Kyle I feel that you should let everyone try to resolve their problems. I believe that if someone feels a post violates the forum policies, another member should asked that there post be clean up, if that doesn't happen then the post should be reported to moderators who will fix the problem.
I feel that you should let everyone try to resolve their problems. I believe that if someone feels a post violates the forum policies, another member should asked that there post be clean up, if that doesn't happen then the post should be reported to moderators who will fix the problem.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Steve Sweeney Overmod: Here are the Terms of Use for Forums from the Kalmbach page. What changes do you recommend? http://www.kalmbach.com/termsofuse Forum TermsViolating any of the Terms below may result in your forum account being locked. In the event that your forum account is locked, we may, but are not obligated to, remove forum posts you have added to our site. Please keep discussions on topic. No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Accept that others might not have your same point of view. Don't sink to personal attacks. No swearing or foul language, and don't use symbols to mask the words. The meaning is still conveyed and we don't want it in our forum. Please keep in mind that we have readers of all ages. Your forum screen name and signature should not be used as a place to express your personal beliefs (religion, politics, martial status, sexual orientation, etc.). Remember, our forums are hosted to bring people with a common interest together in one place. Don't let your personal viewpoints on unrelated topics interfere with the common reason we're all here. No advertising and no use of company names as screen names. Our forums should not be used as an advertising medium for companies who want to promote their business or products, or by individuals who want to promote their items for sale or auction. Our users are the drivers behind this policy. They don't want the useful information in our forums watered down with posts that are nothing more than advertisements No political discussions or signature messages. No religious discussions or signature messages. No inappropriate images or videos. If you choose to post photos or links to videos, please keep them on topic to the forum thread. Don't use our forum as a means of promoting your forum (or online group, sweepstakes, prize drawings, contests, etc.). Within your forum profile, you're allowed to share your own website and blog URL. Please, leave it at that. Please respect copyright material. If you want to share copyright material with our users, please link to it. Don't take a story from another website and post it in our forum. Likewise, don't take a photo that you don't own the rights to and use it in our forum."
Overmod:
Here are the Terms of Use for Forums from the Kalmbach page. What changes do you recommend?
http://www.kalmbach.com/termsofuse
Forum TermsViolating any of the Terms below may result in your forum account being locked. In the event that your forum account is locked, we may, but are not obligated to, remove forum posts you have added to our site.
NKP guy Why are people, especially Americans, afraid of freedom? People have the right to make fools out of themselves in public. Or to be thought wise, or witty, or boring. Why censor at all? Why not let freedom ring and contributors say anything, serious or foolish, they want to say? What's the worst that could come from that? Hurt feelings? How would that detract from Kalmbach's bottom line? I think the room, if uncensored, would eventually achieve a culture where the flamers would be discounted and the sages recognized. As Harry Truman, a great American, said of politics (a much rougher thing than posting on a forum or reading comments), "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." I think a number of contributors here simply need to develop a thicker hide.
Why are people, especially Americans, afraid of freedom? People have the right to make fools out of themselves in public. Or to be thought wise, or witty, or boring.
Why censor at all? Why not let freedom ring and contributors say anything, serious or foolish, they want to say? What's the worst that could come from that? Hurt feelings? How would that detract from Kalmbach's bottom line?
I think the room, if uncensored, would eventually achieve a culture where the flamers would be discounted and the sages recognized.
As Harry Truman, a great American, said of politics (a much rougher thing than posting on a forum or reading comments), "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."
I think a number of contributors here simply need to develop a thicker hide.
I have read this argument many times. I liken it to going into a restaurant with my wife and kids, but having to leave because of loud and obnoxious behaviour that the proprietor says is from his best customers. I don't think Kalmbach et al. would like to run that kind of diner.
Believe me when I say that we first moderators, Norris (Murphy Siding), Don Zimmerman (DonZ ?), and the three I mentioned earlier, sat on our hands...many times. We tried to let the contentious discussions sort themselves out. Soon, and often, they descended into the kind of stuff many regulars wouldn't abide, and signified by complaining to us using the report button. Since we were charged with responding to these complaints by investigating and trying to sort them out without resorting to bans or deletions, we would do that. Eventually, deletions and bans were the only recourse we, and by extension our complainants, had.
Some won't be told. They'll argue because they enjoy it. They'll continue when cautioned and threatened with 'eviction'. It really was a simple as an election to ban them when nothing else would work, or when I couldn't stay awake any longer, usually near 0200 hours in the case of the troll.
I never did consider turning to my 11 year old daughter and suggesting she get a thicker skin. This forum is for users of all ages. While it may not always be a long lineup of yay-sayers, it needn't be one where the hosts post rules they are not prepared to both defend and to enforce. It would be a very poor example for all of us.
-Crandell
MurrayI don't recognize a fair number of the previous posters here...unless they represent the "silent majority" of non posting "general discussion" readers.
Yup, that is me. I hang out primarily at the locomotive forum, because I know a lot about that subject. I read what happens here, but don't post often, due to my lack of knowledge on most of the topics. I see no reason to post when I have nothing to contribute.
And yet, I'm glad the general discussion forum exists, because I have learned a lot from it. It is extremely nice to post a question and receive knowledgeable answers.
This forum is also a great place to meet with like-minded individuals. One of the reasons that small disagreements erupt into the big conflicts is because of these friendship groups. There seems to be two major groups that go at it on a regular basis, and have for as long as I have been a member.
There is no easy solution. I am failing to find anything better than the current strategy, although a little nudge when things begin to heat up would probably help before things get too out of hand. Because of the other responsibilities of our hosts, they are understandably unable to continually monitor these forums. I feel that a small reminder that nips a battle in the bud would be effective, but having someone with their eye constantly on the forum is far too much to ask.
If I may ask a favor of other members, I plead for civil discussion. Our hosts have put great money and time into these forums, let us honor that.
In case no one has noticed, we are now a forum of videos and arguments. A little thin on any real railroading.
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
How about a video of an argument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y Monty Python
Seriously folks, my opinion is the 1st line a moderator should take is to send a private message to the alleged offender, then if warranted suspend the account, delete the objectionable posts, AND give an explanation. Only if all else fails should they lock a thread, which also in my opinion, rewards the troublemakers and punishes those who were interested in the thread.
A broadcast like this doesn't do much good. I'm sure everyone reading it, in the absence of a private message, thinks either "Wow, my mischief succeeded in stirring things up, let's see what else I can get away with" or "the moderator's obviously talking about other people, I'm not a trouble maker, I'll just continue the way I have, imparting my incredible knowledge on everyone else to their great benefit".
And how does this reporting complaints system work? I assume you mean you got private messages from someone, you investigated and found it was justified, in which case you should take action against the complainee, or it's not justified, in which case you should tell the complainer, and if they keep complaining unjustly you should take similar action against them.
By the way, as a New Jersey resident I'd appreciate it if you could append "perfect together" to this thread's title.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Everyone:Interesting ideas and good suggestions so far. Of course, some ideas we'll have to run by the people in the head office ... but still.
And Crandell, thank you for the history. At least I was unaware of what happened eight years ago.
What else could we be doing?~Steve
Steve SweeneyDigital Editor, Hobby
Gardendance:When you, or anyone in the forums, "reports" a post to a moderator, the note gets sent to the email inbox of every moderator, at least on our side. Every report pings every inbox, regardless of which magazine title it is reported from.The report that we see includes the text complaint and a copy of the specific post that was reported. We also see the forum handles of the posters involved and the title of the thread. If we want context, we go in and read the thread.~Steve
selector NKP guy Why are people, especially Americans, afraid of freedom? People have the right to make fools out of themselves in public. Or to be thought wise, or witty, or boring. Why censor at all? Why not let freedom ring and contributors say anything, serious or foolish, they want to say? What's the worst that could come from that? Hurt feelings? How would that detract from Kalmbach's bottom line? I think the room, if uncensored, would eventually achieve a culture where the flamers would be discounted and the sages recognized. As Harry Truman, a great American, said of politics (a much rougher thing than posting on a forum or reading comments), "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." I think a number of contributors here simply need to develop a thicker hide. I have read this argument many times. I liken it to going into a restaurant with my wife and kids, but having to leave because of loud and obnoxious behaviour that the proprietor says is from his best customers. I don't think Kalmbach et al. would like to run that kind of diner.
These forums are nothing like a diner, where you are captive to the bad behavior of neighbors. And my sense is that we don't have many 11-year-old posters on here whose tender ears (and skin) need protection from the likes of me and even worse.
My sense, after years on here, is that the flamethrowers tend to marginalize themselves after a while. They are easy to recognize and their posts easy to skip over. The problem with trying to police the threads they pollute is that law enforcement is always after the fact. The original offense stands, and those to be shut down are the ones trying to answer or to get things back on the right track.
In short: Please, Kalmbach, let us have at it within the bounds of decency. The only banning offense should be bad language.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I would err on the side of letting folks express themselves rather than locking things down as soon as there's a complaint. Two reasons:
1. Locking thing down on the first complaint gives too much power to the complainer - a sort of passive-agressive power play - "I'll show you! I'll shut you up. I'll get this tread locked!"
2. We are all adults - mostly. We should be able to handle some level of affront and deal with it appropriately.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Steve Sweeney Gardendance:When you, or anyone in the forums, "reports" a post to a moderator, the note gets sent to the email inbox of every moderator, at least on our side. Every report pings every inbox, regardless of which magazine title it is reported from.The report that we see includes the text complaint and a copy of the specific post that was reported. We also see the forum handles of the posters involved and the title of the thread. If we want context, we go in and read the thread.~Steve
Note to Steve and Ange:
It has been noted in a couple of places in this Thread, that the " Forum Police" (moderators) are essentially only able to check after the Offending Posts after they have been placed in the Forum's Open Format.
It would seem to be a pretty severe course to follow, but I am curious about a move that would place " New Posters" on a probationary status ?
Since the "Troll" gets kicked to the curb after spewing their offending remarks; If that "Troll" want to keep Offending, they must create a new identity to come back and continue their tirades.
... Would it not be possible to slow down their course of such activity, by allowing a probationary period to check their activities, before giving them leave to write their Offending Posts ? The gratification for the "Troll" seems to be in the immediacy to get out and offend the greatest number of folks, quickly. To slow them down and'make them' behave for a probationary period would remove their rewards (?)
Just a note from a previous post ( When Ange announced her new duties as a Moderator here on Feb 13, 2014
See linked @ http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/227435.aspx
and I stick by my closing on that Thread:
The probationary/provisional status was implemented just a few months before Tom Stage and I left moderation, so although I don't remember exactly when, let's say the spring of 2009. AFAIK, it's still the policy; a new registrant must have at least five posts approved as a 'newbie' before he/she is given unfettered access to the forum.
At one time, not sure if it's still the same four years after I left moderation service, the mods were able to glance through the lists of the most recent registrations. We became adept at recognizing those IP's that were likely those of the usual trolls, and at one time we could lock those accounts immediately. Often the name of the person, their user-name, was a dead giveaway...like a cat and mouse game they had initiated. Eric would occasionally use his resources to pinpoint an IP we thought was suspicious, and that helped to stem the tide with that one really bad apple.
All of this taking up loads of time.
Don, it was always understood that locking and deletions were to be the avoided. With volunteer moderators, remember, who have lives, having to wade through 60 posts to cull the truly egregious posts takes time. Often the offending post is the one linked to by the person posting the RA, but it is the end-point when that action is taken. We have to read through the entire thread in an attempt to decide what is at the root of the complaint. When we locked threads, it was the best choice, and none of the moderators did it unilaterally, or at least almost never. We always talked about it in our own sub-forum where we received the complaints.
We took our service seriously, and kept our egos in check. One way to do that was to commiserate, to seek other interpretations. Naturally, there would be some bias or restriction of range in our thinking amongst those who sought to act as moderators, but we at least had a modicum of good will and the best interests of the forum and its hosts in mind.
I will also warrant that sometimes a good 'donnybrook' in an otherwise dull or unimaginative discussion brings the place alive. When they get too intense and personal, they have to be....ummm.....slowed. Almost always that process commenced with private messaging to people who were being complained about, but also to the complainants. It took up a lot of time to do well because these fora are asynchronous...they are not real time. I post today at 0835 PDT, and won't get a response, even in a PM, until hours later, or the next day. Yet, I must return to my keyboard often to try to keep the process of correction with momentum. Meanwhile, the offending comments are generated continuously. Not a great way to manage a railroad. It's the nature of these types of fora.
"it was always understood that locking and deletions were to be the avoided."
Gotta disagree with that, Crandell. A couple years ago, two posters were running to the mods and crying foul because they were being called down by those with knowledge regarding misinformation they had posted. That lead to some posts by railroaders being deleted and eventually a couple of volunteer moderators resigning because they were ordered to delete some posts. ( I was given first hand information from one of the mods who quit.) That caused lots of hard feelings all the way around.
Norm
Norm48327 "it was always understood that locking and deletions were to be the avoided." Gotta disagree with that, Crandell. A couple years ago, two posters were running to the mods and crying foul because they were being called down by those with knowledge regarding misinformation they had posted. That lead to some posts by railroaders being deleted and eventually a couple of volunteer moderators resigning because they were ordered to delete some posts. ( I was given first hand information from one of the mods who quit.) That caused lots of hard feelings all the way around.
Norm,
What are you referring to? I do not recall any event that fits the description that you have given. The last moderator I recall who resigned was Jeffery-Wimberly. If you know of something specific, please tell us enough about it so we can identify it and discuss the facts.
There's been so many moderating styles and disasters on this site through the years, how does anyone keep track?
Someone needs to write a book.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Euclid Norm48327 "it was always understood that locking and deletions were to be the avoided." Gotta disagree with that, Crandell. A couple years ago, two posters were running to the mods and crying foul because they were being called down by those with knowledge regarding misinformation they had posted. That lead to some posts by railroaders being deleted and eventually a couple of volunteer moderators resigning because they were ordered to delete some posts. ( I was given first hand information from one of the mods who quit.) That caused lots of hard feelings all the way around. Norm, What are you referring to? I do not recall any event that fits the description that you have given. The last moderator I recall who resigned was Jeffery-Wimberly. If you know of something specific, please tell us enough about it so we can identify it and discuss the facts.
Sorry, Bucky. Like a good journalist, my sources shall remain anonymous.
zugmann There's been so many moderating styles and disasters on this site through the years, how does anyone keep track? Someone needs to write a book.
Norm48327 Euclid Norm48327 "it was always understood that locking and deletions were to be the avoided." Gotta disagree with that, Crandell. A couple years ago, two posters were running to the mods and crying foul because they were being called down by those with knowledge regarding misinformation they had posted. That lead to some posts by railroaders being deleted and eventually a couple of volunteer moderators resigning because they were ordered to delete some posts. ( I was given first hand information from one of the mods who quit.) That caused lots of hard feelings all the way around. Norm, What are you referring to? I do not recall any event that fits the description that you have given. The last moderator I recall who resigned was Jeffery-Wimberly. If you know of something specific, please tell us enough about it so we can identify it and discuss the facts. Sorry, Bucky. Like a good journalist, my sources shall remain anonymous.
I am not asking for your sources. I was only asking about your story in enough detail so we could know what event you were referring to. Or was the whole thing just something that you heard about, but none of the rest of us would have experienced? It sounds like just a rumor to me. Why on earth would any moderator delete posts by the railroaders?
Euclid Norm, I am not asking for your sources. I was only asking about your story in enough detail so we could know what event you were referring to. Or was the whole thing just something that you heard about, but none of the rest of us would have experienced? It sounds like just a rumor to me. Why on earth would any moderator delete posts by the railroaders?
Euclid Norm, What are you referring to? I do not recall any event that fits the description that you have given. The last moderator I recall who resigned was Jeffery-Wimberly. If you know of something specific, please tell us enough about it so we can identify it and discuss the facts. Norm, I am not asking for your sources. I was only asking about your story in enough detail so we could know what event you were referring to. Or was the whole thing just something that you heard about, but none of the rest of us would have experienced? It sounds like just a rumor to me. Why on earth would any moderator delete posts by the railroaders?
Darned if I know. Can you tell me what reason they may have?
Norm48327 Norm, I am not asking for your sources. I was only asking about your story in enough detail so we could know what event you were referring to. Or was the whole thing just something that you heard about, but none of the rest of us would have experienced? It sounds like just a rumor to me. Why on earth would any moderator delete posts by the railroaders? Darned if I know. Can you tell me what reason they may have?
No I can’t think of any reasons. But it is your story, so I thought I would ask you what the reasons were. Moderators only remove posts when they violate the rules. And I can’t imagine any railroaders violating the rules. They live with rules.
Murphy Siding Norm48327 "it was always understood that locking and deletions were to be the avoided." Gotta disagree with that, Crandell. A couple years ago, two posters were running to the mods and crying foul because they were being called down by those with knowledge regarding misinformation they had posted. That lead to some posts by railroaders being deleted and eventually a couple of volunteer moderators resigning because they were ordered to delete some posts. ( I was given first hand information from one of the mods who quit.) That caused lots of hard feelings all the way around. Let me speak for Crandell, that's a little more fun than just paraphrasing him. I believe he was talking about how the moderator was done when he and Tom (and I) were moderators. The dust up you're referring to came after that, when moderators and moderator styles had changed.
Yes, that is so, Norris, and thanks. I left moderating in June of 2010, and have no knowledge of how the new moderators were monitored or instructed.
Great idea, maybe we could discuss the history in this thread and then someone can write a report on it in a new thread.
I don’t mind moderators, but I do mind censors. That said I find the moderation of this forum for the last several months to have been almost exactly what I wished for…mild, non-intrusive, behind the scenes and even keeled for the most part. That’s what the title implies, moderate, not edit. As for politics, it is almost impossible to discuss the industry without discussing politics; it’s just when the discussion degrades into partisan jousting the thread becomes more of a nuisance than entertainment. I have noticed a lot more user advance “moderation” than before, we seem to be doing a fairly good job of policing ourselves. Yes, there are a few posters who still pick fights, and then, when it is thrown back at them, or they begin to lose their fight, then they” run to momma” so to speak, but I have a funny feeling the moderators have caught on to that routine. As for the snide comments and subtle insults, most of us, railroader and non-railroader, are quite intelligent enough to realize when we are being insulted, subtle or not, and I can just about promise you if you take a shot at one the railroaders, you will get a good volley back in return. As far as I am concerned, if someone picks a fight, the moderators should pretty much let it run its course, unless it degenerates into actual foul language, (as we know it in today’s society) or outright hostility…once it reaches that point, I think a public reminder in the form of a posted warning to the offenders should suffice, and failing that, then consider locking the thread. I can say from experience that a lot of the railroaders here have exercised a great deal of self-restraint…had some of the shenanigans that happened here gone on in a freight yard, a few posters would be able to wipe their nose and their behind at the same time because their fannies would have been kicked up around their ears…. Sorry Crandall, but a little thicker skin is needed when you deal with railroaders, so if you allow your daughter to read the forums, you should prepare her for it…but oddly enough, I can also find where quite a few railroaders have managed to transition into excellent writers, Al Krug comes to mind, clear, concise explanations of what he and his railroad do, and quite a few of the railroaders here have made the transition from the locker room/lunch room language to very civil and courteous discussion. Most of us do leave the locker room at work for that matter. So, overall, since my opinion was asked for, I think that the way it has been for the last several months is pretty much the groove that needs to be followed.
23 17 46 11
Murphy Siding zugmann There's been so many moderating styles and disasters on this site through the years, how does anyone keep track? Someone needs to write a book. It was a dark and stormy night....
I was all alone, just the three of us. Suddenly the phone rang. "Hello" she said, knowingly...
edblysard Yes, there are a few posters who still pick fights, and then, when it is thrown back at them, or they begin to lose their fight, then they” run to momma” so to speak, but I have a funny feeling the moderators have caught on to that routine.
Yes, there are a few posters who still pick fights, and then, when it is thrown back at them, or they begin to lose their fight, then they” run to momma” so to speak, but I have a funny feeling the moderators have caught on to that routine.
Yes indeed....two posters in particular come to mind.
I'm going to tiptoe in and then back out, but what about a # put on complaints. Unlimited if the rules are broken (swearing), but maybe Mookie gets 2 per month, Ed gets 2 per month, etc - when the complaints involve a dust up between posters. You would have to really think long and hard before involving the moderators. Moderators could then be the fire alarm and not the complaint dept.
Tiptoeing back out....
I think the current “mods” have been doing something close to that, or a version of it at least…in the last few months I can remember only twice where they have had to post a “reminder”, maybe three times, and I am pretty sure they received a lot more “whines” than cheese in that time!
And by the way, I seriously doubt you ever have to tip toe around here, at least as far as the gentlemen here are concerned.
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