blue streak 1 I don't knw how to make myself clearer. This is a 45 mph section and no sidings or interlockings. an adjaecent crossing about 1 block away has always operated correctly when I have observed the crossing in question being very late. could it be a wiring problem ? my local maintainer ( very wise ) says he has heard of this occurring before but not in his territory. maybe take a video and show it to whom?
I don't knw how to make myself clearer. This is a 45 mph section and no sidings or interlockings. an adjaecent crossing about 1 block away has always operated correctly when I have observed the crossing in question being very late. could it be a wiring problem ? my local maintainer ( very wise ) says he has heard of this occurring before but not in his territory.
maybe take a video and show it to whom?
Provide Specifics - Crossing by DOT Number, Time of occurence, Engine number and direction of travel.
Provide them both to the carrier and the FRA.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
blue streak 1 big question . there is a crossing that I have reported to a certain RR that does not meet the 20 second rule noted. sometimes the gates do not get down until train is over crossing. Who do I go to so that it might get fixed? ..note does not happen every time.
big question . there is a crossing that I have reported to a certain RR that does not meet the 20 second rule noted. sometimes the gates do not get down until train is over crossing. Who do I go to so that it might get fixed? ..note does not happen every time.
Contact your state's utility commission. Or you could call up the local congresscritter - they have staffers that can maybe take care of calling.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
blue streak 1 Norm48327 blue streak 1 big question . there is a crossing that I have reported to a certain RR that does not meet the 20 second rule noted. sometimes the gates do not get down until train is over crossing. Who do I go to so that it might get fixed? ..note does not happen every time. Railroad police at their 800 number. Having the street name, mile post, and crossing number will help them get a signal maintainer to the right place. Have done all that. Unfortunately this crossing is located many hundreds of miles from my location. Only vist it intermittenly so have not been able to follow up locally. at least 3 years has been occuring. Don't have identifier with me so what do I do the next time I visit ? call FRA?
Norm48327 blue streak 1 big question . there is a crossing that I have reported to a certain RR that does not meet the 20 second rule noted. sometimes the gates do not get down until train is over crossing. Who do I go to so that it might get fixed? ..note does not happen every time. Railroad police at their 800 number. Having the street name, mile post, and crossing number will help them get a signal maintainer to the right place.
Railroad police at their 800 number. Having the street name, mile post, and crossing number will help them get a signal maintainer to the right place.
Have done all that. Unfortunately this crossing is located many hundreds of miles from my location. Only vist it intermittenly so have not been able to follow up locally. at least 3 years has been occuring. Don't have identifier with me so what do I do the next time I visit ? call FRA?
Remember crossing protection gets activated in 2 ways.
1. Train makes a continuous move from the time the protection initially operates and the train operates through and clears the crossing.
2. Train gets to and activates the crossing protection and stops before operating through and clearing the crossing. The protection operates for a period of time and then times out; the protection stops operating. When the train starts moving again, it is operating at restricted speed (1/2 range of vision prepared to stop short of obstruction or train ahead). As the train is about to enter the crossing, the protection will operate again and stay in operation until the train either clears the crossing or backs out of the 'near detection zone' and the protection will time out again.
When trains are operating where option #2 is active there are MANY calls from outside parties about the protection not operating. On my carrier Signalman are dispatched every time to check it out, when the reality is that the protection is operating as it was designed to. On every carrier there are locations where trains perform pick ups and/or set offs as well as stoping short of a road crossing because of the location of the road crossing. Were the crossing protection to be active during the period of time that the train is visible but not trying to cross the road people would be more apt to disregard the protection when it is operating.
Norm
greyhounds Having said that, a decelerating train will logically produce an activation interval longer than the set timing at the crossing. Taking your example of the suburban passenger train, if the train was traveling at 60 MPH when then circut first measured its speed the crossing would activate with the train 1/3 mile away in order to provide a 20 second warning. But the train didn't stay at 60 MPH. It was decelerating. It seems impractical to activate the crossing, then turn it off and on as the train's speed changes. So a decelerating train will logically lengthen the amount of time a crossing is activated. And those scoots decelerate at a fairly rapid rate.
Having said that, a decelerating train will logically produce an activation interval longer than the set timing at the crossing. Taking your example of the suburban passenger train, if the train was traveling at 60 MPH when then circut first measured its speed the crossing would activate with the train 1/3 mile away in order to provide a 20 second warning. But the train didn't stay at 60 MPH. It was decelerating. It seems impractical to activate the crossing, then turn it off and on as the train's speed changes.
So a decelerating train will logically lengthen the amount of time a crossing is activated. And those scoots decelerate at a fairly rapid rate.
Thanks for the information. The freight (at a different UP West crossing) was probably running at ~40-45 mph and the warning time was about 40 seconds. Perhaps the answer is longer warning times and four-quadrant gates (as they mostly once were where there were gates at all) to prevent drivers from going around? Expensive, but cheaper than separation.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm The crossing in Midland was apparently set for a 20 sec. warning before the train enters crossing. Is that a fixed time regardless of speed of approaching train or variable? Today I timed two crossings on the UP West line. In the case of a freight, it was about 40 seconds. In the case of an slowing scoot, it was 50 seconds.
The crossing in Midland was apparently set for a 20 sec. warning before the train enters crossing. Is that a fixed time regardless of speed of approaching train or variable? Today I timed two crossings on the UP West line. In the case of a freight, it was about 40 seconds. In the case of an slowing scoot, it was 50 seconds.
The "20 seconds" is the minimum activation time required by the Federal Railroad Administration.
The activation time can be set to more than 20 seconds, The downside of setting it longer is that people become impatient and will seek to beat the train or go around the gates if they have to wait too long. 20 seconds is plenty of warning time unless there is a special circumstance requiring a longer warning interval. Such as the highway vehicles traveling at a high rate of speed. (Remember, the truck in Midland entered the crossing 8 seconds after the crossing activated and would have made it across without impact had it not been blocked by the vehicle ahead of it. And that was with a tractor-trailer.)
Durand, Michigan has been a grandfathered quiet zone for many years. There are no highway dividers or four quadrant gates. Two of those crossings are on the CN mainline and two cross city streets leading to the yard. There is even one that is protected by only a cross-buck.
Speed on the mainline is 45. The natives are well aware of the fact no horns are blown. TTBOMK there has never been a crossing accident there.
zugmann BaltACD My belief is that a Quiet Zone, fosters a belief among residents that the railroad no longer operates - they don't hear it - if they can't hear it on a continuing basis - it no longer exists. Whether my belief is correct or not - human nature is that if you don't hear or see something - it doesn't exist. Those living directly along the tracks know it's existance, they see and hear it - up close and personal. Those living a little further away, don't see it and don't hear it, ergo it no longer exists. But I believe it can work in the opposite extreme. Hearing train horns all the time can render them less effective. If a train is always blowing its horn - why pay any special attention as to why? Imagine if emergency vehicles ran around all day with their sirens on (even with no emergency). How long would people keep pulling over?
BaltACD My belief is that a Quiet Zone, fosters a belief among residents that the railroad no longer operates - they don't hear it - if they can't hear it on a continuing basis - it no longer exists. Whether my belief is correct or not - human nature is that if you don't hear or see something - it doesn't exist. Those living directly along the tracks know it's existance, they see and hear it - up close and personal. Those living a little further away, don't see it and don't hear it, ergo it no longer exists.
My belief is that a Quiet Zone, fosters a belief among residents that the railroad no longer operates - they don't hear it - if they can't hear it on a continuing basis - it no longer exists.
Whether my belief is correct or not - human nature is that if you don't hear or see something - it doesn't exist. Those living directly along the tracks know it's existance, they see and hear it - up close and personal. Those living a little further away, don't see it and don't hear it, ergo it no longer exists.
But I believe it can work in the opposite extreme. Hearing train horns all the time can render them less effective. If a train is always blowing its horn - why pay any special attention as to why? Imagine if emergency vehicles ran around all day with their sirens on (even with no emergency). How long would people keep pulling over?
In my area, they aren't pulling over for the emergency vehicle sirenes, they pull over when (if) they see the lights. In metro areas, between police, Fire Depts and Ambulances - emergency vehicle sound are very frequent.
On the highway, you, if you pay attention both forward and in your mirrors, rarely here the sirens until the vehicle is in relatively close proximity - you see the lights long before you hear the audible warning.
Greyhounds,
The prodriver pdf is nicely done, the "If it won't fit, don't commit" wasn't followed in this accident.
I wonder if Operation Lifesaver has anything about special events (e.g. parades, marathons, bike races) that cross RR tracks. If they don't, then this accident shows that such a document would be useful.
- Erik
Union Pacific safety brochure for professional truck drivers:
http://www.uprr.com/customers/attachments/truck/prodriver.pdf
And available from the UP for the sun visor:
http://www.uprr.com/customers/attachments/truck/visor.pdf
Bucyrus tree68 BucyrusIf the quiet zone was irrelevant to the crash, why would the U.P. care if quiet zones compromise safety? Apples and oranges. The incident in question, however, involved a driver who, if I remember the earlier timeline correctly, entered the crossing essentially before a normal train would have begun sounding its horn, rendering this point moot. Yes, that is exactly what happened. The driver entered the crossing when the normal horn signal would have been blowing had the crossing not been in a quiet zone. Had the driver been warned by the horn during this critical point, he very well might have backed off and avoided the crash. The point is certainly not rendered moot. Quite the contrary, the point is critically relevant.
tree68 BucyrusIf the quiet zone was irrelevant to the crash, why would the U.P. care if quiet zones compromise safety? Apples and oranges. The incident in question, however, involved a driver who, if I remember the earlier timeline correctly, entered the crossing essentially before a normal train would have begun sounding its horn, rendering this point moot.
BucyrusIf the quiet zone was irrelevant to the crash, why would the U.P. care if quiet zones compromise safety?
Apples and oranges. The incident in question, however, involved a driver who, if I remember the earlier timeline correctly, entered the crossing essentially before a normal train would have begun sounding its horn, rendering this point moot.
Yes, that is exactly what happened. The driver entered the crossing when the normal horn signal would have been blowing had the crossing not been in a quiet zone. Had the driver been warned by the horn during this critical point, he very well might have backed off and avoided the crash. The point is certainly not rendered moot. Quite the contrary, the point is critically relevant.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
But did he hear the crossing bell? If he did, and he ignored that audible signal, well.....
Apples and oranges.
I'm sure that UP brought the same thoughts to the table when the crossing in question was to become a quiet zone.
The incident in question, however, involved a driver who, if I remember the earlier timeline correctly, entered the crossing essentially before a normal train would have begun sounding its horn, rendering this point moot.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Earlier, I suggested that the quiet zone may have played a part in the Texas crash. This was resisted by some who said that the driver broke the law; so end of story. I was told that the quiet zone is irrelevant to the crash.
But the Union Pacific says they believe that quiet zones compromise the safety of railroad employees, customers, and the general public. They say that the absence of the loud horn compromises safety and increases the chance of a crash by 68%.
This is my question:
If the quiet zone was irrelevant to the crash, why would the U.P. care if quiet zones compromise safety?
Here is a reference to the U.P. statement on quiet zones:
http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/investigations/track-side-neighbors-hounded-by-horns
jeffrey-wimberly Mookie Vic - and there he is again - in his POV! Makes you wonder. The crossing was very definitely occupied.
Mookie Vic - and there he is again - in his POV!
Vic - and there he is again - in his POV!
Its like the train was invisible in that video.
Have fun with your trains
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Hi Mookie, good to see your still here
Wondering what the heck happened to my post to Ed about other MIAs on the site before replying to your post...
...I don't like being censored over remembering old friends....
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Mookie Small town Nebraska: sheriff deputy sitting in a line of cars - broad daylight - waiting for a train, spotting cars at an elevator, to clear a crossing. Deputy pulled out of line, turned on red lights and ran right into the side of the train. Now, explain to me what he didn't see, hear, smell, taste, whatever it would take to keep from going thru that crossing at the same time as the train.
Small town Nebraska: sheriff deputy sitting in a line of cars - broad daylight - waiting for a train, spotting cars at an elevator, to clear a crossing.
Deputy pulled out of line, turned on red lights and ran right into the side of the train.
Now, explain to me what he didn't see, hear, smell, taste, whatever it would take to keep from going thru that crossing at the same time as the train.
Stranger things have been known to happen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enkh9A5jdUI
All these pages of discussion disolve down to a single truck driver who did not see or hear all the warning devices protecting the crossing and did not have the assured clear distance for his entire rig on the far side of the crossing.
Jeffrey,
Something not yet factored into this discussion is those of us with impaired hearing. I, too, have driven emergency vehicles back in the sixties and can attest to the volume of a good old Federal Q. I have my doubts the police had their electronic sirens operating. It would be too loud and annoying for most people.
Nowadays, the electronic sirens are difficult for me to hear, and I can be standing right next to the crossing and not be able to hear the bells.
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