it would be for a relatively limited portion of the state. There's just too many people living here to make WBR useful for the whole state.
A quick comparison - the Poseidon plant under construction in Carlsbad should produce 50,000 acre-feet per year, this is the equivalent of 18 trains per day carrying 10,000 tons of water.
Murphy Siding If you're going to have to take water to a treatment plant, you might as well take salt water to a treatment plant and save the 2000 miles rail shipment.
If you're going to have to take water to a treatment plant, you might as well take salt water to a treatment plant and save the 2000 miles rail shipment.
I agree, but I wasn't addressing the practicality of the water train, but rather narig01's saying humans can't drink the water from an oil tank car.
However the practicality can change. If the oil tank cars have to get cleaned anyway, and I don't know if oil tank cars need cleaning, and the water treatment facility's reservoir is between the refinery that's producing the oil and the place to which they deliver the oil.
But those are several requirements unlikely to line up.
Bring people and industry were the water is like to the Miss River and the Great Lakes.Not water to the people that would abuse it. Matter of fact Great Slave Lake in Canada is devoid of people and sparcly setteled
BaltACD Ship Boston's and New Englands snow!
Um how much petro are we going to burn to move h2o?
California goes through cycles of drought followed heavy rains and snow fall (in the mountains) and an abundance of water. It is quite likely before much could be done to bring water in by pipe or by rail, there will be the possibly of masive flooding in many areas of the State.
The State's problems are primairly caused by the inability tp store enough water in times of plenty for use in the lean times.
DSchmitt California goes through cycles of drought followed heavy rains and snow fall (in the mountains) and an abundance of water. It is quite likely before much could be done to bring water in by pipe or by rail, there will be the possibly of masive flooding in many areas of the State. The State's problems are primairly caused by the inability tp store enough water in times of plenty for use in the lean times.
Over the years theere have been proposals to tow icebergs from the Arctic down the Pacific Coast to be used for fresh water supply in California and the adjoining states.
Maybe it's time to build the Alaska-Canada rail link and ship the ice by reefer!
PS.my suggestion is best taken with a large grain of salt (a by-product of desalinization)
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Just purchases 22 oz of '100% Pure California Sea Salt'
"From the sparkling shores of the Pacific...comes Diamond Crystal sea salt. Inspired by the delicious cuisene of the Napa Valley, these all-natural salt crystals will bring out the true flavors of your choicest ingredients."
Don't know if it is from any desalination projects and it is not Corinthian.
[Heated up the link for you]
Friday, January 31, 2014
Written by Bruce Kelly, Contributing Editor
See linked article @
Bruce, seems you were on top of that idea, early!
BaltACD Just purchases 22 oz of '100% Pure California Sea Salt' "From the sparkling shores of the Pacific...comes Diamond Crystal sea salt. Inspired by the delicious cuisene of the Napa Valley, these all-natural salt crystals will bring out the true flavors of your choicest ingredients." Don't know if it is from any desalination projects and it is not Corinthian.
Hopefully, they filter out the debris from the Fukushima reactor disaster.
Murphy Siding Perhaps during the flooding periods, the trains could be used to ship water out of California and take it to the Great Lakes, or maybe the Mississippi River?
You do not know what you are asking, porting water from one watershed to another. WE had a plan to build a canal from Lake Sakakaweah to the eastern part of the state. CANADA had a caniption! (East side of the state flows north into Canada, you know).
Devils Lake is now rising, it has taken over farms (farmer must still pay the taxes on land that is under the lake) roads have been elevated. Railroads have been elevated. We tried to build a diversion to dump lake water into the Sheyanne River, Canada Had coniptions. (Devils Lake is a Saline lake with no natural outlet).
Of course if nothing is done it will over flow into Stump Lake, (no wait, it already did that, Stump Lake is now part of Devils Lake) and if it rises any higher it will flow int, you, you guessed it, the Sheyanne River! Then what will the Canadians say.
Train Water into California. And where will that water come from? The Grape Lakes? Nothing west of the Mississippi has anything to spare. (Gotta use all of the extra water for Fracking--and no, you cannot use salt water for that!)
Hey we got a small lake on our property. Selling the water for fracking earns us more money that selling the land. And we can sell the water every year, you can only sell the land once.
California is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh?
ROAR
BTW: Water IS politics, and always has been in the west.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
samfp1943 [Heated up the link for you] Friday, January 31, 2014 "If crude by rail, why not water?" Written by Bruce Kelly, Contributing Editor See linked article @ http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/bruce-kelly/if-crude-by-rail-why-not-water.html Bruce, seems you were on top of that idea, early!
Sure it *can* be done, if not enough for Arag, then at least enough to drink, and you can always use those old DOT 111 cars for that. Just rinse them out a bit
Seriously, the problem is shipping costs. Who is going to pay the freight on a train load of water. Oil has value, well water has value too, but for people used to free and/or cheap water charging them by the gallon is going to cause a revolt in that revolting state. ROAR
cacole Federal courts have been involed in a lengthy lawsuit over Colorado River water for years and years, with no judgement rendered that is going to satisfy all the litigants; so there's no chance of California ever getting more water from the Colorado.
Look at the Google overheads. The Colorado is DRY long before it gets to the sea. You can see the chanels that divert Colorado water to municipal and agracultural uses, and these too are DRY before they get to the sea.
BTW: What State Capitol is on the Colorado River.
"BTW: What State Capitol is on the Colorado River."
Austin, Texas, but not the same Colorado River.
SleeperN06 Interesting thread, I just wonder what they would do with all the salt if they filtered the water from the ocean. I’m just not sure there would be enough uses for that much salt. I guess the process would have to remain at the ocean side, but wouldn’t the salt concentration increase in the water around the plants?
The optimal site for a desal plant is on the coast, so the concentrated brine would be discharged back into the ocean. Ideally a desal plant would be co-sited with a power plant to allow the two facilities to share intake and discharge plumbing, which would also dilute the brine to closer to seawater salt concentrations.
My understanding is that the optimal discharge for a reverse osmosis plant is about twice the salinity of the intake water.
BroadwayLionCalifornia is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh? ROAR
Spoken like a true christian, eh "Brother".
Great Lakes? Nothing to spare west of the Mississippi?
The closest, most abundant, and most logical source of fresh water that also happens to be fronted by more than a hundred miles of Class I railroad on both sides, with connections leading straight to California, would be the lower/western end of the Columbia River. Even after churning past several hydro dams and being siphoned to irrigate the Inland Northwest's booming ag business, there's plenty of unused H20 emptying right into the ocean.
http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/386_flows_of_largest_u_s_rivers.html
Two key factors to making WBR feasible are minimizing the travel distance and minimizing the impact on other traffic. BNSF from the north bank of the Columbia and UP from the south bank could move water down into California at half the distance (or less) than it would take to move water from the Great Lakes. BNSF and UP lines between the PNW and California are presently not as congested as their east-west lines through Spokane, Hinkle, Barstow, etc.
Bruce Kelly Great Lakes? Nothing to spare west of the Mississippi? The closest, most abundant, and most logical source of fresh water that also happens to be fronted by more than a hundred miles of Class I railroad on both sides, with connections leading straight to California, would be the lower/western end of the Columbia River. Even after churning past several hydro dams and being siphoned to irrigate the Inland Northwest's booming ag business, there's plenty of unused H20 emptying right into the ocean. http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/386_flows_of_largest_u_s_rivers.html Two key factors to making WBR feasible are minimizing the travel distance and minimizing the impact on other traffic. BNSF from the north bank of the Columbia and UP from the south bank could move water down into California at half the distance (or less) than it would take to move water from the Great Lakes. BNSF and UP lines between the PNW and California are presently not as congested as their east-west lines through Spokane, Hinkle, Barstow, etc.
And I wish you luck getting your hands on it. Folks up there may have other ideas.
Norm 48327 wrote:
I am almost 50 years old, and have been hearing Califorians ideas for getting the Columbia River, since I was a Kid, usually it involves canals and/or pipelines.
California is Welcome to the water from the Columbia River, AS LONG as they take it 15 miles WEST of Astoria, Oregon. This is the first time I have ever read of the idea of hauling it by rail.
A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live, having GREEN LAWNS and SWIMMING POOLS in every backyard is not realistic, yeah right we are talking about California, Guess I will go start writing my list to Santa, that is much more likely to be a worthwhile effort.
Norm48327Folks up there may have other ideas.
+1000
Currently, some of the environmentalists are trying to get some of the dams removed by claiming that they have decimated the Columbia salmon runs, while simultaneously decrying any fossil fuel port construction claiming that BNSF will spill coal and oil into the Columbia, killing all the bountiful fish.
there must be a way to get it cheaper from the pacific ocean. this day an age they should of figure out how to get the salt out of it somehow.
challenger3980AS LONG as they take it 15 miles WEST of Astoria,
Got it! How deep is it eight miles off shore?
challenger3980A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live
So you are suggesting that we pass laws saying where people can and cannot live? Considering that railfan sites are heavily dominated by conservative old men, this suggestion for more government regulation is akin to "man bites dog". More seriously I do think that desalination has a future, especially considering that the Northwestern states don,t consider the Columbia River "surplus water" anymore, whether it moves by canal, rail, barge, or on the wings of angels.
Deep enough that they can take plenty of water without worrying about running dry.
rdettmer there must be a way to get it cheaper from the pacific ocean. this day an age they should of figure out how to get the salt out of it somehow.
They do know how, but it takes a lot of money both to build, maintain, and operate a water distillation plant.
You're back to the dilemma just mentioned. The same people will complain about every aspect of it, while not wanting their own water consumption restricted in any way.
For instance, these things need a huge amount of electricity. That means burning something, wind turbines, solar panels, or the most logical, nuclear power.
Everyone wants their cake, and to eat it too. Nobody wants to make the sacrifice. They want the water, they just also want it to be magically delivered into their homes and businesses without anything happening in order to actually make it possible.
Leo_AmesEveryone wants their cake, and to eat it too. Nobody wants to make the sacrifice. They want the water, they just also want it to be magically delivered into their homes and businesses without anything happening in order to actually make it possible.
Everyone knows electricty appears magically at the outlet, water magically at the faucet.
challenger3980California is Welcome to the water from the Columbia River, AS LONG as they take it 15 miles WEST of Astoria, Oregon.
LION got the gist of your post without looking at the map, but him did look at the map anyway. So the Columbia Estuary? LION is from the city (NYC for those of you west of the Hudson) and him knows that the Hudson is saline almost up to Kingston, and Tidal all the way to Albany.
How much of the Columbia is Saline and/or tidal.
LION knows that the Hudson Canyon is quite a bit larger and deeper than the Grand Canyon (albeit most of the Hudson Canyon is deep in the Atlantic Ocean. Even there it is carved deeply by the flow from the Hudson River. LION saw no such coresponding canyon for the Colombia River, ergo, it doesn't have all that much water in it. Certainly not enough to supply California.
Desalinazation is the way for California to go, and we have a great abundance of energy in this country, Coal, Oil, Wind, Corn and if people would stop wetting their pants over it, nuclear. We CAN DO IT, after all, we are an exceptional people living in an exceptional country.
If other nations do it (Israel for 40% of its drinking water) we can do it too, but there is payment to be made, it is not free. It uses energy, takes up space, and costs money. But a guy has gotta drink you know.
Well, LION almost NEVER drinks water, Him drinks Diet Pepsi! : )
ouibejamn BroadwayLion California is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh? ROAR Spoken like a true christian, eh "Brother".
BroadwayLion California is up S Creak without a paddle. But not to worry, once the land is fully dried out it will be too light to suport itself and will fall off into the Pacific Ocean. So much for the Liberal voting base, eh? ROAR
Eh?
Welcome to the Forums. You got this here LION fairly well pegged fairly quickly. Your sarcasm and humor detectors need a little fine tuning, But LION has been to California (back in the '60s, him was in the Navy, you know) but him never much liked the place all that much. Yeah, the LION's political whit is sharp and pointed, but Railroads, Water, Energy and yes, even religion is nothing but politics.
Stop by the zoo, we got some extra wildebeests in the freezer.
BroadwayLion LION knows that the Hudson Canyon is quite a bit larger and deeper than the Grand Canyon (albeit most of the Hudson Canyon is deep in the Atlantic Ocean. Even there it is carved deeply by the flow from the Hudson River. LION saw no such coresponding canyon for the Colombia River, ergo, it doesn't have all that much water in it. Certainly not enough to supply California.
Does tectonic motion mean anything? I think the continental plates head away from the Atlantic and towards the Pacific, which if true would help Atlantic Rivers have bigger canyons into their ocean than Pacific flowing rivers.
BroadwayLion If other nations do it (Israel for 40% of its drinking water) we can do it too, but there is payment to be made, it is not free. It uses energy, takes up space, and costs money. But a guy has gotta drink you know. Well, LION almost NEVER drinks water, Him drinks Diet Pepsi! : )
BroadwayLion Well, LION almost NEVER drinks water, Him drinks Diet Pepsi! : )
I bet a large percentage of that Diet Pepsi is water.
ouibejamn challenger3980 A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live So you are suggesting that we pass laws saying where people can and cannot live? Considering that railfan sites are heavily dominated by conservative old men, this suggestion for more government regulation is akin to "man bites dog". More seriously I do think that desalination has a future, especially considering that the Northwestern states don,t consider the Columbia River "surplus water" anymore, whether it moves by canal, rail, barge, or on the wings of angels.
challenger3980 A MUCH more Realistic AND COST EFFECTIVE solution would be for California (and other water short areas) to sincerely limit population growth and ACCEPT that where they live
If You are not aware of it, we already DO, Pass Laws saying where people can, and can not live. Land use zoning laws, Urban Growth Boundries are just a couple of examples of that. My Sister has 23 ACRES of Billiard Table Flat, Open land, near North Powder, OR, that they can not even put a single house on. In other areas, Multi-Family housing is required, and single Family homes are prohibited by zoning rules, so we already do have those laws about where people are allowed to live, or not live, nothing new about that. The purpose of zoning laws is to get the best use from a piece of property, how would prohibiting Lawns and swimming pools be any different? It would be the same, just getting the best possible use of a limited resource, in this case it would be WATER, rather than Land.
Yes, Doug is right: almost every large municipality has zoning laws, some of which seem (to some people) to be absolutely ridiculous.
In times of drouth, municipalities are certainly justified in declaring that the non-essential use of water be curtailed. On the other hand, one can wonder about municipalities in water-scarce areas declaring that everyone's lawn should be kept green--one case in point: a few years back, a woman in Provo, Utah, was at least subjected to harassment (I have a memory that she was prosecuted) because she did not water her lawn. However, if one changes his lawn from water-thirsty to one that requires little water (not a cheap way to go), there is approval.
And, building a home in a river's flood plain should be forbidden--unless the builder accepts full responsibility for flood damage.
Another thing to consider in addition to, and probably related to, tectonic motion: volcanoes. I bet it's been a while since a volcano erupted near the Hudson River, but I'm sure there have been several recent, even in human lifespans, eruptions both on land and under water near the Columbia. Regardless of water flow or lack thereof, a good volcano or earthquake probably helps fill in a budding canyon.
Does your fancy web page show any other submarine canyons around the Pacific's ring of fire?
DeggestyAnd, building a home in a river's flood plain should be forbidden--unless the builder accepts full responsibility for flood damage.
Flood Plain??? In Bismarck some people built their homes in the Missouri River and then complained when they had to let extra water out of the dam.
GardendanceIf you go east from California eventually you find water, some of which is in California.
Charitably, where can you go east from California and find California?
Of course, technically, if you go far enough east, you'll go all the way around to the west coast of California. But you'll assuredly find water before you get there that way.
Lemme referees. If you go east from California's coast, which I think has its most populated areas, especially Los Angeles, eventually you'll find water, some of which is in California.
Really? I can't see it!
Lake Arrowhead, Silverwood Lake Recreational Area, Mojave River near Victorville, Whitewater River near Palm Springs, Lake Perris State Recreational Area, Lake Elsinore, Canyon Lake.
I'm not saying the state isn't already using that water, but those lakes and rivers are east of Los Angeles and still in California. I stand by my statement that perhaps Israel might not have much nearby fresh water, and so may need desalinization more than California.
The only water I know of east of Los Angeles is the Colorado River, which has been sucked almost completely dry by the time it reaches Yuma, AZ. The Salton Sea, east of San Diego, would require a desalination plant in order to be drinkable -- and there's not really much water in it, either. Legal battles over Colorado River water allocation have been going on for several years.
The lakes and rivers cited by gardendance are not enough water for one days' demand by the Los Angeles area.
cacoleThe lakes and rivers cited by gardendance are not enough water for one days' demand by the Los Angeles area.
That is what I thought. Well, there is nothing for it but to build some heavy duty water desalinization plants. And to run thses you will need more energy. It means that you (they) will have to hold their noses and promote coal, oil, gas, wind and nuclear, and pretty dam fast if they expect to have a drink of water tomorrow.
http://carlsbaddesal.com/
Convicted One The only good reason I could see to send water to California would be as an appeasement to keep the masses out there, so they won't move east looking for water.
ChuckAllen, TX
The real solution would be to take the purified sewage water and reuse it. Right now they just pump it into the ocean (or the nearest river). Sewage treatment workers like to gross out visitors by drinking the purified water.
The major obstacle is the 'ick' factor.
But towns along the Mississippi River are already recycling their water! Each town has its intake upstream from the town and discharges their treated sewage downstream. And, of course, the town downstream does the same thing all the way down the river!
If everyone from New York, New Jersey, Georgia, Florida, Texas, Colorado, Washington, and Oregon would just move back home, we'd have plenty of water. But they all come to California for the jobs.
Californians all know that when the Big One hits, the rest of the country will slide slowly into the Atlantic Ocean! It's already happening in Florida and the coastal islands off the Carolina coast…
Strength in diversity!
Several years ago Santa Barbara built a desal plant and promptly shut it down.
Many countries around Saudi Arabia mostly use desalinated water.
Californians think they are too good for it.
LLOYD A SWANSONSeveral years ago Santa Barbara built a desal plant and promptly shut it down. Many countries around Saudi Arabia mostly use desalinated water. Californians think they are too good for it.
Santa Barbara plant was shut down because the rains returned and it became cheaper (and less energy-intensive) to meet water needs from normal sources. As happens, they are actively restoring the desalination plant to service now.
In other news: "State officials are evaluating 15 proposed plants, from the Bay Area to Camp Pendleton in San Diego County. The largest desal plant in the Western Hemisphere will come online in Carlsbad later this year, providing water for 300,000 people in San Diego County at a cost of approximately $1 billion. Another plant proposed for Huntington Beach would be just as big."
How this equates to 'Californians think they are too good for it' escapes me. But I suppose it was a good one-liner.
Naturally it will cost a great deal to build (or do most anything else with) a desal plant in California, it will be expensive to run it, and various folks will have their reasons to complicate its design and operation. All that is easily observed. I don't find it surprising that high-cost alternatives to anything are not pursued when lower-cost solutions exist -- look at the history of Fischer-Tropsch in the United States.
Of course any potential potable water tank train operation will have to compete with Captain Kirk's incredible water pipeline scheme:
http://news.yahoo.com/actor-william-shatner-proposes-pipeline-solve-california-drought-182429748.html
Can't he just "Beam" the water from the Pacific Northwest to Cali?....
I live on the Mississippi which is the source of water for St. Louis and points downstream. We have the MO feeding into Miss just north of us. But there are times when water levels are low and I don't think it would be a good idea to pipe water to other areas. What happens if we have a drought and no water. We could ship water as needed but not have it as constant thing, because we have good and bad years too.
Part of CA problem is too many people with too little water in a concentrated area-like SO CA. It would be better to figure out some way to use the ocean water, lots of that available. I'm sure some smart Silicon Valley techs and scientists could come with an idea of how to do that.
carnej1 Of course any potential potable water tank train operation will have to compete with Captain Kirk's incredible water pipeline scheme: http://news.yahoo.com/actor-william-shatner-proposes-pipeline-solve-california-drought-182429748.html Can't he just "Beam" the water from the Pacific Northwest to Cali?....
Beam the Icebergs from the Atlantic shipping lanes to Lake Mead
Rough guess as to the transportation costs (only) of moving water by train - includes loading and unloading, but not the costs of acquiring the rights or buying it, nor the cost of overcoming the political oppostion to exporting the water:
Crude oil reportedly goes for about $6 to $12 per barrel for a haul of 1,000 to 2,000 miles. As the ratios are the same (1:2) for both sets of figures, let's use $6 for 1,000 miles. Since a barrel of oil is 42 gallons, that works out to $0.143 or 14.3 cents per gallon - just a fraction of the cost of bottled water in either 16 oz. or 1 gal. containers. ("Your Mileage May Vary")
- Paul North.
Buslist overall Can tank car trains carry water economically? There has been a discussion on NPR about building a pipeline from the Mississippi River valley, which is flooded at times, to California, which is in the midst of a drought. The thinking is that water could be taken from the Mississippi region, where there is too much, to California, where there is too little. Instead of building a pipeline, could the “111” tank cars now being taken out of oil service be used to transport water between these two places? Obviously, if there was a wreck, water would be harmless How about people move from water poor regions to water rich regions?
Not all of us have an entitlement mentality....
As I said before, there is less energy needed to get water from reverse osmosis with the newest membranes than pumping it over the Tehachapi's. Getting water from the Pacific Northwest or the Mississippi or Missouri rivers would be even more energy intensive.
Paul_D_North_Jr Crude oil reportedly goes for about $6 to $12 per barrel for a haul of 1,000 to 2,000 miles. As the ratios are the same (1:2) for both sets of figures, let's use $6 for 1,000 miles. Since a barrel of oil is 42 gallons, that works out to $0.143 or 14.3 cents per gallon - just a fraction of the cost of bottled water in either 16 oz. or 1 gal. containers. ("Your Mileage May Vary") - Paul North.
Paul, I think it'd be a big marketing hurdle to convince folks that Mississippi river water should demand the same prices as bottled water "from crystal pure mountain springs".
erikem As I said before, there is less energy needed to get water from reverse osmosis with the newest membranes than pumping it over the Tehachapi's. Getting water from the Pacific Northwest or the Mississippi or Missouri rivers would be even more energy intensive.
But I expect that it's not too energy intensive if it's a backhaul in which empty tank cars have to return from the Mississippi or Missouri rivers anyway. Unfortunately I suspect it's more a case of loaded oil trains from Texas or Montana going to places just shy of Los Angeles's oil fields, and possibly just shy of the mountains. Plus as others have pointed out we might need extra treatment to decontaminate water from an oil tanker's backhaul.
gardendancePlus as others have pointed out we might need extra treatment to decontaminate water from an oil tanker's backhaul.
With the transition to new oil tankers, there will be a surplus of DOT 111s, once cleaned these can be dedicated to water. Besides, water and oil do not mix unless you are making mayonasse. But they do not transport mayonasse in tank cars anymore, ever since the Mexicans opened a draw bridge and sent a train of mayonasse in to the harbor. They Sinka de Mayo.
NKP guy I think the very serious problem of water shortages out West could be allieviated, not by water trains, but by a suggestion I once saw offered by a hydrologist. Please take out your maps. The Great Lakes funnel into the St. Lawrence River not far from Massena, NY. At this point the fresh waters of the lakes start running into salt water. In other words, the fresh water from this point on gets "wasted." It is completely doable to build a pipeline or pipelines from Massena, NY to, say, California. Taking this water from the St. Lawrence River would not violate our (fine) treaties with the Dominion of the North and would turn millions of gallons of fresh water from a resource about to be wasted (salted) into a valuable, usable natural resource by our countrymen who need it and would pay for it. I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing the Atlantic needs more water to be salted. Is this a doable project? It depends. It would be to men like Theodore Roosevelt or Franklin Roosevelt, or men like Albert Norris or those who built the TVA. Dangers? Sure; imagine news reports saying, "Pipeline breaks: one million gallons of fresh water spills onto the Great Plains." Take a look at your maps. Then realize the paralyzed country we live in, and with a sigh turn the page as the West slowly burns up for yet another year....needlessly. Just a thought, If you pull water from the St. Lawrence just before the salt water takes over, wouldn't that cause the salt water to migrate upriver. Thus requiring the intake to be moved periodically?
A Water Pipe? From New York to California?
LION does not think so, and this is because your LION knows better.
This is the inside of NYC Water Tunnel No. 3. It has been under construction since 1970 and it is supposed to be finished in 2020. It is about 20 miles long from the Croton Resivoir to Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn and Eastern Queens.
Fifty YEARS to build a tunnel 20 miles long and 500' deep through the bedrock of Manhattan, look at the size of that thing. All to serve just three counties. You cannot build that across the country. Most of the country does not have any bedrock to drill through. And you are going to serve southern California with this thing. Last time I looke there are more than three counties in couthern California.
Let me tell you, it is far cheaper and more efficient to build desalinization plants than to take this stuff across the country. And those plants can be built before the next ice age! Think about that. Instead of looking at a map, look at the engineering and costs involved. Even water by rail is a fantasy. Sad fact is water and California is an oxymoron.
More on the Water Tunnel is here and there.
Here is the Southwest Water Authority project in North Dakota. You can see that it is a big business, all sprouted up in the last 20 years, the largest pipes are 3' in diameter and were burried in one place on our own land. The Raw pipe passes through our land on its way to the treatment plant in Dickinson, and then returns in smaller 1' diameter pipes to the cities and towns as shown. It serves south west North Dakota. That is not a lot of people. You could put the entire population of Adams County on an IRT train in Queens, and the rest of the passengers on that train would not notice the difference.
There are pumping stations and resivour tanks all over the place. Cross Country, LION thinks not.
Please pass the Mayo.
When it comes to water - I don't believe any of us understand just how much water gets used in out daily lives. Every flush is 2 gallons. A shower???? A bath??? Running the dishwasher???? Using the washing machine per load???? Watering the lawn/plants???? Wash the car???? Brush your teeth???? Wash your hands???? Cooking????
I keep track of the petroleum that I use - for my two cars, race car and lawn mower that is approximately 2000 gallons a year, heating oil for the oil burner is approximately 550 gallons a year. My water bill isn't broken down into gallons, but I fully expect I use 10 or more times the gallons of water than I use of petroleum - and this is just home residential use for a single person - add in industrial and agricultural use and I doubt you could run enough water trains to Southern California to affect their real water supply.
Lion, that NYC water tunnel photo shows railroad tracks in the tunnel. Clearly they're planning to move the water by rail :)
gardendance Lion, that NYC water tunnel photo shows railroad tracks in the tunnel. Clearly they're planning to move the water by rail :)
Looks to be narrow gauge - new use for the DRGW narrow gauge steamers?
Only a Chicagoan would know what's really going on. Calling it a water tunnel is just a cover for building a New York version of the Chicago freight tunnels (40 Feet Below).
Dr D The Great Lakes are the largest consentrated supply of fresh water in the world. Pristine and untouched except by native Americans until the discovery and settlement of the North American Continent by European people just some 300 years ago. The pure runnoff of the glaciers of millions of years ago. Cool fresh water - oceans of it to play in! The mighty ocean liners could bathe in its beauty! Since that time much of it has been severely ravaged by industrial waste and farm chemical "run off." I remember in the 1969 when the Cuyahoga river in Ohio caught of fire from the oil pollution. It was the 13th time in 75 years and was the cause of the US Congress creating the EPA - Enviornmental Protection Act. Lake Erie could not be navagated because of the 25 foot high soap foam run off from public sewers that caused ships to churn the phosphate rich soap water into mountains of un navagatable of soap foam. Unlike constant sewer effluent runnoff into the lakes of the past, presently the City of Detroit sewer system - like other American cities - when it cannot handle the public waste just dumps the overflow into the lakes. Just like they do and have done in Lake Erie or Lake Michigan or Lake Superior. Yes Virginia, the bottom of Lake Erie has heavy metal concentration from industrial waste settled into the mud so many foot deep, that will take centuries to clear it out. And I'm not counting similar industrial run off from Duluth, Minnesota - Gary, Indiana - Milwaukee, Wisconson and Chicago, Illinois. At Port Huron, Michigan and the Canadian chemical plants, the Mercury level in the water and river bottom makes the game fish inediable. Michigan Department of Natural Resources is constantly warning game fishermen not eat more than a certain amount - several fish per year. Unfortunately Lake St. Clair is one of the best producing game fishing areas in the world - Muskellunge, Pike, Walleye, Perch, Bass, Sturgon all are damaged by the heavy metal chemical content found in their body fats. And why is it I see so many poor people in Detroit feeding on the game fish from the Detroit River? Of course, lets not forget that most famous of all toxic waste sights! The one we all live in mortal dread of - "The Love Canal" of Niagara Falls, New York! Its on the Niagara River just before the falls! The former city dump site and for Niagara Power Company and Hooker Chemical which set the very standard for public negligence. Residents of Niagara Falls were found to have highly abnormal birth defects - enlarged feet, hands, legs and heads, and a high miscarriage rate with mental retardation of children. The ground would not grow grass, flowers or any living thing - right where people were living in homes - with 55 gallon drums of chemicals working up from the ground and where residential foundations grew with indescribable black mould. This ground, this river so polluted with so many chemicals - today 50 years later it is still considered a "public health time bomb." If that was not enough - "Love Canal Two!" - brought to you by the same industrial neglegence - today in Detroit - a similar clean up is going on! Thats right boys and girls another large toxic spill in St. Clair Shores, Michigan in the 1970's when that nasty old PCB transformer oil - nasty dangerous Detroit Edison carcinogenic transformer oil was disposed of over a period of years by dumping it into the 10 Mile Canal of Lake St. Clair. Yes, that's right "It's the New Love Canal! all over again!" - for you and I as residents living in this recreational boating wonderland - us - we - you and I? - encountering high rates of cancers and mortality again! - and the property in that area is un marketable! - especially not if they find out! And our local excitement for this year will be watching the Federal govenment spend billions digging up the public streets in a huge clean up - hauling that nasty old toxic lake bed away! Because we so much enjoy living and playing in a toxic dump site that was once the campground of native peoples and French fur trappers like Cadillac. Ah! yes! what was once the boating play place for "rum running millionares of the 1920's" - with all the natural ambiance of the Detroit River industrial centrer for oil refineries, chemical production and steel production for the past 100 years! O mon dois! Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo in Ohio, and Sarnia, Hamilton, and Toronto, Ontario all helping add their 10% - "Oh water wonderland of the world!" O Mon Dois! ------------------------------- Yah thats right! ship that water to Califorina - the Valley will surely love it for irrigation and drinking water. Up till now we have only had to deal with Mexican workers watering the vegetables with human waste! And, Oh yah! - by the way when California gets it's share - well then? - how you gonna say no to Texas, Arizona, Mexico, Utah, Africa, Arabia? - And when you drain down that once pristine watershed of the Great Lakes - well what then? Let em die of thirst in California! - Want the water? - or what's left of it, go live in New York - cause we don't care how they "do it" in California!. People in Michigan got something to say about this too! It's our polluted cesspool and we ain't givin it up! Cause that's what they make shotguns for! Doc
radio ranch Dr D The Great Lakes are the largest consentrated supply of fresh water in the world. Pristine and untouched except by native Americans until the discovery and settlement of the North American Continent by European people just some 300 years ago. The pure runnoff of the glaciers of millions of years ago. Cool fresh water - oceans of it to play in! The mighty ocean liners could bathe in its beauty! Since that time much of it has been severely ravaged by industrial waste and farm chemical "run off." I remember in the 1969 when the Cuyahoga river in Ohio caught of fire from the oil pollution. It was the 13th time in 75 years and was the cause of the US Congress creating the EPA - Enviornmental Protection Act. Lake Erie could not be navagated because of the 25 foot high soap foam run off from public sewers that caused ships to churn the phosphate rich soap water into mountains of un navagatable of soap foam. Unlike constant sewer effluent runnoff into the lakes of the past, presently the City of Detroit sewer system - like other American cities - when it cannot handle the public waste just dumps the overflow into the lakes. Just like they do and have done in Lake Erie or Lake Michigan or Lake Superior. Yes Virginia, the bottom of Lake Erie has heavy metal concentration from industrial waste settled into the mud so many foot deep, that will take centuries to clear it out. And I'm not counting similar industrial run off from Duluth, Minnesota - Gary, Indiana - Milwaukee, Wisconson and Chicago, Illinois. At Port Huron, Michigan and the Canadian chemical plants, the Mercury level in the water and river bottom makes the game fish inediable. Michigan Department of Natural Resources is constantly warning game fishermen not eat more than a certain amount - several fish per year. Unfortunately Lake St. Clair is one of the best producing game fishing areas in the world - Muskellunge, Pike, Walleye, Perch, Bass, Sturgon all are damaged by the heavy metal chemical content found in their body fats. And why is it I see so many poor people in Detroit feeding on the game fish from the Detroit River? Of course, lets not forget that most famous of all toxic waste sights! The one we all live in mortal dread of - "The Love Canal" of Niagara Falls, New York! Its on the Niagara River just before the falls! The former city dump site and for Niagara Power Company and Hooker Chemical which set the very standard for public negligence. Residents of Niagara Falls were found to have highly abnormal birth defects - enlarged feet, hands, legs and heads, and a high miscarriage rate with mental retardation of children. The ground would not grow grass, flowers or any living thing - right where people were living in homes - with 55 gallon drums of chemicals working up from the ground and where residential foundations grew with indescribable black mould. This ground, this river so polluted with so many chemicals - today 50 years later it is still considered a "public health time bomb." If that was not enough - "Love Canal Two!" - brought to you by the same industrial neglegence - today in Detroit - a similar clean up is going on! Thats right boys and girls another large toxic spill in St. Clair Shores, Michigan in the 1970's when that nasty old PCB transformer oil - nasty dangerous Detroit Edison carcinogenic transformer oil was disposed of over a period of years by dumping it into the 10 Mile Canal of Lake St. Clair. Yes, that's right "It's the New Love Canal! all over again!" - for you and I as residents living in this recreational boating wonderland - us - we - you and I? - encountering high rates of cancers and mortality again! - and the property in that area is un marketable! - especially not if they find out! And our local excitement for this year will be watching the Federal govenment spend billions digging up the public streets in a huge clean up - hauling that nasty old toxic lake bed away! Because we so much enjoy living and playing in a toxic dump site that was once the campground of native peoples and French fur trappers like Cadillac. Ah! yes! what was once the boating play place for "rum running millionares of the 1920's" - with all the natural ambiance of the Detroit River industrial centrer for oil refineries, chemical production and steel production for the past 100 years! O mon dois! Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo in Ohio, and Sarnia, Hamilton, and Toronto, Ontario all helping add their 10% - "Oh water wonderland of the world!" O Mon Dois! ------------------------------- Yah thats right! ship that water to Califorina - the Valley will surely love it for irrigation and drinking water. Up till now we have only had to deal with Mexican workers watering the vegetables with human waste! And, Oh yah! - by the way when California gets it's share - well then? - how you gonna say no to Texas, Arizona, Mexico, Utah, Africa, Arabia? - And when you drain down that once pristine watershed of the Great Lakes - well what then? Let em die of thirst in California! - Want the water? - or what's left of it, go live in New York - cause we don't care how they "do it" in California!. People in Michigan got something to say about this too! It's our polluted cesspool and we ain't givin it up! Cause that's what they make shotguns for! Doc You must be a million laughs at parties!
You must be a million laughs at parties!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm radio ranch Dr D The Great Lakes are the largest consentrated supply of fresh water in the world. Pristine and untouched except by native Americans until the discovery and settlement of the North American Continent by European people just some 300 years ago. The pure runnoff of the glaciers of millions of years ago. Cool fresh water - oceans of it to play in! The mighty ocean liners could bathe in its beauty! Since that time much of it has been severely ravaged by industrial waste and farm chemical "run off." I remember in the 1969 when the Cuyahoga river in Ohio caught of fire from the oil pollution. It was the 13th time in 75 years and was the cause of the US Congress creating the EPA - Enviornmental Protection Act. Lake Erie could not be navagated because of the 25 foot high soap foam run off from public sewers that caused ships to churn the phosphate rich soap water into mountains of un navagatable of soap foam. Unlike constant sewer effluent runnoff into the lakes of the past, presently the City of Detroit sewer system - like other American cities - when it cannot handle the public waste just dumps the overflow into the lakes. Just like they do and have done in Lake Erie or Lake Michigan or Lake Superior. Yes Virginia, the bottom of Lake Erie has heavy metal concentration from industrial waste settled into the mud so many foot deep, that will take centuries to clear it out. And I'm not counting similar industrial run off from Duluth, Minnesota - Gary, Indiana - Milwaukee, Wisconson and Chicago, Illinois. At Port Huron, Michigan and the Canadian chemical plants, the Mercury level in the water and river bottom makes the game fish inediable. Michigan Department of Natural Resources is constantly warning game fishermen not eat more than a certain amount - several fish per year. Unfortunately Lake St. Clair is one of the best producing game fishing areas in the world - Muskellunge, Pike, Walleye, Perch, Bass, Sturgon all are damaged by the heavy metal chemical content found in their body fats. And why is it I see so many poor people in Detroit feeding on the game fish from the Detroit River? Of course, lets not forget that most famous of all toxic waste sights! The one we all live in mortal dread of - "The Love Canal" of Niagara Falls, New York! Its on the Niagara River just before the falls! The former city dump site and for Niagara Power Company and Hooker Chemical which set the very standard for public negligence. Residents of Niagara Falls were found to have highly abnormal birth defects - enlarged feet, hands, legs and heads, and a high miscarriage rate with mental retardation of children. The ground would not grow grass, flowers or any living thing - right where people were living in homes - with 55 gallon drums of chemicals working up from the ground and where residential foundations grew with indescribable black mould. This ground, this river so polluted with so many chemicals - today 50 years later it is still considered a "public health time bomb." If that was not enough - "Love Canal Two!" - brought to you by the same industrial neglegence - today in Detroit - a similar clean up is going on! Thats right boys and girls another large toxic spill in St. Clair Shores, Michigan in the 1970's when that nasty old PCB transformer oil - nasty dangerous Detroit Edison carcinogenic transformer oil was disposed of over a period of years by dumping it into the 10 Mile Canal of Lake St. Clair. Yes, that's right "It's the New Love Canal! all over again!" - for you and I as residents living in this recreational boating wonderland - us - we - you and I? - encountering high rates of cancers and mortality again! - and the property in that area is un marketable! - especially not if they find out! And our local excitement for this year will be watching the Federal govenment spend billions digging up the public streets in a huge clean up - hauling that nasty old toxic lake bed away! Because we so much enjoy living and playing in a toxic dump site that was once the campground of native peoples and French fur trappers like Cadillac. Ah! yes! what was once the boating play place for "rum running millionares of the 1920's" - with all the natural ambiance of the Detroit River industrial centrer for oil refineries, chemical production and steel production for the past 100 years! O mon dois! Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo in Ohio, and Sarnia, Hamilton, and Toronto, Ontario all helping add their 10% - "Oh water wonderland of the world!" O Mon Dois! ------------------------------- Yah thats right! ship that water to Califorina - the Valley will surely love it for irrigation and drinking water. Up till now we have only had to deal with Mexican workers watering the vegetables with human waste! And, Oh yah! - by the way when California gets it's share - well then? - how you gonna say no to Texas, Arizona, Mexico, Utah, Africa, Arabia? - And when you drain down that once pristine watershed of the Great Lakes - well what then? Let em die of thirst in California! - Want the water? - or what's left of it, go live in New York - cause we don't care how they "do it" in California!. People in Michigan got something to say about this too! It's our polluted cesspool and we ain't givin it up! Cause that's what they make shotguns for! Doc You must be a million laughs at parties! Perhaps he is related to the late Dr. Josef Mengele, the notorious "Angel of Death" of Auschwitz infamy? He also knows nothing about the current condition of the Great Lakes. For example, most of metro Chicago drinks treated Lake Michigan water and has for years.
And when did this Lake Erie unnavigable event happen. How did all that iron ore get to those unloading docks along the southern shore? OMG! who isn't this guy and what's he on?
I'm going to get dangerous and think.
Wouldn't it make more sense, before working out the logistics of getting water to California, to find out WHO is willing to sell them some?
Pass the popcorn.
And who is willing to buy California water?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/11/us-forest-service-investigating-expired-nestle-wat/
An investigation by the Desert Sun found that Nestle Waters North America’s permit to transport water across the San Bernardino National Forest expired in 1988. The water is piped across the national forest and loaded on trucks to a plant where it is bottled as Arrowhead 100 percent Mountain Spring Water.
Maybe we can get a backhaul operation like I've mentioned for the oil trains: water trains to take Mississippi river water to California, then take California water back to the Mississippi valley.
Previous and current efforts to obtain water for CA from the Columbia River have been hindered by political obstacles, but this source is currently the most viable for large volume according to those who have been working on this. Meanwhile, we have heard from at least one source elsewhere in the U.S., within reasonable proximity of CA, who has their own water source, their own rail loading facility, and customers from CA who are already knocking at their door. Stay tuned...
Schlimm,
I can't believe you are a retired psychologist, as you sure resort to "character assassination" much too easily for that professional calling! I can't imagine you as a professional counselor - how did your short temper effect your clients! I call malpractice! Mostly you seem to write criticism of others on this site and offer little of your education and understanding of the human personality - short of irritation with it.
I wrote my post, which you quote, on March 19th and it has taken you a month to pull up your Dr. Josef Mengele insult - give me a break! Maybe you would want to accuse me of "mother rapin and father beatin" also!
Minus my editorial twist, the incidents I desribed are factual and lead to the establishment of the Enviornmental Protection Agency of our national government. The real issue is that the Great Lakes have been serously enviornmentally abused, and once a world treasure like the Great Lakes becomes saleable there is no satifying the need for it - around the world. It is already common practice for foreign tanker ships to come into the lakes and fill their holds taking the water cargo with them while polluting the lakes with foreign species of fish and water creatures. Nestle Corp. bottler of purified water has located in Michigan and has droped the water table in the state selling its product nationally - the State of Michigan has reacted to this legally.
The New York Times has also reported several public interest organizsations have also raised concerns about the health and safety of such bottled water, both in comparison to municipal tap water and in contrast to the industry's marketing image of pure water products. While the public often perceives such water as being of higher quality than tap water, at least one prominent enviornmental organizsation has directly attacked this perception. In 1999 the National Resources Defence Council ("NRDC") issued a report entitled "Bottled Water: Pure Drink or Pure Hype." In the report NRDC warned the public that "no one should assume that just because he or she purchases such water in a bottle that it is necessarily any better regulated, purer, or safer than other common tap water. NRDC performed "snapshot" testing of more than 1000 bottles of 103 brands of water by three independent labs and found that most water tested was of good quality, but of some brands this was not so. It is not surprising that Michigan and other states have established serious controls over the use of water within the state boundaries as a saleable commodity. Some of the risks of Great Lakes water are serious.
Next time you run out of logical arguments you might try the old psychological ploy of "kicking the dog" it's probably handier that I am - you are hopeless in your ability to be a creative writer? Calling me a Nazi! I protest!
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