tomikawaTT carnej1 tomikawaTT For that matter, there's no reason that a rail -RORO ship can't be engined for 24 knot speed. The total diesel consumption for the NY - BA run would almost certainly be less than that of a train hauled by current locomotives for the same distance, and there are no mountain rangess or swamps in the open Atlantic. Chuck (Ex engine cadet who aced naval architecture) New York to Baltimore (or Boston)? I've seen some online discussion & proposals for the reintroduction of short sea shipping along the East Coast using smaller container vessels and RO-RO truck ferries (the latter generally hauling trailers only sans tractors). I don't see how an Alaska style railcar barge/ferry system would offer any additional benefit in those service lanes. After all loose car railroading is all about heavier,bulkier loads which are not as time sensitive as intermodal. In addition a shipper would be paying to move a lot of Tare weight (i.e the mass of the railcars). The current rail ferry/car float operations in North America tend to be to "You can't get there from here (by rail anyway)" destinations and that seems to be where the concept makes economic sense.. Not domestic. BA = Buenos Aires. After all, the topic is a rail connection between North America and South America. Note the term Roll On - Roll Off (RORO) means an operation akin to that of a Great Lakes car ferry, not the Alaska Railway barge. Chuck
carnej1 tomikawaTT For that matter, there's no reason that a rail -RORO ship can't be engined for 24 knot speed. The total diesel consumption for the NY - BA run would almost certainly be less than that of a train hauled by current locomotives for the same distance, and there are no mountain rangess or swamps in the open Atlantic. Chuck (Ex engine cadet who aced naval architecture) New York to Baltimore (or Boston)? I've seen some online discussion & proposals for the reintroduction of short sea shipping along the East Coast using smaller container vessels and RO-RO truck ferries (the latter generally hauling trailers only sans tractors). I don't see how an Alaska style railcar barge/ferry system would offer any additional benefit in those service lanes. After all loose car railroading is all about heavier,bulkier loads which are not as time sensitive as intermodal. In addition a shipper would be paying to move a lot of Tare weight (i.e the mass of the railcars). The current rail ferry/car float operations in North America tend to be to "You can't get there from here (by rail anyway)" destinations and that seems to be where the concept makes economic sense..
tomikawaTT
For that matter, there's no reason that a rail -RORO ship can't be engined for 24 knot speed. The total diesel consumption for the NY - BA run would almost certainly be less than that of a train hauled by current locomotives for the same distance, and there are no mountain rangess or swamps in the open Atlantic.
Chuck (Ex engine cadet who aced naval architecture)
New York to Baltimore (or Boston)?
I've seen some online discussion & proposals for the reintroduction of short sea shipping along the East Coast using smaller container vessels and RO-RO truck ferries (the latter generally hauling trailers only sans tractors).
I don't see how an Alaska style railcar barge/ferry system would offer any additional benefit in those service lanes. After all loose car railroading is all about heavier,bulkier loads which are not as time sensitive as intermodal. In addition a shipper would be paying to move a lot of Tare weight (i.e the mass of the railcars).
The current rail ferry/car float operations in North America tend to be to "You can't get there from here (by rail anyway)" destinations and that seems to be where the concept makes economic sense..
Not domestic. BA = Buenos Aires. After all, the topic is a rail connection between North America and South America.
Note the term Roll On - Roll Off (RORO) means an operation akin to that of a Great Lakes car ferry, not the Alaska Railway barge.
Chuck
I'm not sure a roro car ferry would work into Buenos Aires. Isn't there a gauge break?
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
tomikawaTT Murphy Siding Lack of any key product needing shipping that is time sensitive enough to preclude using what must be a lot cheaper ocean going boats? Considering the cruising speed of a modern containership versus rail speed on a far more circuitous route beset by mountain grades (and a myriad of stops for customs inspection/shakedowns) my choice for time-sensitive cargo would be ship, not train. For that matter, there's no reason that a rail -RORO ship can't be engined for 24 knot speed. The total diesel consumption for the NY - BA run would almost certainly be less than that of a train hauled by current locomotives for the same distance, and there are no mountain rangess or swamps in the open Atlantic. Chuck (Ex engine cadet who aced naval architecture)
Murphy Siding Lack of any key product needing shipping that is time sensitive enough to preclude using what must be a lot cheaper ocean going boats?
Lack of any key product needing shipping that is time sensitive enough to preclude using what must be a lot cheaper ocean going boats?
Considering the cruising speed of a modern containership versus rail speed on a far more circuitous route beset by mountain grades (and a myriad of stops for customs inspection/shakedowns) my choice for time-sensitive cargo would be ship, not train.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
blue streak 1 Leo_Ames Just loose bulk cargo in the holds of a bulk carrier, like iron ore, can shift in severe wave action and create a dangerous list. Edmond Fitzgerald ?
Leo_Ames Just loose bulk cargo in the holds of a bulk carrier, like iron ore, can shift in severe wave action and create a dangerous list.
Something coming loose could've played a role. But I doubt her load of taconite caused any troubles since she never reported a list and was in regular radio contact before she disappeared.
Some speculate that something like cargo off another ship that was floating in the heavy seas came aboard and caused hatch damage, causing her to start taking on water.
I've also seen it speculated that a spare propeller blade stored on the fantail might've came loose in the storm and been responsible for the broken fence railing that the Fitzgerald's captain, Ernest Sorely, reported to the captain of the Arthur M. Anderson which had been accompanying her 10-15 miles back the whole trip.
But most figure this happened since she probably was hogging as she took on water after likely bottoming out on a shoal that wasn't marked on the maps that the Fitzgerald had. This created pressure in the midsection as the ship was weighed down at the bow and stern, causing the railing failure. She gradually lost buoyancy to such a degree that she couldn't recover from rogue waves (Three of which the Anderson went through in short succession) and took a nose dive.
Leo_Ames MidlandMike In the early days of Great Lakes car ferries, one was sunk by following seas. After that they were fitted with a sea-gate If you're talking about the SS Milwaukee, she had a sea gate not unlike what much more modern vessels had. But freight cars apparently broke free and crashed through it in the rough seas.
MidlandMike In the early days of Great Lakes car ferries, one was sunk by following seas. After that they were fitted with a sea-gate
In the early days of Great Lakes car ferries, one was sunk by following seas. After that they were fitted with a sea-gate
If you're talking about the SS Milwaukee, she had a sea gate not unlike what much more modern vessels had. But freight cars apparently broke free and crashed through it in the rough seas.
I re-read the car ferry chapter from the book Where Rails Meet the Sea. On p76 it talks about early AA ferry design with the open stern that was susepible to following seas, but did not give an example. On p80 they talk about the SS Milwaukee, and that the sea gate got bent and was taking on water fast. (could the sea gate have got bent when a rail car rolled onto it?). I guess I conflated the two stories.
For that matter, there's no reason that a rail -RORO ship can't be engined for 24 knot speed. The total diesel consumption for the NY - BA run would almost certainly be less than that of a train hauled by current locomotives for the same distance, and there are no mountain ranges or swamps in the open Atlantic.
Norm48327 Leo, One thing I noticed in the video was that they have some sort of mechanism to secure the cars and not have to rely on brakes. They's likely have to rip out part of the ship to go overboard.
Leo,
One thing I noticed in the video was that they have some sort of mechanism to secure the cars and not have to rely on brakes. They's likely have to rip out part of the ship to go overboard.
Great Lakes carferries did as well, as mentioned. But in a bad storm, it's not unheard of for even secured cargo to break loose.
Just loose bulk cargo in the holds of a bulk carrier, like iron ore, can shift in severe wave action and create a dangerous list.
Norm48327 Johnny, I saw a similar ship in Newport, Rhode Island. It is used to transport yachts and is also open on the stern.
Johnny,
I saw a similar ship in Newport, Rhode Island. It is used to transport yachts and is also open on the stern.
The Dockwise ship is of quite a different design than the rail ferry: the heavy lift ship has ballast tanks that allow the lower hull to submerge like a drydock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot5tzEHKktU
That video was shot of off Newport BTW..
The rail ferry is an open stern vessel without a lot of freeboard like most "Roll on-Roll off" ferry designs...
I would assume that they use a method similar to that the Great Lakes ferries used. It included wheel chocks clamped to the rail, jacks and tie-down devices.
Norm
The ship moves faster than any following sea? There's a strong fan on the fantail? Or, the scuppers are expecting to quickly handle any water that may be shipped?
I was a bit surprised to see no way of closing the opening. I think of the BC ferries that have watertight closure at both ends.
Johnny
wanswheel Bali Sea's lower deck looks pretty close to the water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y0JnpeCdoQ
Ship's registry - Singapore for a ship operating between Mobile, AL and Veracruz. Doesn't look like the fantail has much protection against following seas.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Wikipedia has a page on CG Railways, and a photo of the Bali Sea at the Coatzacoalcos loading facility. The photo has a lot of detail, and seems to be too large to display here, so the image below is a smaller version of the same photo from VesselTracker.com
Here is the Wiki page link, and you can also find a link to the larger image there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CG_Railway
(click on the photo at Wikipedia to load the large version)
Norm48327Found this tidbit on line: Bali Sea and Banda Sea . Each 595' × 117', 21,000 DWT roll-on/roll-off vessel has eight tracks on the top and seven on the bottom totaling about 7,000 linear feet. Adding the second deck increased capacity on each ship from 58 to 115 railcars. The ships' average speed is 10.5 to 12 knots. - See more at: http://www.workboat.com/newsdetail.aspx?id=4294974887#sthash.7mnjzvSt.dpuf
Thanks, Norm 48327:
(Temporarily off topic) That linked story you provided was a look into what might be traveling on the "RR in the Gulf of Mexico" @ http://www.workboat.com/newsdetail.aspx?id=4294974887#sthash.vJLFdFLu.dpuf
"Riding the RailsGulf railcar service reduces cross-border cargo transit times" by Dale K. DuPont 11/1/2007 -
FTA:"...Its vessels haul carloads of Corona beer, forest products and chemicals every four days across the Gulf of Mexico.CG Railway Inc.'s unique rail-ferry operation is selling faster transport times and fewer hassles via an approximately 900-mile ocean highway between Mobile, Ala., and Coatzacoalcos, Mexico...International Shipholding Corp. (ISC) formed the short-line railroad in March 2000 and began service in early 2001 with two single-deck ships to handle the crush of commerce created by the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). CGR connects major railways serving the U.S. and Canada with the railways of central and southern Mexico.
[Another thing that it could be said to do is protect the cargo's from various, lawless groups in Mexico, and Central America(?)]
A lot of countries would have to change their politics and governments first. KCS is learning what an unreliable partner Mexico may turn out to be, as that country's lower legislative house has voted to force "open access" on the KCS years ahead of schedule.
The photo Rader Sidetrack linked to is apparently the ship " Bali Sea". A rough count of the weather deck shows seven tracks and approx 56 cars. It would be interesting to know how many decks there are on the ships ( They appear to be of the similar designs(?).
As a side thought; for years, equipment into Mexico was problematic. I know that many times trucking operators have received trailers at the US side of the border, stripped of much stuff( any plywood or flooring, lights wiring and tires and rims). A previous employer, of mine, suffered so much damage on trailers in Mexico, they eatablished a terminal yard in Mexico City; the job there was to photograph each trailer and record any damages, for which our Mexican partner carrier was responsible. Our terminal at Laredo,Tx photoed the equipment going into Mexico. At any given time our trailer count in Mexico was three to five hundred trailers. I wonder if the Rail Cars going in have similar issues?
MidlandMike There is some pollitical and environmental opposition to bridging the Darien Gap at the isthmus. It acts as a natural barrier to migration of invasive species and I supose other undesirable things. I don't concur that it is effective, but it seems to have stopped the Pan-Am Highway.
There is some pollitical and environmental opposition to bridging the Darien Gap at the isthmus. It acts as a natural barrier to migration of invasive species and I supose other undesirable things. I don't concur that it is effective, but it seems to have stopped the Pan-Am Highway.
In order to have a viable direct rail connection to South America, each of the participants along the way has to be economically affordable and reasonably reliable.
Note that CG Railway runs a 'railroad ferry' operation between Mobile Alabama and Coatzacoalcos, Mexico. This is not some marginal operation done with a couple of ancient carfloat barges and hired tugboats, these are oceangoing ships with rails.
Photo linked from the CG Railway website: http://www.cgrailway.com/index.html This ferry operation is not to some isolated rail connection in Coatzacoalcos as Coatzacoalcos is also served directly by Mexican railroad Ferrosur. If CGRailway can make a business out of short-hauling the western US railroads and their northern Mexican interchange partners via 'rail ships', it seems pretty clear to me that most South American points could be more economically served in a similar manner by 'rail ships' rather than a direct rail connection.
This ferry operation is not to some isolated rail connection in Coatzacoalcos as Coatzacoalcos is also served directly by Mexican railroad Ferrosur.
If CGRailway can make a business out of short-hauling the western US railroads and their northern Mexican interchange partners via 'rail ships', it seems pretty clear to me that most South American points could be more economically served in a similar manner by 'rail ships' rather than a direct rail connection.
If it was all standard gauge from one end to the other, how many companies that own railroad cars would be very apprehensive to their cars ending up in countries with unstable governments who might just nationalize their railroad cars?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Sam- Upon a closer look of the map linked in your post, I see that they must be refering to the Dalton road from Fairbanks north to Prudhoe Bay. The lines drawn on the map show the road going southeast from Prudhoe Bay into far nortwestern Canada. Slitting hairs I suppose, but that's like showing the 20th Century Limited running from Chicago to New York via Louisville. But, it did make me go learn about the Dalton Highway and Prudhoe Bay. 500 miles on gravel, 12% grades, and they run tourist busses there in the summer! Good times!
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
[quote user="Murphy Siding"]
Sam- The map of the highway gave me a good chuckle, as I truely don't believe the segment going to Prudhoe bay exists. I know that there are products that could ship between the Americas by train. I'm just kind of doubting that anything that would/could ship by train over that route could be time sensitive enough to warrant paying the higher price of rails over ocean waters. It's the same doubts that come up in the semi-annual North America to Asia thread. You can ship stuff on the train, but is there an advantage to shipping it by train?
[/quote]
Murphy Siding:
In fact that psrt you mentioned the Fairbanks to Prudhoe Bay (Alaska) is inclusive of the what some may refer to as the " Haul Road"( built to service the Alesyka/Alaska Pipeline to the Oil Fied at Prudhoe(?).
The other fact that I found of some interest is that at some point, legislatively, The U.S. Interstate Highway net has bee incoporated by Congress intothe Pan American Highway System. The Exit for that System is at the Port of Laredo,Texas onto the Mexican section of the Pan Am Highway.
I have no idea how it(Pan-AM Hwy) runs through Mexico, and beyond the Panama Canal, but I do know that the Trucking Company,(then based in Memphis, Tn)that I worked for then, had some photos taken by an employee on vacation of our Company trailers(53'Trailers) on the South Side of the Panama Canal ( pulled by road tractors of our Mexican-based partner Carrier).
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