We've had a few threads about brdiging the Bering Straight and linking North America and Asia by rail. But what about linking North and South America by rail? Would that be feasable? Would there ever be a market for such a link?
Some of the obstacles would be:
1. Railroads in most of the Central American countries are narrow gauge and either badly run-down or abandoned completly.
2. A bridge accross the Panama Canal. My gues is this would need to be a very large bascule bridge.
3. Ongoing violence and unrest in Columbia.
4. Gauge breaks.
Any other obsticles?
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Lack of any key product needing shipping that is time sensitive enough to preclude using what must be a lot cheaper ocean going boats?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Don't forget we will have to crazies saying this is just another ploy for American Imperialism.
The Pan-American Highway, a network of major roadways from Alaska to Argentina, actually has a 60 mile break in Panama. Not the Canal, but swamps, wetlands, and impossible conditions to build and maintain a road. If a road can't get through, rail would be even more cost-prohibitive.
1903 article from American Druggist and Pharmaceutical Record
The All-Americas Railroad
The most gigantic railroad scheme ever contemplated, of far greater magnitude than the Trans-Siberian Railway or even the Cape-to-Cairo line, has been revived and active steps are now being taken toward its realization. The project contemplates nothing less than connecting the vast railway systems of the United States with those of the South American republics, thereby affording a through rail service from New York and other trade centers of North America to the southernmost points reached by the South American railroads. In fact, if the great Pan-American system becomes a reality, it will be possible to travel or send freight from New York or other points across two continents, possibly without change of cars, to the most southern points in South America, for both Argentine and Chili are now building southward to Cape Horn.
Andrew Carnegie has become actively interested in the undertaking, the accomplishment of which would mean so much in developing our trade relations with South America. That he is in earnest is shown by the fact that he has offered to pay the expenses of a Pan-American commissioner to visit various South American republics to secure their co-operation, and should the South Americans receive the project favorably Mr. Carnegie agrees to finance the scheme of a Pan-American railway and raise the sum required to construct the necessary connecting links of railroad between New York and Buenos Ayres. The total distance between these two cities is about 10,000 miles, of which fully 5,000 miles remain to be built, or a distance in itself as great as the entire length of the Trans-Siberian Railway.
Some 13 years ago the project was taken up by James G. Blaine, who was then Secretary of State. A Pan-American Congress was held at Washington and Mr. Blaine worked indefatigably to put the plan through. This Government appropriated $360,000 for surveys which were made, but after Mr. Blaine's death little if any progress was made until last year when, at the Pan-American Congress at the City of Mexico, it was recommended that the United States take the initiative and carry out the recommendations made by that congress. Secretary Hay has accordingly just appointed Charles M. Pepper a special commissioner to the South American republics and Mr. Carnegie has agreed to defray the expenses of this investigation. It is a singular coincidence that A. J. Cassatt, who was chairman of the first Pan-American Congress in 1890, is now president of the Pennsylvania Railroad, which has a mileage exactly equal to the distance from New York to Buenos Ayres, and which will form the first section of the through route of the proposed Pan-American Railway.
Some progress has been made on the intercontinental railroad since the United States surveys were made, and it will soon be possible to travel by direct train from New York to Ayutla, on the border of Guatemala, a distance of about 3,700 miles. From that point to Cuzco in the mountains of southern Peru, however, some 5,000 miles of railroad will have to be built.
The American Druggist has already called attention to the opportunities for trade in South America, from the druggists' standpoint and It requires no argument to show the vast importance of such a Pan-American railway as a factor in increasing commerce with the South American republics.
The United States imports from Central and South America at present amount to about $120,000,000, or, approximately, 14 per cent of our total imports, while our exports to those countries amount only to some $52,000,000, or 10 per cent of their imports. Mexico, on the other hand, owing to her railway connections, sends to the United States fully 70 per cent of her exports and imports from this country goods of an equal value.
Extensive as is the present project for an intercontinental railway, the route of which is shown in the accompanying map, there is reason to believe that by the time it is completed, the system will be much more extensive. As already noted, both Argentine and Chili are building railroads southward to the Cape; Canada is also constructing a line to Alaska, which American capital may extend further north, possibly to meet the railroad already being built southward from Cape Nome. A few years hence, therefore, America may have a cape-to-cape railway some 15,000 miles in length.
The cost of constructing the necessary links in the proposed Pan-American railway is estimated at $200,000,000, which is, approximately, the cost of the Trans-Siberian Railway, and it will probably take ten years to build these connecting links. At an average speed of 25 miles an hour, it is reckoned that it will take some 17 days and nights to make the trip from New York to Buenos Ayres.
Murphy Siding Lack of any key product needing shipping that is time sensitive enough to preclude using what must be a lot cheaper ocean going boats?
Murphy Siding;
Trying to remember my College Geography lessons. I seem to remember when it was first proposed back in the 1930's, The Pan American Convention routing was to be built as a railroad. Obviously, that idea did not get very far.
I think that the treaty for the completion of the route was signed in the last of 1936 in Buenos Aires(?) and was to study and construct a land route/highway from the United States to Tierra del Fuego.
Here is a recent map (with photos) that shows the route of the Pan American Highway from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska to Tierra Del Fuego,Argentina.. @ http://mentalfloss.com/article/57218/all-american-road-trip-18-stops-pan-american-highway
There is still a gap at the Panama Canal ( Darien Gap) but according to information, the route has been legislated to be complete except fo the Gap in Panama which requires a ferry ride, and includes by legislation the entire US Interstate Highway system.
Tomaybe, answer Murphy Siding's question about commerce: Produce would be one, furniture, another, clothing(?).. and then there are the obvious illegal activities that have markets in the USA. And with the open borders we now seem to have maybe AMTRAK could sell lots of tickets, I am certain the people making the trip from Central Amaerica, would pay for seats INSIDE the trains; rather than on top of the freight cars they currently utilize for their trip.
Maybe an HSR line would be safer than on top of a mixed train? Surely, that would offer Mexican outlaws fewer opportunities to ply their trades?
wanswheel1903 article from American Druggist and Pharmaceutical Record The All-Americas Railroad
The cavalier routing of some of the little railroad tracks on that map near takes my breath away!
Part of the "5000 miles to Cuzco" section appears to pass close to the west end of the runways for the best location for an orbital port, east (and considerably above) Quito, Ecuador. Be interesting to see the helper power that would be used.
The straight transAndean links would be interesting, too, considering how a couple of them were built as standalone lines.
Sam- The map of the highway gave me a good chuckle, as I truely don't believe the segment going to Prudhoe bay exists. I know that there are products that could ship between the Americas by train. I'm just kind of doubting that anything that would/could ship by train over that route could be time sensitive enough to warrant paying the higher price of rails over ocean waters. It's the same doubts that come up in the semi-annual North America to Asia thread. You can ship stuff on the train, but is there an advantage to shipping it by train?
Wizlish wanswheel 1903 article from American Druggist and Pharmaceutical Record The All-Americas Railroad The cavalier routing of some of the little railroad tracks on that map near takes my breath away! Part of the "5000 miles to Cuzco" section appears to pass close to the west end of the runways for the best location for an orbital port, east (and considerably above) Quito, Ecuador. Be interesting to see the helper power that would be used. The straight transAndean links would be interesting, too, considering how a couple of them were built as standalone lines.
wanswheel 1903 article from American Druggist and Pharmaceutical Record The All-Americas Railroad
There have been several government overthrows in central and south America since this rail line was first proposed, and some of the existing lines were probably nationalized in the process.
A recent program from the U.K. called "Great Railway Journeys" outlines the trials and tribulations of the reporter trying to get to the southern tip of Patagonia by rail, only to learn that many of the rail lines have been abandoned by the government and trains no longer run on many of the existing lines.
In short, several central and south American governments have abandoned rail.
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Murphy Siding:
In fact that psrt you mentioned the Fairbanks to Prudhoe Bay (Alaska) is inclusive of the what some may refer to as the " Haul Road"( built to service the Alesyka/Alaska Pipeline to the Oil Fied at Prudhoe(?).
The other fact that I found of some interest is that at some point, legislatively, The U.S. Interstate Highway net has bee incoporated by Congress intothe Pan American Highway System. The Exit for that System is at the Port of Laredo,Texas onto the Mexican section of the Pan Am Highway.
I have no idea how it(Pan-AM Hwy) runs through Mexico, and beyond the Panama Canal, but I do know that the Trucking Company,(then based in Memphis, Tn)that I worked for then, had some photos taken by an employee on vacation of our Company trailers(53'Trailers) on the South Side of the Panama Canal ( pulled by road tractors of our Mexican-based partner Carrier).
Sam- Upon a closer look of the map linked in your post, I see that they must be refering to the Dalton road from Fairbanks north to Prudhoe Bay. The lines drawn on the map show the road going southeast from Prudhoe Bay into far nortwestern Canada. Slitting hairs I suppose, but that's like showing the 20th Century Limited running from Chicago to New York via Louisville. But, it did make me go learn about the Dalton Highway and Prudhoe Bay. 500 miles on gravel, 12% grades, and they run tourist busses there in the summer! Good times!
If it was all standard gauge from one end to the other, how many companies that own railroad cars would be very apprehensive to their cars ending up in countries with unstable governments who might just nationalize their railroad cars?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
There is some pollitical and environmental opposition to bridging the Darien Gap at the isthmus. It acts as a natural barrier to migration of invasive species and I supose other undesirable things. I don't concur that it is effective, but it seems to have stopped the Pan-Am Highway.
In order to have a viable direct rail connection to South America, each of the participants along the way has to be economically affordable and reasonably reliable.
Note that CG Railway runs a 'railroad ferry' operation between Mobile Alabama and Coatzacoalcos, Mexico. This is not some marginal operation done with a couple of ancient carfloat barges and hired tugboats, these are oceangoing ships with rails.
Photo linked from the CG Railway website: http://www.cgrailway.com/index.html This ferry operation is not to some isolated rail connection in Coatzacoalcos as Coatzacoalcos is also served directly by Mexican railroad Ferrosur. If CGRailway can make a business out of short-hauling the western US railroads and their northern Mexican interchange partners via 'rail ships', it seems pretty clear to me that most South American points could be more economically served in a similar manner by 'rail ships' rather than a direct rail connection.
This ferry operation is not to some isolated rail connection in Coatzacoalcos as Coatzacoalcos is also served directly by Mexican railroad Ferrosur.
If CGRailway can make a business out of short-hauling the western US railroads and their northern Mexican interchange partners via 'rail ships', it seems pretty clear to me that most South American points could be more economically served in a similar manner by 'rail ships' rather than a direct rail connection.
MidlandMike There is some pollitical and environmental opposition to bridging the Darien Gap at the isthmus. It acts as a natural barrier to migration of invasive species and I supose other undesirable things. I don't concur that it is effective, but it seems to have stopped the Pan-Am Highway.
Johnny
The photo Rader Sidetrack linked to is apparently the ship " Bali Sea". A rough count of the weather deck shows seven tracks and approx 56 cars. It would be interesting to know how many decks there are on the ships ( They appear to be of the similar designs(?).
As a side thought; for years, equipment into Mexico was problematic. I know that many times trucking operators have received trailers at the US side of the border, stripped of much stuff( any plywood or flooring, lights wiring and tires and rims). A previous employer, of mine, suffered so much damage on trailers in Mexico, they eatablished a terminal yard in Mexico City; the job there was to photograph each trailer and record any damages, for which our Mexican partner carrier was responsible. Our terminal at Laredo,Tx photoed the equipment going into Mexico. At any given time our trailer count in Mexico was three to five hundred trailers. I wonder if the Rail Cars going in have similar issues?
Norm
A lot of countries would have to change their politics and governments first. KCS is learning what an unreliable partner Mexico may turn out to be, as that country's lower legislative house has voted to force "open access" on the KCS years ahead of schedule.
Norm48327Found this tidbit on line: Bali Sea and Banda Sea . Each 595' × 117', 21,000 DWT roll-on/roll-off vessel has eight tracks on the top and seven on the bottom totaling about 7,000 linear feet. Adding the second deck increased capacity on each ship from 58 to 115 railcars. The ships' average speed is 10.5 to 12 knots. - See more at: http://www.workboat.com/newsdetail.aspx?id=4294974887#sthash.7mnjzvSt.dpuf
Thanks, Norm 48327:
(Temporarily off topic) That linked story you provided was a look into what might be traveling on the "RR in the Gulf of Mexico" @ http://www.workboat.com/newsdetail.aspx?id=4294974887#sthash.vJLFdFLu.dpuf
"Riding the RailsGulf railcar service reduces cross-border cargo transit times" by Dale K. DuPont 11/1/2007 -
FTA:"...Its vessels haul carloads of Corona beer, forest products and chemicals every four days across the Gulf of Mexico.CG Railway Inc.'s unique rail-ferry operation is selling faster transport times and fewer hassles via an approximately 900-mile ocean highway between Mobile, Ala., and Coatzacoalcos, Mexico...International Shipholding Corp. (ISC) formed the short-line railroad in March 2000 and began service in early 2001 with two single-deck ships to handle the crush of commerce created by the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). CGR connects major railways serving the U.S. and Canada with the railways of central and southern Mexico.
[Another thing that it could be said to do is protect the cargo's from various, lawless groups in Mexico, and Central America(?)]
Wikipedia has a page on CG Railways, and a photo of the Bali Sea at the Coatzacoalcos loading facility. The photo has a lot of detail, and seems to be too large to display here, so the image below is a smaller version of the same photo from VesselTracker.com
Here is the Wiki page link, and you can also find a link to the larger image there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CG_Railway
(click on the photo at Wikipedia to load the large version)
wanswheel Bali Sea's lower deck looks pretty close to the water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y0JnpeCdoQ
Ship's registry - Singapore for a ship operating between Mobile, AL and Veracruz. Doesn't look like the fantail has much protection against following seas.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The ship moves faster than any following sea? There's a strong fan on the fantail? Or, the scuppers are expecting to quickly handle any water that may be shipped?
I was a bit surprised to see no way of closing the opening. I think of the BC ferries that have watertight closure at both ends.
Johnny,
I saw a similar ship in Newport, Rhode Island. It is used to transport yachts and is also open on the stern.
In the early days of Great Lakes car ferries, one was sunk by following seas. After that they were fitted with a sea-gate
MidlandMike In the early days of Great Lakes car ferries, one was sunk by following seas. After that they were fitted with a sea-gate
If you're talking about the SS Milwaukee, she had a sea gate not unlike what much more modern vessels had. But freight cars apparently broke free and crashed through it in the rough seas.
Leo,
One thing I noticed in the video was that they have some sort of mechanism to secure the cars and not have to rely on brakes. They's likely have to rip out part of the ship to go overboard.
I would assume that they use a method similar to that the Great Lakes ferries used. It included wheel chocks clamped to the rail, jacks and tie-down devices.
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