schlimmdehusmanThat's not being lazy it is almost universal policy on all railroads in N America. I did not say or imply the LE was being lazy. I said he and the RTC (and the culture of the MMA, by implication from other posts and the report) valued haste. And just because class ones leave locomotives running while sitting for hours unattended doesn't make its the right thing to do.
dehusmanThat's not being lazy it is almost universal policy on all railroads in N America.
I did not say or imply the LE was being lazy. I said he and the RTC (and the culture of the MMA, by implication from other posts and the report) valued haste. And just because class ones leave locomotives running while sitting for hours unattended doesn't make its the right thing to do.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
wanswheel Excerpt from the Montreal Gazette, June 13, 2014 Lac-Mégantic: MMA employee statements to police unsealed Harding left the train parked, unattended, and headed to Lac-Mégantic by taxi. On the way, Harding told driver André Turcotte that he had trouble with one of the locomotives earlier in the day. He also told Turcotte he really wanted to contact MMA’s American employees because they had more power and might tell him to turn the locomotive engine off, the warrant said. http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/M%C3%A9gantic+employee+statements+police+unsealed/9936116/story.html#
Excerpt from the Montreal Gazette, June 13, 2014
Lac-Mégantic: MMA employee statements to police unsealed
Harding left the train parked, unattended, and headed to Lac-Mégantic by taxi. On the way, Harding told driver André Turcotte that he had trouble with one of the locomotives earlier in the day. He also told Turcotte he really wanted to contact MMA’s American employees because they had more power and might tell him to turn the locomotive engine off, the warrant said.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/M%C3%A9gantic+employee+statements+police+unsealed/9936116/story.html#
That is very interesting. It is the same information that I had earlier mentioned reading in the news coverage last year. But then Norm told me that such information was only hearsay because it came from the taxi driver, and was not mentioned in the official report. I was told that there is no indication that the engineer disagreed with any higher authority in the company as to whether to leave the ailing engine running.
And now we see confirmation that the engineer hoped he could contact someone with higher authority who could overrule whoever ordered him to leave the engine running. Yeah that sure doesn’t sound like there was any disagreement.
Also, from the article:
“According to statements given to police, on July 5, the day before the derailment, one of the train’s five locomotives had not been working properly. It had been emitting “abnormal” smoke as it carried 72 cars of crude oil from Farnham to Nantes at speeds as low as 12 miles per hour, the warrant said.”
Note that the smoke is described as being ABNORMAL.
I am pretty sure that the people who said the engine had been emitting abnormal smoke did not really believe that it was abnormal. So it is understandable that they kept working the engine. Those old GEs smoke and spit oil all the time, so it would be considered normal.
zugmannschlimm dehusmanThat's not being lazy it is almost universal policy on all railroads in N America. I did not say or imply the LE was being lazy. I said he and the RTC (and the culture of the MMA, by implication from other posts and the report) valued haste. And just because class ones leave locomotives running while sitting for hours unattended doesn't make its the right thing to do. It is if you want to keep your air slip valid. Pesky federal laws.
schlimm dehusmanThat's not being lazy it is almost universal policy on all railroads in N America. I did not say or imply the LE was being lazy. I said he and the RTC (and the culture of the MMA, by implication from other posts and the report) valued haste. And just because class ones leave locomotives running while sitting for hours unattended doesn't make its the right thing to do.
I have no idea of what an "air slip" is, but if it is what encourages risky behaviors and is a part of the regulations [not laws], then they should be changed.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm I have no idea of what an "air slip" is, but if it is what encourages risky behaviors and is a part of the regulations [not laws], then they should be changed.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman schlimm I have no idea of what an "air slip" is, but if it is what encourages risky behaviors and is a part of the regulations [not laws], then they should be changed. Fortunately its not a risky behavior so it doesn't need to be changed.
i asked a genuine question and apparently you and/or zugmann won't answer. What does "an air slip" have to do with the tendency to leave an unattended locomotive"s engine running?
Well, Bucky,
It appears from your post that you approve of trying people in the media rather than let the facts come out in court. Would you feel the same if you were in the engineer's shoes? The media has long been guilty of publishing questionable information that makes it tough to find unbiased jurors.
Norm
schlimm dehusman schlimm I have no idea of what an "air slip" is, but if it is what encourages risky behaviors and is a part of the regulations [not laws], then they should be changed. Fortunately its not a risky behavior so it doesn't need to be changed. i asked a genuine question and apparently you and/or zugmann won't answer. What does "an air slip" have to do with the tendency to leave an unattended locomotive"s engine running?
A 'Air Slip' is the document that identifies where and the condition of the initial air test on a train and/or on a cut of cars picked up by a train. It identifies the specifics of the air test and the person that performed the air test. Normally Car Inspectors are the individuals that perform air tests and create Air Slips in terminals. Conductors perform the function on line of road. T&E crews are required to have air slip(s) for their entire train.
On the train in question, the Air Slip was most likely created when the train was build in North Dakota - air slips pertain to the cars in the train - not the locomotive consist. Locomotive consists may be changed enroute and the original Air Slip will continue with the train. When changing locomotives a Class 3 air test is performed - not a Class 1 air test, unless the train has been off air for over 4 hours in the US.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Norm48327 Well, Bucky, It appears from your post that you approve of trying people in the media rather than let the facts come out in court. Would you feel the same if you were in the engineer's shoes? The media has long been guilty of publishing questionable information that makes it tough to find unbiased jurors.
How do you figure that I approve of trying people in the media?
schlimmdehusman schlimm I have no idea of what an "air slip" is, but if it is what encourages risky behaviors and is a part of the regulations [not laws], then they should be changed. Fortunately its not a risky behavior so it doesn't need to be changed. i asked a genuine question and apparently you and/or zugmann won't answer. What does "an air slip" have to do with the tendency to leave an unattended locomotive"s engine running?
Every trainman knows that air leaks. It is hard to imagine an experienced engineer leaving his train held by air, and some handbrakes; and not seeing trouble when he learned that air was not being replenished if it were leaking down, which it likely was.
In one of these recently posted articles, I read that there is a video that shows the runaway train heading toward Lac Megantic. Now that is a video that I would like to see. Does anybody know how to find that video in the public domain? How did the video originate?
I think there was a railfan out around Farnham who took pictures, maybe video, of the train much earlier in the day. Sorry, I have no idea where I saw them so can't provide any link. There is almost certainly nothing of it when it was running away.
John
It is clearly a time-consuming procedure. I also noted this in the BNSF air brake and train handling rules f(or a locomotive left unattended):
"11. Must not be left unattended on a main track
13. If the grade exceeds 1 percent, block the wheels securely"
And this: [sorry the formatting doesn't hold up.]
104.14 Determining Number of Hand BrakesThe number of hand brakes depends on:• Grade and adhesion.• Number of loaded and empty cars.• Weather conditions (wind and temperature)Use the following to determine the minimum number of hand brakes to apply, when the number required is unknown and/or when testing of the handbrakes by releasing the air brakes is not possible.Guideline Chart When Unable to Verify Required Hand Brakes by Release of Air BrakesNumber of Applied Hand Brakes RequiredGrade (%)Tons 0 0.25 0.50 0.75 1.00 1.25 1.50 1.75 2.00 2.25 2.50 2.75 3.00+<1,000 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 6 7 7 91,000+ 2 3 3 3 5 6 8 8 10 12 13 14 152,000+ 2 3 5 5 6 8 9 11 12 14 15 17 203,000+ 3 5 5 7 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 23 304,000+ 4 5 5 8 10 13 15 18 20 23 25 28 355,000+ 5 6 7 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30 33 396,000+ 5 7 8 11 14 18 21 25 28 32 35 39 467,000+ 5 7 9 13 16 21 24 29 32 37 40 45 538,000+ 5 8 10 14 18 23 27 32 36 41 45 50 609,000+ 5 9 12 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 6510,000+ 6 10 13 17 22 28 33 39 44 50 55 60 100%11,000+ 6 11 15 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 100%12,000+ 7 14 16 20 26 33 39 46 52 59 65 72 100%13,000+ 8 15 17 22 28 35 42 49 56 63 70 100% 100%14,000+ 8 15 20 23 30 38 45 53 60 68 75 100% 100%15,000+ 9 16 22 24 32 40 48 56 64 72 80 100% 100%16,000+ 10 18 24 26 34 43 51 60 68 77 85 100% 100%17,000+ 10 20 26 28 36 45 54 63 72 81 90 100% 100%
When trains are assembled, before they can depart the entire train, (with or without locomotives) must have each and every car checked to see that the brakes apply and release, and the car is checked again for FRA defects…the integrity of the train line, (the air brake hose system) must be checked, and a leakage test must be performed, plus the brake pipe pressure at the rear of the train must be observed to be within 5 psi of what is shown on the lead locomotive gauge.
This procedure requires both sides of the train be inspected, twice.
Once with the brakes applied to insure 100% of the brakes apply, and once again to ensure 100% of the brakes release…during this inspection, the cars and looked over for other defects.
This is often accomplished in large yards or departure tracks by using ground air (an independent air supply) instead of the locomotive to charge the brake system for the test.
Federal Law states that a train that has been “off air” or not having it’s brake system charge for over 4 hours has to have a new initial terminal air test, (Class 1 Air test) before it can be moved, but, if the train has been on air continuously, it only needs a set and release on the rear car, (basic class 3 air test)..the Class 3 test can be performed with an EOT, so a one man crew can do a simple set and release from the locomotive cab.
If enroute, a train drops off cars, or alters it’s consist, a set and release must be performed.
If cars are added, and they have not been pretested and have a air slip showing such, the entire train must have an initial terminal test done again at that time.
Air slips are the documentation that an initial terminal air test has been performed on a cut of cars or a train, and that this train has been "on air“" since the test began…the slip contains the name of the qualified employee who performed the test, when and where the test was performed, and depending on the carrier, the first and last car’s reporting marks, and the train symbol the cars are intended for.
Having a running locomotive charging the brake system satisfies the FRA requirement for continuous on air requirements, so the initial terminal air test slip remains valid if the train consist has not be altered.
This is especially useful on unit trains that do not add or remove cars enroute, and the initial terminal air test and corresponding air slip will apply until the train reaches the required miles traveled (I believe it is 1000 or 1500 miles) for a new inspection the be required, even more so when said train is operated by a one man (engineer only) crew.
http://www.blet75.org/2013-05-01_abth_updated.pdf
Link to BNSF’s air brake rules, most other railroads are carbon copies.
Look at rule 100.10, it explains all the steps, and defines what constitutes an official air slip.
23 17 46 11
cx500 I think there was a railfan out around Farnham who took pictures, maybe video, of the train much earlier in the day. Sorry, I have no idea where I saw them so can't provide any link. There is almost certainly nothing of it when it was running away. John
As I interpreted it, the video showed the train during the runaway. I also recall a story about how a guy was outside by a small recreational fire on his lot. He said he witnessed the train begin to roll out of town. Perhaps others saw that too. There was mention of surprise that the engine did not seem properly lit up.
Somewhere, I also read that the oil train was observed by the highway police as it ran away down the grade, heading for Lac Megantic. For the people in Lac Megantic, this oil train must have looked like it was moving spectacularly fast as it entered town.
Thanks Ed. As you see in my previous post, I looked at the rules on the BNSF site. What;s more, it showed several other points which i noted.
Correct, those are BNSF’s rules, UP’s rules may be similar, but not identical in some details, including the part of leaving a train unattended on a main track….each railroad has its own air brake rules, all have to follow the Federal Regs and laws, the carrier is allowed to write additional rules that are more restrictive than the federal rule, but never less restrictive.
schlimm 104.14 Determining Number of Hand BrakesThe number of hand brakes depends on:• Grade and adhesion.• Number of loaded and empty cars.• Weather conditions (wind and temperature)Use the following to determine the minimum number of hand brakes to apply, when the number required is unknown and/or when testing of the handbrakes by releasing the air brakes is not possible.
104.14 Determining Number of Hand BrakesThe number of hand brakes depends on:• Grade and adhesion.• Number of loaded and empty cars.• Weather conditions (wind and temperature)Use the following to determine the minimum number of hand brakes to apply, when the number required is unknown and/or when testing of the handbrakes by releasing the air brakes is not possible.
Many class 1's have two methods of securement. The primary method, which is the crew sets 'sufficient" handbrakes and then releases the air brakes to see if the brakes hold. The secondary method uses the chart described in the chart provided. The secondary method is used when the primary method cannot be used (such as undesired emergencies and rear end set outs).
/quote]
EuclidIn one of these recently posted articles, I read that there is a video that shows the runaway train heading toward Lac Megantic. Now that is a video that I would like to see. Does anybody know how to find that video in the public domain? How did the video originate?
The TSB report on the wreck has a video animation of the runaway, derailment and pileup. I believe the video animation is intended to show the sequence of events from the point at which the train was left at Nantes, unattended with the lead unit running.
It is quite instructive and indeed quite frightening.
The TSB report also has some pieces of Youtube video (duly attributed) showing cars on the train running through a grade crossing at Lac Megantic just before derailment. It shows according to the report what appears to be brake shoes sparking from over heating as the cars travel through the crossing. This is all occurring in the middle of the night (as the runaway began after 1am EDT so the details are hard to see.
Hope this helps.
Charlie
Chilliwack. BC
Check this video out on unattended trains..... I have heard all the trespassing BS ..so I will not need a scolding...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF9Wp8uHUoM
If that’s you doing the video, you don’t need a scolding, you need to be in jail.
I agree Ed.
Hey BARFlyer if you see someones front door open do you just walk on in there house and cruz through all the rooms?
Totally UNcool. It's guys like you that give us railfans a bad name.
This article contains the reference to a video of the train during the runaway:
From the article:
“The train was left unattended again around 12:50 a.m., the warrant said.
A few minutes later, video surveillance cameras showed the train rolling along the tracks toward Lac-Mégantic, the warrant said. A local firefighter spotted the train about five kilometres from Nantes and called 911. Witnesses told police the train was travelling at an estimated speed of 100 kilometres per hour as it entered Lac-Mégantic around 1:15 a.m., the warrant said.”
In re: BAR Flyer's video: Is that a common practice? Just UP? Rather careless and unsafe.
Whatever the reason (or rationalization) given, or attempt, as usual to shoot the messenger of bad news, that is not an example of "Safety First"
schlimm In re: BAR Flyer's video: Is that a common practice? Just UP? Rather careless and unsafe. Whatever the reason (or rationalization) given, or attempt, as usual to shoot the messenger of bad news, that is not an example of "Safety First"
Why?
Jeff
If you know about engines you would know they couldn't have driven off the engines without additional equipment.
If they brought the required equipment then they would know how to start the engine. You can probably buy dozens of operating manuals on e-bay that will tell you how to start, and operate a locomotive.
Dedicated terrorists learned how to fly a modern airliner, an engine is way less sophisticated.
schlimmIn re: BAR Flyer's video: Is that a common practice? Just UP? Rather careless and unsafe. Whatever the reason (or rationalization) given, or attempt, as usual to shoot the messenger of bad news, that is not an example of "Safety First"
BARFlyer Check this video out on unattended trains..... I have heard all the trespassing BS ..so I will not need a scolding... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF9Wp8uHUoM
Johnny
zugmannschlimm In re: BAR Flyer's video: Is that a common practice? Just UP? Rather careless and unsafe. Whatever the reason (or rationalization) given, or attempt, as usual to shoot the messenger of bad news, that is not an example of "Safety First" Common for "railfans"? To criminally trespass and tamper with sitting trains? Most are smarter than that. We've already discussed brake tests and keeping cars on air.
schlimm Leaving aside the criminal trespass, the issue is leaving locomotives unattended, unlocked and running, And they are NOT coupled to any cars, so the issue of the time-consuming class 1 test should not apply, since they will have to do that when they couple to cars. So my question stands.
Leaving aside the criminal trespass, the issue is leaving locomotives unattended, unlocked and running, And they are NOT coupled to any cars, so the issue of the time-consuming class 1 test should not apply, since they will have to do that when they couple to cars. So my question stands.
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