In trouble because he waved.

[coborn35]

Nevermind.... not worth it.

[schlimm]

It all seems like manufactured "buzz."

[Ulrich]

In any event this post makes me realize how lucky I am to be living here... where life is so good that frustration over a lousy train shot is worthy of a lengthy analysis. I much prefer that problem over what I'm seeing on the news these days. 

[Euclid]

Something is fishy here.  I have to wonder if this letter really caused all the trouble that is suggested.  In reading the mass of Facebook postings, it seems that most comments come from railfans, and a small percentage come from railfans who are railroaders.  Many of the latter say they work for railroads other than CN.  Nearly all of the comments say that it was very bad for Steve to have written the letter because it nearly got the conductor fired.  Really?  Do we really know that? 

We have not seen what the letter said, nor have we learned CN’s response to Steve.  And we have no idea what CN said to the conductor.  We supposedly have seen the incriminating the photo, but it is the most innocent looking photo imaginable.  It indicates nothing in the way of hostility, or even mischief.  What is also conspicuously lacking from this argument is the reaction from the mass of CN employees who are said to be so offended that they display the letter in their locker rooms as a monument to their bitterness over the incident.  

Is this whole fiasco just a big by huff by railfans who are impulsively protecting the CN from some hurt that they believe happened because Steve G. says it did?  It sure sounds that way. 

[gardendance]

coborn35

I was given a front row seat when this letter was written in 2010. I had a few very good friends who worked for the CN when this happened. Please stop saying "he got in trouble because he waved". You sound so stupid. That could not be further from the truth. The conductor repeatedly opened the door at crossings, engineer turned the lights off at crossings, middle fingers and other etc. The letter was sent to the Superintendent, who in turn attempted to discipline the employees. If anyone is familar with their investigation system, I need say no more. This letter (attempt to get guys fired to the guys up here) was posted behind a locked glass case in the Proctor, MN yard office (AND REMAINS THERE TO THIS VERY DAY!!!) and inspired an entire generation of railroaders that hate railfans. Thats not even close to an exageration. Crews now commonly fly toilet paper out the windows, shut lights off and flip railfans off, mostly because of this letter. It created an us vs them mentality. Those are the facts. Why TRAINS decided to stir the pot 5 years later and make things even worse for those who railfan up here is beyond me but I can attest that all the guys up here are aware this was posted again and are just as mad as they were before. Good job ESPN, er, I mean TRAINS.

 

I'm not sure why you feel you need to tell me to ignore what you said. I hold your prior statement in as high a regard as I do any other unsubstantiated internet comment.

Yes you said back on page 2 that from your front row seat, while the photographer wrote the letter, that you could see that the conductor did many awful things. So why didn't you ask the photographer to send something more damning than the photo that we see on some facebook resident's page, who purports to be the fingery conductor?

And the photo at https://www.facebook.com/brian.beschta?fref=ufi looks to me to be nothing more than somebody giving a friendly wave.

Did you notice my prior posts where I said "If" and asked how we know what the conductor's intent was? I'm looking for evidence, your and anybody else's statements are testimony, which can get entered into evidence, but I don't believe anybody should accept testimony as true without more to back it up.

Why didn't the photographer send a photo of one of the times the conductor had his middle finger out? He should have had much opportunity to get those shots. If the beschta's facebook photo is the one this professional photographer decided to send, why is it so grainy, far more than I'd expect a photocopy of a photocopy to be.

 

And something I haven't noticed discussed: how is it that a main line freight train goes back and forth past the same spot, with the same locomotives and crew, frequently enough that anybody waiting at trackside gets several chances in one session to have their photos ruined?

[coborn35]

gardendance

If that's typical of the offending photos which ruined the photographer's repeated tries to get his shots, then I'm going to lump him with the above mentioned rivet counters who want no human presence to show in any of their train photos.

 

 

I guess you could ignore everything I said, thats fine. 

[gardendance]

Well let's not say "positively and unequivocably identified", after all we have only a facebook userid that purports to be the questionable conductor. :)

When I have absolutely nothing better to do I'll reread the blog. I thought it had the text, or at least a summary, of the letter.

[Wizlish]

BaltACD

 

 

gardendance

Zugmann, since you know where the link is, or whose profile photo it is, could you please give it to us? I scrolled through all 176 posts in that facebook page, and nothing jumped out at me that said "here's the picture of the conductor giving the photographer the finger".

https://www.facebook.com/brian.beschta?fref=ufi

 

Now that the conductor in question has been positively and unequivocably identified:

There has been considerable discussion in at least three separate places (the blog, the Facebook page, and here) regarding the text of "The Letter".  In all three places there have been requests to see the actual text of the letter as sent.  Why has someone not provided this, especially since there are said to be so many copies on so many lockers?

Aside from that, I'm solidly with schlimm about the 'equum mortuum verberans' aspect of this ... in all three places.

[gardendance]

If that's typical of the offending photos which ruined the photographer's repeated tries to get his shots, then I'm going to lump him with the above mentioned rivet counters who want no human presence to show in any of their train photos.

[BaltACD]

gardendance

Zuggman, since you know where the link is, or whose profile photo it is, could you please give it to us? I scrolled through all 176 posts in that facebook page, and nothing jumped out at me that said "here's the picture of the conductor giving the photographer the finger".

 

https://www.facebook.com/brian.beschta?fref=ufi

No fingers appear to be in play.

[gardendance]

Zuggman, since you know where the link is, or whose profile photo it is, could you please give it to us? I scrolled through all 176 posts in that facebook page, and nothing jumped out at me that said "here's the picture of the conductor giving the photographer the finger".

[zugmann]

That isn't the photo of concern. Dig deeper into the comments and you should find it.  it's the profile photo of one of the respondents. 

[cx500]

Quite correct, that picture has nothing to do with the discussion apart from showing the same railroad.  The picture was taken a thousand miles away near Jasper, Alberta, probably by the camera of the more mature and very professional Jeff Robertson.

[Wizlish]

Murphy Siding

I meant link to the the Facebook page with the photo.

https://www.facebook.com/TrainsMagazine/photos/a.488987150049.302711.386595470049/10153033722415050/?type=1&theater

(Note that the picture that accompanies the 'commentary' appears to be a stock picture of a CN locomotive and not the photo 'evidence' concerned in the discussion.)

When I loaded this page, it displayed some of the comments without requiring a Facebook sign-in or registration. 

[Murphy Siding]

tree68

 

 

Murphy Siding

I must be blind.  Can you give me some direction to find this?

 

 

The URL is in the very first post of the thread.

 

  I meant link to the the Facebook page with the photo.

[tree68]

Murphy Siding

I must be blind.  Can you give me some direction to find this?

The URL is in the very first post of the thread.

[Murphy Siding]

zugmann

If you think this is bad, you should read some of the responses to this topc in the Trains.com facebook page (also the conductor involved is posting to that (or so he says) and even included the supposed photo in question.  

 I must be blind.  Can you give me some direction to find this?

[Euclid]

Euclid

I doubt that a company would have to put up with employees insulting the public under the premise that the employees have the right to free speech. 

 

I might not have made that clear.  I did not mean to suggest that free speech would protect the employee.  I meant that I do not think that free speech would protect the employee.  In other words, I assume that an employee could be fired for playing games with the ditch lights or giving the finger to members of the public.  They could probably also be fired for trailing toilet paper out the window. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Free speech may protect the employee from government action only; not much protection against private (i.e., company) action.  Pay attention to that difference - government vs. private - it's critical on many other issues as well.

- Paul North.    

[Euclid]

I doubt that a company would have to put up with employees insulting the public under the premise that the employees have the right to free speech. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Ulrich

Flipping the bird? Yes, should be fired. Lights on/off?... firing would be too severe and probably illegal.

As zugmann said, it's the other way around, as far as I know.  Company rules may justify firing for the bird, but the FRA would have a hard time - First Amendment doctrine might well treat that as "protected speech".  Other violation(s), however, may get to the same result.  

- Paul North. 

[zugmann]

Ulrich

 Lights on/off?... firing would be too severe and probably illegal.  

 

In the US, that's all federal law.  Probably decertifiable if caught - although I'm not 100% certain on it.  But I sure as heck wouldn't take that chance.  Not to mention the lawsuits/criminal charges if you hit someone at a crossing with your lights off. 

 Flipping the bird is more a company "conduct unbecoming" type charge.  Still stupid to do either one.  People need to grow up. There's always going to be whiney railfans trying to cause trouble.  Comes with the territory.

[Ulrich]

Flipping the bird? Yes, should be fired. Lights on/off?... firing would be too severe and probably illegal.  

[zugmann]

coborn35

Please stop saying "he got in trouble because he waved". You sound so stupid

I came up with the title as a way to grab attention to the thread, and to play off of the non-waving controversies of the past on here.   I know we are only hearing one side of the story, and the truth is never what is reported.

 

If you think this is bad, you should read some of the responses to this topc in the Trains.com facebook page (also the conductor involved is posting to that (or so he says) and even included the supposed photo in question.  

 

But as an aside, some of those respondents better hope the company doesn't see the stuff (threats) they are writing if they are a RR employee.  Some of that crap could get them fired.

Bottom line - big brother (or uncle railfan) is always watching.  Be governed accordingly. And any railroader that flips people off or turns off lights at a grade xing should be fired.  Sorry, but there is NO excuse to act like that.

[coborn35]

I was given a front row seat when this letter was written in 2010. I had a few very good friends who worked for the CN when this happened. Please stop saying "he got in trouble because he waved". You sound so stupid. That could not be further from the truth. The conductor repeatedly opened the door at crossings, engineer turned the lights off at crossings, middle fingers and other etc. The letter was sent to the Superintendent, who in turn attempted to discipline the employees. If anyone is familar with their investigation system, I need say no more. This letter (attempt to get guys fired to the guys up here) was posted behind a locked glass case in the Proctor, MN yard office (AND REMAINS THERE TO THIS VERY DAY!!!) and inspired an entire generation of railroaders that hate railfans. Thats not even close to an exageration. Crews now commonly fly toilet paper out the windows, shut lights off and flip railfans off, mostly because of this letter. It created an us vs them mentality. Those are the facts. Why TRAINS decided to stir the pot 5 years later and make things even worse for those who railfan up here is beyond me but I can attest that all the guys up here are aware this was posted again and are just as mad as they were before. Good job ESPN, er, I mean TRAINS.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Just a passing comment, if anyone cares: Tyler, in his post above, accurately and succinctly summarized what he calls the the model release, Right of Publicity, and Right of Privacy, as a general statement of the law on those subjects in most jurisdictions.    

- Paul North. 

[Euclid]

Jeff,

Those rules are quite interesting in the context of this letter to the CN fiasco.  I guess I was aware of rules to that effect, but I have never seen them laid out that explicitly. I can see how things like “indifference to the performance of duty” could be in the eyes of the beholder.  It seems like both a hard charge to prove and a hard charge to defend against, and yet they say it will not be tolerated. 

Rule 1.9 says "Employees must behave in such a way that the railroad will not be criticized for their actions."  

A heated letter to CN in this case would certainly be interpreted by the railroad as “criticism.”  So I guess they would be obligated to go forward with a hearing to find out what happened.  That is, if it was a heated letter.      

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Euclid

Steve said: “I checked with a couple of my friends at CN who were privy to what happened, and apparently it was not pretty. The crew indeed got called on the carpet, and when the incident came up they immediately attempted to blame us!” . . . [snipped - PDN]

Reminds me of a certain story in "A Treasury of Railroad Folklore" (edited by Botkin & Harlow) about a dispatcher who was less than completely courteous to a conductor ("Pop" something).  One night Pop called and whined to the DS about the problems he was having with a carload of mules.  The DS finally told Pop: "Bring those mules in, even if it takes all day and all night - we want to make conductors out of them !"  Pop complained and the DS was called on the carpet by the Superintendent the next day and made to apologize to Pop.  After Pop left, the two division officials bent over the desk, convulsed with laughter. 

I can well imagine the same reaction by the CN super and the crew to Glischinski's self-righteous gripe.

- Paul North.    

[schlimm]

I thought Steve was likely a juvenile, acting in an entitled manner.  Turns out he is an older guy and acts in both a juvenile and entitled manner.

http://cs.trains.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-components-avatars/00-00-35-34-17/4TTTNMFRUUDL.jpg