dehusmanThey just have pet projects and that is the solution to everything. Lion models subways so the answer is obviously subway train couplers.
I have pet cats, I have pet LIONS and TIGERS, and I even have pet projects. OK, we all figured that one out. There are also many different kinds of transit couplers, some of them will obviously not work out on the freight railroad.
Of the FRA approved couplers in use on the Long Island Rail Road and on the Metro North Railroad, these I have been told by the engineers who run them, are 100% compatible with any railroad application.
They are not compatible with bean counters who envision rebuilding the whole railroad. But on purpose built unit trains, there is no reason why not. At least put them on 100 cars and try them out. Hey they wreck all kinds of cars and locomotives out on the test track proving their technology, slapping these on some old takn cars, filling them with water and testing them is not a big deal. It *could* be done as soon as someone provides a train set of couplers.
Add some off the shelf track brakes, and or electrical braking and my plan *could* be tested before June is over. All of what I have suggested is off the shelf stuff, much of it already FRA approved.
LION and Friend.... ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Then you have never started a loaded oil train or a loaded grain train...without a DPU, if the engineer who brought the train in fails to bunch the slack in before he stops, the next engineer will be cussing and discussing his bad train handleing for a while.
Lion is right, with no slack couplers, the train acts like a pipe, or more like a spear.
Imagine a derailment ten cars deep from the head end on a 100 car loaded oil train with no slack couplers...instead to the cars folding up like an accordian, the last 89 cars will act like a spear, epc brakes and all, and try and shove the 90th car through the next derailed ten, and with that much weight and inerita tank cars can telescope quite nicely.
If the choice was the accordian pattern, or telescoping loaded tank cars...well, I like Zidaco music better.
23 17 46 11
oltmannd Most slack run-in caused derailments have to do with undesirable train make-up, an undesired emergency brake application and location on curve or X-over. Long cars next to short cars, empties ahead of loads, that sort of thing. I don't think I've ever heard of a loaded unit train derailment due to slack action.
Exactly my point. Neither Euclid nor Lion have any practical knowledge of derailments or track/train dynamics They just have pet projects and that is the solution to everything. Lion models subways so the answer is obviously subway train couplers.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Euclid dehusman What benefit to an oil train is no slack action? It reduces derailments caused by hard slack run-in; and those caused by hard run-out pulling the train in two.
dehusman What benefit to an oil train is no slack action?
It reduces derailments caused by hard slack run-in; and those caused by hard run-out pulling the train in two.
Most slack run-in caused derailments have to do with undesirable train make-up, an undesired emergency brake application and location on curve or X-over. Long cars next to short cars, empties ahead of loads, that sort of thing. I don't think I've ever heard of a loaded unit train derailment due to slack action.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
dehusmanAnd which oil train derailment was caused by hard slack run in? If there were no derailments caused by hard slack run in, then it doesn't reduce anything.
The slack or no-slack will not change the possibility of a derailment. But in the event of a derailment, couplers that will not let go will reduce the accordion effects of the event, and could prevent punctures of the equipment.
What a transit type coupler does buy you is an electrical train line of controls. Brakes applied by electrical command apply to the whole train at once, helping to prevent a run-in accordion event. The train is handled like a pipe instead of a rope.
Combine this with guard rails and timbers through towns and cities will help to keep an event to the right of way. Perhaps steel and concrete walls will help retain equipment and will certainly help in noise abatement.
The BIGGEST advantage to such VISIBLE IMPROVEMENTS is to keep the public and the lackey lllllest media off of your caboose. Visible efforts even of little value do have great value when looked at differentlly.
If the railroad wants to double track its line through your town, there will be objections to it, even though they own the property and have the right to do as they please along the ROW without being impinged upon by public reaction.
Adding the guard rails and timbers, and installing sound walls go a long way to mittigate the public and their press. It is worth the effort just in public relations. Especially since traffic frequency and possibly train speeds will be going up.
The railroad does not *have* to improve the grade crossings, but doing so will allow them to operate at higher speeds, and will allow the railroad to proactively institue quiet zones to head off complaints before they occur. This is important to the peaceful operation of the railroad.
Is the LION all wet? Maybe so, but at least the LION thinks outside of the box. There is no progress for you inside of the box. Contrtolling the Public and the Press is just as important as controlling the train.
ROAR
Euclid It reduces derailments caused by hard slack run-in; and those caused by hard run-out pulling the train in two.
And which oil train derailment was caused by hard slack run in?
If there were no derailments caused by hard slack run in, then it doesn't reduce anything.
It was common practice in the days of friction/solid bearing to bunch the slack up on a train, then pull it out to get rolling. Starting a whole train of cars that are sitting metal-on-metal (ie, no lubricating layer between the bearing and the axle) would be near impossible, like MC says.
Bunching the slack, then pulling it out, means that for the length of the slack between any two cars, you're only initially moving one car, even if only for a few inches/feet. Those already in motion are already in motion.
I encountered this when a train stalled in the ol' hometown years ago. It was empty hoppers, and it took a couple of tries to get the train moving again. Each time the slack was bunched or stretched, there was a loud bangbangbangbangbang as each drawbar/coupler reached the limit of it's slack or bunch.
While roller bearings are the law of the land these days, the concept of starting one car at a time still has relevance.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
None...
You would have to stop it on a downhill incline, and start it from the same incline.
No slack in a train that heavy would make it very difficult to start from level...you would have to over power it on the headend and have at least one DPU pushing just to get moving.
Not to mention the shear factor and pulled drawbars.
dehusmanWhat benefit to an oil train is no slack action?
Rather than "NO" slack action in a transit coupler I think it more correct to say "MINIMAL". What is effectively zero in a 6 or 8 car transit train, with power distributed throughout, will become measurable as you get further back in a long oil train. I also suspect the typical transit coupler will have difficulty coping with the drawbar stress of 10-12,000 tons. Ergo, instant uncoupling and done multiple times as per BaltACD.
John
BroadwayLion BaltACD I suspect it would be done multiple times in the field with the slack action of a 100 car, 14300 ton oil train operating in undulating terrain. There is no slack action in a transit coupler. It is the same as a draw bar until you unlock it. ROAR
BaltACD
I suspect it would be done multiple times in the field with the slack action of a 100 car, 14300 ton oil train operating in undulating terrain.
There is no slack action in a transit coupler. It is the same as a draw bar until you unlock it.
At transit loadings - several hundred tons at most.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDI suspect it would be done multiple times in the field with the slack action of a 100 car, 14300 ton oil train operating in undulating terrain.
BroadwayLion carnej1 Do the transit style couplers offer any significant advantages over using semi-permanently drawbar connected blocks of tank cars? You do not need to go into the shop to uncouple cars. It can be done in the field. ROAR
carnej1 Do the transit style couplers offer any significant advantages over using semi-permanently drawbar connected blocks of tank cars?
You do not need to go into the shop to uncouple cars. It can be done in the field.
You do not need to go into the shop to uncouple cars. It can be done in the field by the train crew without any tools.
carnej1 I wonder how transit couplers would deal with the significantly greater slack forces of a long heavy tank train compared to an M.U transit consist?
There is no slack action in transit type couplers.
zugmann I will give credit to the Lion. That would solve all problems associated with the oil trains. -- Mainly by making it so expensive that no more oil could ever be moved by rail.
I will give credit to the Lion. That would solve all problems associated with the oil trains.
--
Mainly by making it so expensive that no more oil could ever be moved by rail.
As well as creating ghettos all across the country.
BroadwayLion dehusman More shooting at targets in the dark. Solutions that are ineffectual, counterproductive or pointed at problems that don't exist. You really must be gentle on your LION, him is not a rail expert of any sort, but ewe knew that. We have to shoot in the dark, because there is no light on the subject. Like designing an airplane. You re-enforce this place, and the weak spot moves over there. LION *likes* the idea of transit couplers. The newer ones are fully FRA approved, or so I am told by a locomitive engineer, and are fully up to the task. LION would make sticks of 50 oil cars with one "buffer car" at the end to serve as a transition between conventional couplers and the transit type couplers. The reason why the LION likes his transit couplers is among other reasons is to put all kinds of sensors on the oil cars: weight, lading, pressure, presence of gas, the ballance on the trucks and the condition of the wheels and brakes. Perhaps more information, LION is not a petrolium engineer either. THIS IS DATA from which new generations of equipment can be made. The LION would run two such "sitcks" of cars back to back so that there is a transition-buffer car at each end. What the heck, the car manufacturer or the oil shipper can have a technician on the buffer car keeping an eye on everything. The buffer car would have track inspection gear on it, like continiously inspecting the track. If there is a developing condition on the rails the train can be slowed down. LION also borrowed the idea of track brakes, electric or otherwise, to be used in emergency and in parking conditions, but not in normal braking conditions. Such a contrivance could apply emergency brakes evenly across the entire train. It would also help to apply service brakes evenly across the entire train. This will take the buff action out of the train and would minimise the effects of a derailment, least wise the LION thinks that this is possible, and is certainly better than not having this kind of control over your train. The Idea of guard rails and timbers through town are mostly a vissible upgrade that the people in town can see, and be comforted by the fact that the railroad is working to mittigate these issues as the train passes through town. (Did I word that abmigously enough?) Will it help, obviously it will help, otherwise the railroads would not bother with these appliances on bridges and other sensitive locations. Will it stop a disaster? No. If you fix one thing a new issue will rear its head. But public relations with the towns that you pass through *are* important, especially if you wish to increase train speeds. "Yes, the trains are moving faster but we have done.... And so the railroad will now be even safer." PUBLIC RELATIONS is HALF of the job, especially with LLLLLTIST media out for your anatomical parts. So in addition to guard rails/timbers, I would add a 4' high reinforced wall between the track and the town. Will it help. Yes, every little bit helps, but it will also reduce noise which is coming with the increased frequency of trains on the railroad. Public Relations commbined with some functionality. Make these new high capacity oil lines QUIET ZONES at railroad expense. JUST DO IT. Better crossing gates, better lighting, better signaling of street traffic. Build good medians where the locality will allow or cooperate with the effort. You want to have the railroad have less impact on the townspeople even while you increase frequency and speeds and are double tracking your layout. And if the railroad is putting in new gates, make them something that cannot be run or ignored. In Hong Kong (back in the 60s) the ROW was fenced in and chain link fence closed the ROW while traffic moved. When a train came, the gates swung across the road blocking it entirely, and giving the train the ROW. Do I wnat that, actually no, I think it is stoopit, but something should be done, and in some places it may be necessary for the railroad to bite yet another bulled and elevate the roadway across its tracks. FAILING THAT, some roads will just be closed with New Jersey Barricades on both sides and end of problem. Managing Public Relations is every bit important to the railroad as managing the oil and other traffic. ROAR
dehusman More shooting at targets in the dark. Solutions that are ineffectual, counterproductive or pointed at problems that don't exist.
You really must be gentle on your LION, him is not a rail expert of any sort, but ewe knew that.
We have to shoot in the dark, because there is no light on the subject. Like designing an airplane. You re-enforce this place, and the weak spot moves over there.
LION *likes* the idea of transit couplers. The newer ones are fully FRA approved, or so I am told by a locomitive engineer, and are fully up to the task. LION would make sticks of 50 oil cars with one "buffer car" at the end to serve as a transition between conventional couplers and the transit type couplers.
The reason why the LION likes his transit couplers is among other reasons is to put all kinds of sensors on the oil cars: weight, lading, pressure, presence of gas, the ballance on the trucks and the condition of the wheels and brakes. Perhaps more information, LION is not a petrolium engineer either. THIS IS DATA from which new generations of equipment can be made.
The LION would run two such "sitcks" of cars back to back so that there is a transition-buffer car at each end. What the heck, the car manufacturer or the oil shipper can have a technician on the buffer car keeping an eye on everything.
The buffer car would have track inspection gear on it, like continiously inspecting the track. If there is a developing condition on the rails the train can be slowed down.
LION also borrowed the idea of track brakes, electric or otherwise, to be used in emergency and in parking conditions, but not in normal braking conditions. Such a contrivance could apply emergency brakes evenly across the entire train. It would also help to apply service brakes evenly across the entire train. This will take the buff action out of the train and would minimise the effects of a derailment, least wise the LION thinks that this is possible, and is certainly better than not having this kind of control over your train.
The Idea of guard rails and timbers through town are mostly a vissible upgrade that the people in town can see, and be comforted by the fact that the railroad is working to mittigate these issues as the train passes through town. (Did I word that abmigously enough?) Will it help, obviously it will help, otherwise the railroads would not bother with these appliances on bridges and other sensitive locations. Will it stop a disaster? No. If you fix one thing a new issue will rear its head. But public relations with the towns that you pass through *are* important, especially if you wish to increase train speeds. "Yes, the trains are moving faster but we have done.... And so the railroad will now be even safer." PUBLIC RELATIONS is HALF of the job, especially with LLLLLTIST media out for your anatomical parts.
So in addition to guard rails/timbers, I would add a 4' high reinforced wall between the track and the town. Will it help. Yes, every little bit helps, but it will also reduce noise which is coming with the increased frequency of trains on the railroad. Public Relations commbined with some functionality.
Make these new high capacity oil lines QUIET ZONES at railroad expense. JUST DO IT. Better crossing gates, better lighting, better signaling of street traffic. Build good medians where the locality will allow or cooperate with the effort. You want to have the railroad have less impact on the townspeople even while you increase frequency and speeds and are double tracking your layout. And if the railroad is putting in new gates, make them something that cannot be run or ignored. In Hong Kong (back in the 60s) the ROW was fenced in and chain link fence closed the ROW while traffic moved. When a train came, the gates swung across the road blocking it entirely, and giving the train the ROW. Do I wnat that, actually no, I think it is stoopit, but something should be done, and in some places it may be necessary for the railroad to bite yet another bulled and elevate the roadway across its tracks. FAILING THAT, some roads will just be closed with New Jersey Barricades on both sides and end of problem.
Managing Public Relations is every bit important to the railroad as managing the oil and other traffic.
Brother Lion,
Do the transit style couplers offer any significant advantages over using semi-permanently drawbar connected blocks of tank cars?
I wonder how transit couplers would deal with the significantly greater slack forces of a long heavy tank train compared to an M.U transit consist?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
dehusmanMore shooting at targets in the dark. Solutions that are ineffectual, counterproductive or pointed at problems that don't exist.
Euclid Or you could leave the wall relatively thin, and add internal rings. But the rings would have to be substantial, and they will add considerable weight. Rings also require a lot of extra welding and make the car harder to clean.
Or you could leave the wall relatively thin, and add internal rings. But the rings would have to be substantial, and they will add considerable weight.
Rings also require a lot of extra welding and make the car harder to clean.
I bet they'd add less weight than thickening the entire wall.
How often do they clean tank cars now? Do oil tank cars sometimes carry different types of cargo? I would expect that they're dedicated to oil, so why would they need to clean them?
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
BroadwayLion LION made a reply on this thread: Progressive Railroading Daily News. ROAR
LION made a reply on this thread:
Progressive Railroading Daily News.
BroadwayLion LION made a reply on this thread: Progressive Railroading Daily News.
More shooting at targets in the dark. Solutions that are ineffectual, counterproductive or pointed at problems that don't exist.
A little more 'economic throughts' on the BNSF $1,000 per car surcharge:
- Paul North.
Euclid Zugmann, What you refer to as a "smoke screen" is what I am calling a "pretext." Whether it is a smoke screen or a genuine concern for public safety makes no difference to the objective. It might not be an outright ban. I tend to think it will be more complicated than that; more along the lines of making it uneconomical as you mention. But if there is a oil train fire with many deaths, I would expect an executive order to halt until a solution can be found.
Zugmann,
What you refer to as a "smoke screen" is what I am calling a "pretext." Whether it is a smoke screen or a genuine concern for public safety makes no difference to the objective.
It might not be an outright ban. I tend to think it will be more complicated than that; more along the lines of making it uneconomical as you mention. But if there is a oil train fire with many deaths, I would expect an executive order to halt until a solution can be found.
As I mentioned in another recent thread, the Bakken represents about 10% of domestic crude production. There is no legal pretext or precident to shut that down. An economic hurdle, such as tank car fleet rebuild would take years to implement. The Lac Megantic disaster only resulted in rerouting the CBR around that vicinity, more stringent enforcement of existing rules (including North Dakota codifying Bakken volatile seperation parameters), and regulatory review of ways to upgrade tank cars.
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