Operations Question

[n012944]

ROBERT WILLISON

The very nature of intermodal freight is to gather loads in a regional terminals and provide high speed scheduled service. They might block those loads on a regular train as if they were grain cars but they won't stop a intermodal train. Intermodal trains are  time sensitive premium service. Just truck the loads to the terminal.

 

 

SOME intermodal trains are time sensitive premium service.  Some are nothing more than slop freight.  

[tree68]

The short line in Utica, NY routinely leaves the cars to be picked up on air, along with an air slip.  All CSX has to do is stop, tie down their train on the main (two tracks there), go in, pick up the cars, come back out, couple on, and do an air (EOT) test.

Their pickups aren't usually over 15 cars, so by the time the train is recharged from the emergency application that occured when they originally broke away from their train, the conductor can be back on board, or shortly thereafter, with the brake test occuring soon after..

The switch is a hand-throw, and there's a derailer to handle as well, but they aren't far apart.

Time can't be too important all the time, even on a line as busy as CSX's Chicago Line.  One morning I came into the yard to run one of our trains just in time to see the conductor returning to the train with a carry-out tray from a nearby donut shop.  I figure they had the main tied for better than an hour that time.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

dehusman

You will have to do a pretty slick job of selling that to the railroad.  It will not be popular to propose stopping an intermodal train on the main track to pick up 30 boxes.

Will your economics work if you have to build a 10,000 ft siding with dual control switches at each end to allow the train to pull off the main track to make the pick up?

Figure roughly about:

-  $250K for each turnout (switch) as a Controlled Point = $0.5 Million

- $100 per Track-Foot (no grading, etc.) x 10,000 ft. = $1.0 Million

Add $50/ft. for some grading, sub-ballast, minor drainage, etc. = $0.5 million.

Per my usual rule of thumb, the capital recovery rate at 6.0% interest over 30 years is about $6.00 per $1,000 per month ($72 per year), or $6,000 per $1 Million per month ($72,000 per year).  $6,000 per month for $1 Million is about $200 per day (30 days), so $2 million would be $400 per day, and so on.  If the volume is 20 to 30 containers, that siding would add $15 to $20 to ??? to each - probabaly less than the cost of the dray.  So paying for such a siding would add some cost, but not necessarily be a deal-breaker, IMHO. 

Hope there's no major bridges within that distance - either the railroad over something, or a road over the railroad - that would have to be added/ replaced/ widened, nor any major cuts, fills, wetlands, etc.  

That said, if the main line is so busy that such a siding is needed, then the siding would probably also be useful to the railroad for other traffic, MOW set-offs, etc., during the other 23 hours of the day that the proposed shipper wouldn't be using it.  Excluding the railroad from the siding during that time would be impractical and wasteful - so a very interesting time-sharing and then cost-sharing negotiation should ensue.  No sense letting the value of such an asset get away for lack of ability to figure out how to divide it rationally and reasonably . . .  

- Paul North.    

[edblysard]

Work it this way…assume you have a 2 man crew and RCO locomotive, and have all the cars laced up and on air, and have been or are qualified to do an initial terminal air brake test, and have done so.

Main line train pulls past the switch leading to the cut of cars, your crew has them stop rear of the train just clear of the switch, removes the EOT, and your crew has the train back down to the new cut of cars, make the joint, cut in the air, drag the new rear back to the switch…your guys hang the EOT, do a quick set and release, confirm the brake pipe pressure, close the anglecock between the last two cars and have the engineer “plug” the EOT, (the last car should go into emergency)…confirm the EOT functions as required, send the main line train on its way…somewhere in there you get the air slip to the head end, most likely as they pass by on the first move.

Maybe 30 minutes?

Without your switch crew doing the work, at least an hour, if not more, and a lot of walking!

[edblysard]

greyhounds

 

Semper Vaporo

What is the difference between picking up one or two hopper, flat, gondola, etc, cars, versus 30 intermodal flat/well cars?

 

 

I don't know how many times I've watched a pick up or a set out off the head end.

The difference here is that I'm trying to save precious time.  The pick up here needs to be done as rapidly as possible.  No conductor walking 30 car lenghts.  Delay the intermodal train as little as possible.  Be stopped on the main line as little as possible.

I think I can put it all together except for any brake test that needs to be done after the cars are shoved on to the rear of the intermodal train.  I need to know what needs to be done and get an estimate of how long it would take.

 

If the cars had already had a initial terminal brake test and either been left “on air” or it had been “off air” less the 4 hours, once they were picked up, the EOT needs to be hung, armed, the brake pipe pressure confirmed, and the EOT emergency brake function tested.

 

Depending on how you went about picking up the cars, the longest part is getting the conductor back to the head end, unless “your” switch crew did the work…educated guess is close to a half hour if it is set up right.

 

[zugmann]

PNWRMNM

Agree with Zugman that you can save a lot of time and trouble with a fixed air system as compared to a loco. Do not agree with his stub track layout.

 

Reason I went with a stub - if we are doing hand-thrown, it's easier only having one switch to hand-throw.  If we're doing powered switches or CP points, then you're looking at major money for a small terminal.  

[PNWRMNM]

You really want to do the work from the head end, both set out and pick up.

Agree with Zugman that you can save a lot of time and trouble with a fixed air system as compared to a loco. Do not agree with his stub track layout.

I have not looked at Quincy on Google Earth but the original design had about 3000 feet of double ended working track. The main a Quincy is busy enough that it should have the ability for westward trains to clear the main for setout and eastward for the pickup. With 7000 foot long trains that is almost 5,000 feet each side of the working area. I expect switches and signals at both ends are controlled. The original design lacked the ability to clear the main and I think that was big part of the reason BNSF had no interest in using it.

It is a lot of facility, and a nice one if they built it out as described. Was all public funds of one type or another. Washington Ports can do about anything, including building intermodal facilities out in the country and getting State and Fec grants to help pay for it.

Figure about half an hour for setout and the same for pickup IF air test is good. Assume the railroad will require you to have the cut air tested so they can simply pick it up, make continuity test, and go.

Mac McCulloch

[zugmann]

greyhounds

 

For speculative reasons let us just say that there is a large shipper located many miles from the nearest intermodal terminal.   This distance currently makes intermodal uncompetitive for the business - which now moves by over the road trucking.  But, truck competitive intermodal trains serving distant terminals do run right by this shipper without stopping.

The potential volume for the railroad is 60 containers per day in 30 wells.  To be truck competitive the shipments must move intermodal.   What to do? That's not enough volume to justify a train originating at the shipper's facility, but it is enough volume to justify a small intermodal terminal to serve the shipper.

So the concept put forward is to: 1) build the small terminal,  2)  load the shipper's buiness at that terminal, 3) use a two person switch crew and a RC locomotive to add the shipper's business to the rear of an existing intermodal train that will be stopped for a pick up at the shipper's facility.

The switch crew will have the air pumped and ready on the wells to be added.  When the mainline train stops one member of the switch crew removes the end of train device, the wells to be added are shoved forward, the joint is made and tested, and the air is hooked up.  Then the switch locomotive is uncoupled and moved away.  An EOTD is placed at the end of the enlarged mainline train.

My questions are:

1) what kind of brake test needs to be done?

2) how long will that take?

3) have I described anything impractical, weird or downright silly?

 

 

For a terminal like that, you probaly won't even need a switch crew. Have 3-4 stub tracks: a track for inbounds/empty buckets, a track for the loaded ones to take out, and a storage/RIP track.  Load them from to the front back, so any extra empty buckets can simply be knifed off and left behind.

Use money from not having a switch crew to buy an air compressor and pay for a car inspector.  save a lot of time if the train can just grab and go instead of relying on a road conductor to do a initial terminal test.  Now you could get away with a class 2, but you can't pass another terminal with car inspectors on duty.  I believe that is a class 2 - or was that a 1a? 

But to inspect 30 cars?  It's going to take some time, especially considering walking conditions/weather  and how good the conductor is.  Figure at least 45mins - an hour.  Maybe more with some guys.

As far as your scenario having a switch crew take the marker off an inbound train to make the coupling, lace up cars, etc?  That is forbidden (at least for us, although I think it is a FRA thing)  A crew cannot perform work on another train like that.  Now if the switch crew had a conductor & utility combination, you could get away with the utiltity attaching himself to the road train, but otherwise the conductor needs to do the work to his own train.

Not a big deal, but I'd go for the head-end pickup and dropoff (but you have to watch trailing tonnage if you going to deliver empty buckets to this yard).  Ideally, train pulls up, conductor hops off, ties down behind the set-off, tests, cuts away, puts the setoff on a track, ties it down and tests, cuts away lite and grabs the pickup (already tested and on air), doubles to his train, unties rest of train, continuity test and goes to the head end.  30 cars isn't horrible to walk.  If you get more than that, maybe arrange for a ride.  (also if you have nearby road crossings you would be blocking throughout all of this). **

 

**- I used to do this on one of our road intermodal trains.  Set off and pickup a block that was already tested by a shortline/terminal road. Almost always on the head end.

[daveklepper]

How about having the intermodel train leave its terminal with the proper number of empty well cars on the rear.   The shipper's siding must be equipped with a switch at both ends and be long enough to hold the entire train.  The train moves into the siding, and cranes simply pick up the containers and place them on the welll cars.  The operation is performed by the industry's people, with the train conductor checking to insure safe locking of the containers to the wellcars, and in the case of double[stack, to each other.  The reverse is done for the empty containers or containers with a product that the industry needs for its product's production.

If traffic on the main line isn't heavy, then a siding would not be necessary.  The train would simply occupy the time for the loading and in reverse unloading of the well cars using the cranes.

And yes, the well cars could be on a manifest train to and from a terminal where the cars would be switched to an intermodal train.

[Uncle Jake]

There is about 4.5 miles of 2main track through Quincy with a crossover or two so they weren't tying up the main.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

I proposed pretty much this exact same scenario to an very experienced intermodal marketing guy who now works for a regional rail line.  He was receptive, but pointed out that there was no way the Class I - NS in this case - would create a less-than-trainload block of cars for that destination.  Also, the prospective receiver in that instance - a humonguous retailer - is a well-known pain in the wazoo to work with, and would drive the rates down so low that there'd be no money left in it to make it worthwhile.

For your and other scenarios, though, I like how you're thinking, and the thread of questions and responses (esp. Jeff Hergert, as usual).  Thanks to everyone.

- Paul North.         

[dehusman]

You will have to do a pretty slick job of selling that to the railroad.  It will not be popular to propose stopping an intermodal train on the main track to pick up 30 boxes.

Will your economics work if you have to build a 10,000 ft siding with dual control switches at each end to allow the train to pull off the main track to make the pick up?

 

[BaltACD]

greyhounds

 

Uncle Jake

The Cold Train operation in Quincy, WA was something like this, but they added the block to the front end using the road locomotives. The trains would be stopped in town for about an hour. Not sure if that helps.

 

 

Thank you.  That does help.  But blocking the main line for an hour is not an option.  Got to do it a better way.

 

One hour is about the normal time for any line of road pick up to take place - intermodal or otherwise.

[ROBERT WILLISON]

The very nature of intermodal freight is to gather loads in a regional terminals and provide high speed scheduled service. They might block those loads on a regular train as if they were grain cars but they won't stop a intermodal train. Intermodal trains are  time sensitive premium service. Just truck the loads to the terminal.

[greyhounds]

Uncle Jake

The Cold Train operation in Quincy, WA was something like this, but they added the block to the front end using the road locomotives. The trains would be stopped in town for about an hour. Not sure if that helps.

Thank you.  That does help.  But blocking the main line for an hour is not an option.  Got to do it a better way.

[greyhounds]

jeffhergert

The two person switch crew could do the brake test.  I know there are contract switching operations that have qualified people to do the test.

Then he elaborates.  Thank you Jeff.  That's what I needed to know.

[Uncle Jake]

The Cold Train operation in Quincy, WA was something like this, but they added the block to the front end using the road locomotives. The trains would be stopped in town for about an hour. Not sure if that helps.

[jeffhergert]

The two person switch crew could do the brake test.  I know there are contract switching operations that have qualified people to do the test.  I've seen the air brake notification slips that had the name of the companies, which weren't railroads.  (I'm not saying that all, or even most, have people qualified to do the tests.  Just that some do.)

The cars would have to have an initial terminal test done on them.  It could be done with the locomotive (most likely in this case) or with an air plant.  How long would depend on how long it takes to bring the train line up to the proper pressure,  set the brakes and walk the set, release the brakes and walk the release.  All the time doing the required safety inspection.  (There's also a leakeage component of the test, but wouldn't really require more time on a large cut of cars.)  If the track had a roadway on both sides, the person doing the inspection could drive the set and release.  If a car's brakes doesn't set up, it can be retested once.  On the retest, the brakes have to set and hold for 3 minutes. 

Assuming the cut passes the test, the cut is considered a solid block of cars and good for 4 hours off air.  Possibly some scheme could be worked out to provide an air source if pick up would be close to missing that 4 hour window. 

If the air test expires, than the train crew would have to redo the intial terminal test.  In any event, once the solid block is added to the train the train crew needs to do an application and release test to verify air brake continuity through out the train.

IMO, it would be almost as easy to just have the road crew use their engines and make the pick up on head end.  If the facility is being switched by a contract company, I would almost think they would have to have the railroad do the pick up.  I think it would be rare that a contract outfit would be allowed to come out onto the main track.  

The big question is, will the railroad stop one of those intermodals to do the pick up?  While they like the idea of business just being handed to them with mimimal work needing to be done by railroad employees, they may not want the best train from the customer's needs to do the work.  Instead have some low priority IM train do it.  Maybe even a manifest to haul it to the next yard where fueling and inspections are done.  

For a while, they were having one intermediate terminal try to have the outbound pick ups pretested so the road crews didn't have to.  I don't think that practice lasted too long.  The yard crews were the ones doing the test.  I think it was one of their last duties before tying up.  If it looked like the yard crew would get overtime, they didn't have them do the test.  Sometimes the expected train would arrive after the 4 hours expired, meaning the road crew had to do the intial test again.  The idea looked good on paper, but didn't pan out the way they expected.

Jeff

[greyhounds]

Semper Vaporo

What is the difference between picking up one or two hopper, flat, gondola, etc, cars, versus 30 intermodal flat/well cars?

I don't know how many times I've watched a pick up or a set out off the head end.

The difference here is that I'm trying to save precious time.  The pick up here needs to be done as rapidly as possible.  No conductor walking 30 car lenghts.  Delay the intermodal train as little as possible.  Be stopped on the main line as little as possible.

I think I can put it all together except for any brake test that needs to be done after the cars are shoved on to the rear of the intermodal train.  I need to know what needs to be done and get an estimate of how long it would take.

[Semper Vaporo]

There are still many grain shippers around now that do essentially the same thing.  There are also manufacturers that have take delivery of or ship raw materials in onesy/twosy carloads that the RR delivers/picks-up on some sort of schedule or on demand.  They have a siding on a mainline or spur off of it and have room for 2 to 20 or more cars and a small engine (sometimes a rubber tired device that just pushes the cars or pulls them with chains).  Sometimes an engine from the RR will come to spot cars.

The only thing that is different in your scenario is some method to lift the intermodal containers onto the cars instead of just parking the RR car under a spout to fill it or connecting a hose to empty it.  It makes no difference what kind of cars they are, you would have to do the same chores with regard to brakes or EOTD.

What is the difference between picking up one or two hopper, flat, gondola, etc, cars, versus 30 intermodal flat/well cars?

 

[greyhounds]

mudchicken

The shipper is paying for an AAR qualified mechanical man to sit out there for 8 hours to inspect 8-10 cars?

If that's what it takes, please tell me that.  It's quite possible to do.  What can the guy cost?  $60.00/hour?  That's $480/day which is chicken feed compared to the revenue on the stipulated 60 container loads.

mudchicken

The shipper is paying for blue-flag protection and piggypacker/straddlebuggy lease & operation costs?

If that's what it takes.  I just want know.  I'd assume the car knocker mentiioned above will do the blue flag protection (which would be included in the $480 allocated for said car knocker.)   The packer operator can be a part time contractor and the packer itself could be second hand.

mudchicken

Switch engine?

What do you want me to call it?  There is a need to shove the originating loads on to the back of the train.  If it's more efficient to do it with a 20 mule team, please tell me that.

mudchicken

Drayman + Intermodal really exceeds OTR fees these days?

Oh yes it does.  Otherwise there would not be 15 loads per day (on average) of apples being moved by over the road trucking from Washington state to Florida.

Please, someone, just tell me what kind of brake test would be required after the cars were added.  I do not see how a simple pick up en route would require an AAR qualified mechanical man, but if that's what it takes, I'll go with it.

So someone please just tell me what would be required and estimate how long it would take.

[mudchicken]

The shipper is paying for an AAR qualified mechanical man to sit out there for 8 hours to inspect 8-10 cars?

The shipper is paying for blue-flag protection and piggypacker/straddlebuggy lease & operation costs?

Switch engine?

Drayman + Intermodal really exceeds OTR fees these days?

[greyhounds]

 

For speculative reasons let us just say that there is a large shipper located many miles from the nearest intermodal terminal.   This distance currently makes intermodal uncompetitive for the business - which now moves by over the road trucking.  But, truck competitive intermodal trains serving distant terminals do run right by this shipper without stopping.

The potential volume for the railroad is 60 containers per day in 30 wells.  To be truck competitive the shipments must move intermodal.   What to do? That's not enough volume to justify a train originating at the shipper's facility, but it is enough volume to justify a small intermodal terminal to serve the shipper.

So the concept put forward is to: 1) build the small terminal,  2)  load the shipper's buiness at that terminal, 3) use a two person switch crew and a RC locomotive to add the shipper's business to the rear of an existing intermodal train that will be stopped for a pick up at the shipper's facility.

The switch crew will have the air pumped and ready on the wells to be added.  When the mainline train stops one member of the switch crew removes the end of train device, the wells to be added are shoved forward, the joint is made and tested, and the air is hooked up.  Then the switch locomotive is uncoupled and moved away.  An EOTD is placed at the end of the enlarged mainline train.

My questions are:

1) what kind of brake test needs to be done?

2) how long will that take?

3) have I described anything impractical, weird or downright silly?