Simple switching problem

[zugmann]

There's a response for you in your PM box, MC.

 

 

[mudchicken]

zugmann

 I did serve an industry like this once or twice on a local, hence where I came up with the idea - but the above is the way we did it.  What's frustrating is the tank track was a fairly new spur.  Why it was allowed to go in facing the opposite direction from their other track baffles me to this day. 

Zugs:

Without knowing more, what did the other end of the spur dead-end into? This is where the trainmaster usually speaks up and demands an explanation as to why there isn't a run-around track or some other solution. Is there some weird geometry or other constraint out there? (Twice in my career I've seen industries build new facilities where I've had to tell them that I couldn't get there from the existing railroad economically. One facility sued the building architect & engineer.  (They wound up knocking a third of that building down. The other switched to trucks and died inside of a year. That building, with a huge warehouse, is burning a hole in Louisiana Pacific Gypsum's annual budget as it sits empty with no buyer in sight to repurpose the building and site. A competing railroad with switching rights told them the same sad story within a week of us.)

[zugmann]

blhanel

So what's the verdict, Zug?  Am I off-base on anything?

I sometimes get the feeling that I'm persona-non-grata around here- the threads that I post in (which doesn't happen very often lately) tend to drop to the bottom of the list like a rock in a lake.

 

 

I have an old saying:  "there's a thousand ways to switch out a train, and they all suck!" But it is why we make the big (sic) bucks.

 

 

But yeah, you have a good handle on it.  Switch out the boxes first, stash the trailing engine on the box track, have the hogger pull ahead, swap over to the other engine to do the tanks.  There really is no correct answer.  I did serve an industry like this once or twice on a local, hence where I came up with the idea - but the above is the way we did it.  What's frustrating is the tank track was a fairly new spur.  Why it was allowed to go in facing the opposite direction from their other track baffles me to this day.

 

[blhanel]

So what's the verdict, Zug?  Am I off-base on anything?

I sometimes get the feeling that I'm persona-non-grata around here- the threads that I post in (which doesn't happen very often lately) tend to drop to the bottom of the list like a rock in a lake.

[jeffhergert]

I like the references to the initial terminal test, including testing the EOT.  However, both scenarios would require another test that hasn't been mentioned.  Anyone know what that would be?

In CTC under GCOR, and I assume under other rule books too in some variant, if the main track's maximum speed is above 20 mph, the hand throw switch isn't equipped with an electric lock or there isn't a signal governing movement over the switch to the main track (what we call a "leaving signal" or what KP calls in his Sunset thread, an "entrance signal"), you can't clear up a train or engine.  In those situations, you would have to leave the switch open.

Jeff  

[edblysard]

The original puzzle has you waiting on a train to pass before you can leave out of the industry.

[BigJim]

edblysard

A winner….the rules require, at least the GCOR does, that a main line switch must be restored for “normal” movement .(lined and locked if so equipped)   Even in CTC, there are still a lot of manual hand throw switches like this, so…the easiest way would be, on the initial shove back the engineer stops clear of the switch and lines/locks it for main line movement.   If there had been no following or opposing movement, I would ask the dispatcher if I could leave it lined for the industry, which is allowable, but only with permission from the dispatcher or control point operator.

Well, unless the dispatcher tells the crew that they need to clear up for another train, they can leave the switch open until they are done. It will have to be restored to its proper position before the crew leaves.

[blhanel]

I'll take a crack at the second one...

1.    Engineer drops conductor off at the first main line switch and drags the rear up to him, he removes the EOT, and places it near the switch.

2.    Engineer pulls ahead to clear the switch, conductor lines it for the boxcar siding, confirms it’s lined properly and no derails are in place, and then climbs the last car to ride back.

3.    Engineer shoves back to just short of boxcars in siding, conductor dismounts, engineer couples to boxcars in siding, conductor releases brakes and climbs onto the last car.

4.    Engineer pulls all cars from siding, stopping when last car has cleared switch.

5.    Conductor relines switch for main, hangs the EOT on last car, and climbs back onto it.

6.    Engineer shoves train back east until his engine is past both switches by at least four car lengths.

7.    Conductor ties handbrakes on MTs, uncouples load pulled from siding from them, and climbs onto load.

8.    Engineer pulls ahead until all cars are past the first switch, conductor dismounts and relines the switch for the boxcar siding, and climbs back onto the load.

9.    Engineer shoves load back into siding, conductor dismounts and sets handbrake on load, uncouples load from MT ahead of it, then climbs onto MT

10.Engineer pulls train back out of siding, stopping when rear is clear of switch.

11.Conductor dismounts, lines switch back for the main, and climbs back on.

12.Engineer shoves back to just short of tied-down MTs, conductor dismounts, and engineer finishes shove, coupling to MTs.

13.Conductor calls for three-step, laces up the MTs, uncouples the left-most MT from the last two loads, and climbs onto the load ahead of the MT.

14.Repeat Steps 8 through 12, dropping the remaining boxcar loads in the siding.

15.Conductor again calls for three-step, laces MTs to green cars, and walks forward to engines, uncoupling 16 from tanks.

16.Engineer pulls ahead until 16 clears the first switch, and conductor lines it again for boxcar siding.

17.Engineer pulls into siding and conductor cuts off 16 and secures it.

18.Engineer pulls 54 back onto main and conductor relines switch for main.

19.Engineer backs east and couples 54 onto train, conductor walks back, uncouples last tank load from rest of train, and climbs on last tank.

20.Engineer pulls tanks west until they clear both switches, ties down engine, releases coupler on first tank, and dismounts and walks to 16.  Meanwhile, conductor relines switch to boxcar siding.

21.Engineer pulls 16 out onto main and couples to rear of tank loads.

22.Engineer pulls tank loads until they clear the tank car siding switch, and conductor lines it for the siding, making sure there are no derails in place.

23.Conductor climbs on last tank and rides it up the siding, engineer stops short of coupling, conductor dismounts, and engineer completes shove to couple to MTs.

24.Conductor releases handbrakes on MTs and climbs on last MT.

25.Engineer pulls loads and MTs onto main, conductor relines switch for main and climbs back on last MT.

26.Engineer shoves MTs and loads to just short of 54, conductor dismounts, and engineer completes shove to couple MTs to 54.

27.Conductor walks back, uncouples loads from MTs, and climbs onto first load behind MTs.

28.Engineer pulls loads back until last one clears the tank car siding switch, conductor dismounts and relines switch for siding, then climbs back on.

29.Engineer shoves loads into siding.

30.Conductor sets handbrakes, uncouples engine, and climbs onto engine.

31.Engineer pulls engine out until it is just short of switch, and conductor dismounts and relines boxcar switch for siding.

32.Engineer pulls out of tank car siding and into boxcar siding, stops just inside of the siding and ties down 16.

33.Conductor relines both switches for the main, and both walk to 54 and the three MT tanks.

34.Conductor climbs onto the last tank and engineer shoves them back to just short of the rest of the train, conductor dismounts and engineer completes shove, coupling them up.

35.Conductor laces them up, walks forward to the engine, and uncouples it from the train.

36.Engineer pulls forward to clear the boxcar switch and conductor lines it for the siding again.

37.Engineer backs into siding and recouples engines together, conductor laces them up.

38.Engineer pulls out of siding and conductor relines it for the main.

39.Engineer backs east and couples to the train.  Conductor laces it up and engineer sets the brakes.

40.Conductor does first half of a walk set and initial terminal air brake test while walking to the rear.

41.Conductor arms the EOT, closes the air valve on the car just ahead of the one with the EOT, has the engineer pop the EOT from the head end to test if it sets the emergency brakes, and gets 3 step and opens the air valve

42.Once he confirms the EOT works, the engineer sets the brakes again, and the conductor walks back to the head end on the opposite side of the train from the one he first walked, doing the rest of initial terminal brake test and car inspection on the way.

 

43.And away they go…

 

I know I'm leaving out details, but what's important is the sequence to reduce steps on the ground.

[edblysard]

rdamon

After you cleared the main do you need to realign the switch for the other train to pass?

 

 

A winner….the rules require, at least the GCOR does, that a main line switch must be restored for “normal” movement .(lined and locked if so equipped)

 

Even in CTC, there are still a lot of manual hand throw switches like this, so…the easiest way would be, on the initial shove back the engineer stops clear of the switch and lines/locks it for main line movement.

 

If there had been no following or opposing movement, I would ask the dispatcher if I could leave it lined for the industry, which is allowable, but only with permission from the dispatcher or control point operator.

 

[Murphy Siding]

fluff

 

 

Murphy Siding

 

fluff

i would set those 5 loads in along with the second engine as they show in the picture, back out with the lead engine on the lead, then pull ahead and run around the mtys, couple up, back up enough the get the engine thats with the loads on the headend of the train back out on the main when you can and leave

 

 

 

 

   If I don't see a picture, do I have to figure out how to do it in the dark?

 no, look at the picture from the 1st post

 

 

 

 

 

    Therein lies the problem.  The Cookie Monster ate the picture in the first post.    For some reason, for me, there is only text, no photo, no link, no little box to click, no nothing.  ....And no damn spell czech!

[fluff]

Murphy Siding

 

fluff

i would set those 5 loads in along with the second engine as they show in the picture, back out with the lead engine on the lead, then pull ahead and run around the mtys, couple up, back up enough the get the engine thats with the loads on the headend of the train back out on the main when you can and leave

 

 

 

 

   If I don't see a picture, do I have to figure out how to do it in the dark?

 no, look at the picture from the 1st post

 

[rdamon]

Ok here is my shot at this ..  My lack of RR experience will shine through on this ..

Assuming all safety procedures, air/MU connections, hand brakes and other procedures are performed.
 

 

1. Cut two loaded red boxcars from green boxcars.
2. Pass and then back into “boxcar track” connecting to cars there.
3. Separate between cars two and three (loaded and MT) of the existing red boxcars
4. Pull back onto main and the back along the main to connect to two dropped red boxcars
5. Separate three loaded red boxcars
6. Return to boxcar track to retrieve remaining two red MT boxcars.
7. Return train to east side of switched on main connecting to three loaded boxcars
8. Cut consist and pull engine 54 onto boxcar track
9. Use #16 to pull three tank cars to west side of switches leaving plenty of room (5-6) car lengths
10. Used #54 to retrieve MT tank cars
11. Place three MT tank cars on west side connected to three full tank cars
12. Disconnect #54 and return it to boxcar track
13. Use #16 to place three MT tank cars with MT boxcars leaving 5-6 car lengths room on east side and return to west side with full tank cars
14. Use #54 to get full tank cars on tank car track and return to box car track
15. #16 couples to cars on east side on the main
16. #54 exits boxcar track and returns to lead position next to #16.
17. Pull entire train past the switched and back into box car track to drop the three loaded box cars.

[Deggesty]

Ed's description of handling the EOT sounds a lot simpler to me than the necessary shifting of a caboose would be.

[zugmann]

You all pretty much got it.  One or two of you maybe made yourself an extra move, but the basic gist was there.  100% all around. 

Another easy one:  On this local you have to serve this industry with both a facing and a trailing point switch.  You have some new gray tank car loads* for them (all their tank cars on hand are empty and need to be pulled), plus two red boxcars loads for them.  The customer has three empty (MT) boxcars to pull out, and one load that has to be placed back in the siding along with the new loads you brought in. 

The green cars are for another customer down the line.  When done, you need to have both the engines back on the west end.

 

*- tank car loads are non-hazardous, so no special placement rules apply.

 

[rdamon]

After you cleared the main do you need to realign the switch for the other train to pass?

 

[edblysard]

Convicted one has the fastest solution that requires the least walking and work…but remember, you have an EOT to hang, an initial terminal brake test to perform and time to kill

The only suggestion I would add to his version is to leave # 72 just inside the switch leading to the inbound tracks, on straight track about a locomotive length in.

Not real sure how detailed Zug wants you guys to get with the required steps or rules to follow, but keep in mind it is not as simple as coupling up and going, there is a criteria that has to be met and steps followed to comply with the rules…

To give you an idea….

Say I am the conductor, Zug is the engineer.

I drop off at the main line switch, Zug drags the rear up to me, I unlock and line the switch, confirm the switch is lined for our movement and no derails are in place, get a red zone or 3 step protection, remove the EOT, place it on the rear crossover platform,.

 Have Zug shove me back to the switch leading to the inbound or spot tracks, stop, toss the EOT off, line the switch and confirm to Zug it is lined and no derails are in place, ride the shove into the spot tracks, stop, get 3 step protection, tie the required hand brakes, walk to the locomotives and cut them away.(most carriers will not allow a blind shove into any industry, you have to ride to the stopping point or walk ahead of the movement).

Pull up, cut off # 72 and secure it just inside the spot track lead,, pick up the EOT, cut off and come out on #45, head down the runaround track, stop and hang the EOT on what will be the rear of the train, check for handbrakes, (hopefully the industry has placed the on the right hand cars in the drawing, the ones you will be coming against), and proceed down the runaround track, visually checking to see if the cars are all “laced up”  and looking for stray hand brakes…use tail track to get against the cut, get 3 step protection, cut in the air and remove the hand brakes…Zug pumps up the air.

As I walk to the rear, I do the first half of a walk set and initial terminal air brake test on whichever side I am on…get on the rear, shove back to the switch at the runaround, line it and confirm to Zug it is lined, no derails, shove back past the switch to the spot tracks, have Zug stop when he clears it.

Walk back to the switch, line Zug up for the couple up to #72, do so, MU the locomotives, and use one of the other spot tracks to drag the rear end to me, shove back out of the inbound tracks, when Zug again clears the switch leading to the spot tracks, have him stop, get 3 step protection, arm the EOT, close the air valve on the car just ahead of the one with the EOT, have Zug pop the EOT from the head end to test if it sets the emergency brakes…get 3 step and open the air valve..(You only need to test and make sure the EOT and locomotive are “talking” to each other and check if the EOT functions correctly, so you test just the last car, why put the whole train into emergency)

Once you confirm the EOT works, have Zug set the brakes again, and walk back to the head end on the opposite side of the train from the one I first walked, doing the rest of initial terminal brake test and car inspection on the way…line the switch at the spot tracks for the runaround, have Zug drag the rear as close to me as possible, mount up, ride back to the main line switch, drop off and line us out to main after getting permission, shove out onto the main, (I remain at the switch, you can shove back on a main to pick up a man with dispatchers permission and if you will not exceed your limits or foul another track or cross a public crossing) have Zug shove back to me,

Now both locomotives are back in their original configuration, we have them tail to tail and can ride #72 with the cab on the leading end, (short hood forward) , line and lock the main line switch for main line movement, (apply any required derails also) and head for the house.

What can seem like a few simple moves to those not in the industry requires a lot more work than originally assumed, and with a two man crew, conductor and brakeman plus the engineer, it will go a lot faster.

This is the kind of stuff we have to think through every day, several times a day…

And, after reading the puzzle again, I noticed we have an opposing or trailing movement we have to stay clear of, so I have forgotten one important step here.

Anyone see what that is?

[Convicted One]

I'd shove the in-bounds into their destination, leaving locomotive  #72 sitting on the spur with the inbounds, then I'd use the run around with engine#45  to get to the far side  of the outbounds, push them back to the lead, and then go back down onto the spur to pick up the other engine, then with #72 now the lead engine  back out onto the lead, then to the main.

[Murphy Siding]

fluff

i would set those 5 loads in along with the second engine as they show in the picture, back out with the lead engine on the lead, then pull ahead and run around the mtys, couple up, back up enough the get the engine thats with the loads on the headend of the train back out on the main when you can and leave

 

   If I don't see a picture, do I have to figure out how to do it in the dark?

[Norm48327]

OK, I'll take a stab at it.

Spot inbounds on inbound track.

Split power on runaround track.

Shove outbounds onto lead.

Re-hitch to locomotive on runaround track.

Hitch to outbounds and shove onto main.

[fluff]

i would set those 5 loads in along with the second engine as they show in the picture, back out with the lead engine on the lead, then pull ahead and run around the mtys, couple up, back up enough the get the engine thats with the loads on the headend of the train back out on the main when you can and leave

[rvos1979]

Got an idea, but I used to railroad, so I'll wait for more responses........

[zugmann]

I haven't done one of these in ages, and someone was asking if I had any more to share - so here's a quick and easy one I whipped up.  This is railroading 101, so it won't take a second of thought for anyone that does this for a living - so let the ones that weren't crazy enough to hire in this industry have a shot at it.

 

Here's the situation:  You're on this local that has to serve this industry.   You have 2 engines and 5 inbound loads.  You need to spot the inbound loads to the inbound tracks (any track will do), then grab the outbounds to go back from where you came (towards the right side of the screen).   Here's the kicker - that "tail track"?  Only holds one engine.   Sure, you could  split your power and go push-pull back to the yard, but you have to wait for a train to pass by on the main before you can leave the industry so you do have some time to kill.  Plus if you get both your engines on the right side of those cars, it will save you a couple moves back in the yard.   A simple basic move... but how do you do it?

I have another one to draw up if anyone is interested.