This thread was the second attempt to discuss this topic civilly, without descending into personal attacks and sniping. In that goal, it too has failed. The offending posts have been removed, and this thread will be locked.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Bucyrus Sure, you can work nights and not think it is a problem when you are young, but when you get older the heath effects can catch up with you; things like short temper and memory loss. It is the same way with smoking and drinking. It’s fun when you are young.
Sure, you can work nights and not think it is a problem when you are young, but when you get older the heath effects can catch up with you; things like short temper and memory loss. It is the same way with smoking and drinking. It’s fun when you are young.
I agree. As you get older you can't do some things that were easy when you were younger. Time does takes its toll even if you look after yourself. you need more regular sleep as you get older. When I was 18 I could eat an entire cake in one sitting...bicycle 30 miles, play a little bit of football and wind up the day with a couple or five beers...and then be ready for work the following day after 3 hours of sleep. If I tried that now i would be ready for burial by about noon...and I'm in pretty good shape and not that old either.
I recall reading that a key to smooth transition between rotating shifts is to shift forward, as in days to eves, eves to mids, etc.
Shifting backwards (eves to days, etc) apparently does cause issues, especially for businesses that seem to like to rotate on a frequent basis. I think we ran six weeks. Many places run a month.
That said, I never had a problem with rotating shifts that I couldn't attribute to something I did, like staying up all day after a mid shift, then trying to sleep in the evening. As a rule I slept during the day, when the kids were in school.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Hey, we are talking about workplace safety here. There are plenty of people who would have worked without helmets, steel toed boots, and high visibility vests and saw no problem with it. But ultimately, they did not get to decide. The experts tell us what is safe and what is not.
It depends on the person..some (like you and I) can live with ever changing schedules and sleep routines. Others require 8 to 10 hours every night without fail. It is best to identify the sleep requirement at the time of hire. A railroad conductor or engineer would probably have to adjust to ever changing shift schedules. It wouldn't do the railroad any good to hire someone who needs regular sleep regardless of how qualified they may otherwise be.
I served 22 years in the military working a variety of rotating shifts, in addition to contingencies exercises and deployments. I'm sure many of the posters here have served like I did, and endured ever changing schedules.
Its not hard at all to adapt to changing schedules.
I fail to see why this thread is drumming up such drama.
While working nights may not be "normal", if you work it regularly you find ways to adapt-- you alter your routine to fit. Even if it's not the best scenario, you can live with it.
While not in the transportation field, I used to work at varying times. What tore me up the worst was the several years that I had to start at 1AM on Mondays and regular days the rest of the week. It took all week to recover. I can appreciate, too, that not knowing when you will be called can make it much worse.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Your body schedule can change over time. I've been a day person for years now but in my college days I found that I could handle working second shift (3PM to 11PM) better than days. My brother worked a swing shift on his summer jobs and he was always dragging.
Yeah, we work at night, we work weekends, we are outside, and we work around big machinery.
Amazing, huh?
Until the world is 9-5, M-F, there will be LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of people that work nights. If you can't handle it - you go find a daylight job. But there are plenty of people that can handle nights just fine. I'd rather work nights than get up early in the morning. That crap is for the birds...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
In view of the body of information on the bad health effects of working nights, I cannot see how any responsible labor organization would permit its members to work nights. I do not see how screening out people with sleep disorders solves the problem. Nightshift work alone, poses health dangers just as smoking does. It makes no difference whether you are susceptible to sleep disorders or not. The disruption of the body clock causes health problems for everybody who works nights. Here are some of the bad health effects of working nights:
Lack of concentration
Confusion
Low mood
Short temper
Headaches
Low immune system
Memory loss
Hallucinations
Slow healing of wounds
Stunted growth
Low sex drive
Diminished appetite
Bad skin/hair/nails
Slow reactions
Muscle/weight loss
I used to work nights when I was younger. I thought you simply slept during the day instead of during the night, and everything was okay. But that is clearly not the case. Had I known then what I know now, I would never have worked nights. A nightshift worker can somewhat compensate for the bad health effects by exercise, careful diet, tight control of caffeine, avoiding exposure to daylight during sleep and between ending work and starting of sleep. But the disruption of the body clock will still be there, and it will inevitably be a health risk. I do not see any way to compensate for that disruption. See this:
http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15290/1/Night-Shift-Health-Effects.html
Some studies have found night work to be a probable carcinogen.
edblysard Dictator Cicadas? How do they salute? Oh, the tyranny of it all!... Next it will be goose stepping pill bugs!
Dictator Cicadas?
How do they salute?
Oh, the tyranny of it all!...
Next it will be goose stepping pill bugs!
Yes. The infamous revolutionary rolly-polly's.
23 17 46 11
Murray BroadwayLion: The circadian rhythm dictates that the human animal wants to be awake in the day time and asleep at night time. No getting around that one. Riding on a train, particularly the locomotive is very soothing. I could go to sleep right there. Yawn... I think I'll go and take a nap. (a CAT nap) ROAR What's all this talk about endangered cicadas????
BroadwayLion: The circadian rhythm dictates that the human animal wants to be awake in the day time and asleep at night time. No getting around that one. Riding on a train, particularly the locomotive is very soothing. I could go to sleep right there. Yawn... I think I'll go and take a nap. (a CAT nap) ROAR
The circadian rhythm dictates that the human animal wants to be awake in the day time and asleep at night time. No getting around that one. Riding on a train, particularly the locomotive is very soothing. I could go to sleep right there.
Yawn...
I think I'll go and take a nap.
(a CAT nap)
ROAR
What's all this talk about endangered cicadas????
17 years
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Murray What's all this talk about endangered cicadas????
They are only endangered on years starting with 0
BroadwayLion The circadian rhythm dictates that the human animal wants to be awake in the day time and asleep at night time. No getting around that one. Riding on a train, particularly the locomotive is very soothing. I could go to sleep right there. Yawn... I think I'll go and take a nap. (a CAT nap) ROAR
some human animals want to slink off and sleep in the day as well.. call it constitutional inertia aka lazy.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
In reading about this problem, I have concluded that there is a disconnect between how the problem is being established as a medical disorder and what the problem actually amounts to. I conclude that the problem is 99% vehicle-induced, including motor vehicles and locomotives.
I believe that the conclusion that all safety-sensitive work needs to be protected from sleep disorder induced fatigue is an overreach. And, while fatigue is real, I am not convinced that the nightshift or rotating shifts is the cause. A more likely cause is simply the lack of sleep during the day when working at night. There are a lot of things a person needs to get done, and many of them can only be done during the day. This, plus the disturbance of daytime activity by others, serves to disrupt daytime sleep.
Nevertheless, problems are opportunities for the problem solving industry. And they have a self-interest in reaching to make a problem bigger than it actually is. Problem solvers often make problems. And there is a lot of money to be made solving the nightshift sleep disorder problem for railroad workers in safety sensitive areas.
edblysard Uh oh, I bet HAL is seriously po'ed now....
Uh oh, I bet HAL is seriously po'ed now....
HAL be awful PO'ed about now....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Georgia Railroader tree68: zardoz: tree68: Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world. Even easier would be to just replace the people with droids. SHHHHHHH! Don't give 'em any ideas! I'm sure it's something they've already thought of.
tree68: zardoz: tree68: Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world. Even easier would be to just replace the people with droids. SHHHHHHH! Don't give 'em any ideas!
zardoz: tree68: Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world. Even easier would be to just replace the people with droids.
tree68: Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world.
Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world.
SHHHHHHH! Don't give 'em any ideas!
I'm sure it's something they've already thought of.
From upcoming movie Prometheus we have David6...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Es_JimQFXw
tree68 zardoz: tree68: Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world. Even easier would be to just replace the people with droids. SHHHHHHH! Don't give 'em any ideas!
zardoz tree68: Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world. Even easier would be to just replace the people with droids.
tree68 Perhaps an easier answer would be to ensure that crews work on a 24 hour cycle, like most of the rest of the world.
Here is a link to locomotive alerters that describes the problem of alerters warning when no fatigue issue is present. It describes how excessive unnecessary warnings are lead to reset routine, and the routine becomes so automatic that engineers can sleep while performing it. It talks about a new generation of smarter alerters being developed:
http://mvl.mit.edu/MVLpubs/OmanLiu_AlerterTechnologyAssessment_2007.pdf
This report has a lot of interesting information on alerters and the issues with them. Particularly interesting is the description of the Macdona, TX collision starting on page 29.
Here is a link to several high tech objectives for railroads:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/Pages/887.shtml
Note the title and first sentence:
“A Vision For The Future: Intelligent Railroad Systems. A theme cutting across virtually all the RD&D program elements is the use of sensors, computers, and digital communications to collect, process, and disseminate information to improve safety, security, and operational effectiveness of railroads.”
Note the paragraph in the 7th section of the page about real-time monitoring and feedback of individual alertness levels. When I read this whole page, I find the implications staggering. It is as if the sky is the limit for new control systems for everything that can be imagined.
Quoted from the link:
"Crew alertness monitoring systems promote on-duty alertness and vigilance of train crews through the use of non-invasive technology applications. Mental lapses and other human errors that result in unsafe safe job performance are often due to reduced alertness or vigilance. Real time monitoring and feedback of individual alertness levels will allow crew members to modify their behavior and reduce their risk of unsafe performance. Risk-appropriate countermeasures, such as napping, social interaction, and postural changes, will be suggested by the system, and in the case of high risk (e.g., the crewmember falls asleep), the system can both notify the control center over the digital data link communications network and stop the train. Real time monitoring and feedback of population alertness levels will allow managers to dynamically adjust work schedules and help ensure the most well-rested individuals, or teams, are available for high-risk assignments. Models of fatigue and alertness in the system will accurately predict future risk of non-alertness in individuals and groups of individuals so that countermeasures can be applied to maintain optimal performance either before or throughout a work shift."
From your post:
"So experts are working on a new generation of smarter alerters. However, the NTSB and FRA are not just concerned about the alertness of engineers running locomotives. They also want to monitor wakefulness of conductors, switchmen, signal workers, and anybody who is working in safety sensitive roles. Monitoring alertness of these non-engineer employees requires an alerter that is not only smart, but also one that is not a part of a locomotive. "
I'm sure I'm not the only one cornfused.
No that is not the answer. Maybe you are reading more into what I predicted about the silver bullet than what I actually did. All I predicted is that the concept would in introduced as an objective, and I believe it has. But it does require connecting dots. I can give you some sources for the dots, but you might not believe they connect.
So, the answer is, you don't have a source?
I'm having trouble differentiating what is actual FRA/NTSB/DOT/ABC actions, and what is happening in Bucyrus-land.
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