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Crewless Railroading on the Horizon

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Crewless Railroading on the Horizon
Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, February 20, 2012 12:40 PM

Railway Gazette (Intl)  of this date carries the following headline:

"Rio Tinto to introduce driverless trains

by 2014" 

20 February 2012

FTA:"...AUSTRALIA: Rio Tinto confirmed on February 20 that driverless trains would begin running on its Hamersley and Robe River iron ore network in Western Australia’s Pilbara region during 2014..."

FTA"...Rio Tinto is currently investing A$14bn over five years to expand its iron ore production from 225 million tonnes per annum to 353 mtpa by 2015..."

FTA: "....At present the 1 500 km rail network operates around 300 trains a week, using a fleet of 148 locomotives and 9 400 wagons to move 630 000 tonnes of ore a day. Each train is typically 2·4 km long, with a loaded weight of 30 000 tonnes and a top speed of 75 km/h.

Full Story @ the following link:

 http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/rio-tinto-to-introduce-driverless-trains-by-2014.html

Another link after the story linked has a reference to the purchase and installation of ECP Braking Systems to be installed by 2014:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/rio-tinto-places-ecp-braking-order.html

Admittedly, The Rio Tinto systems are closed and would not involve equipment and outside personnel. The main question that seems to be 'How would the area of the Cab and track in front of the Trains be monitored?  Would they just put someone on board to watch and report in event of an accident?

 

 

 


 

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, February 20, 2012 1:04 PM

At the bottom of the article  they also mention something about 150 driverless trucks.. nothing in there about replacing clueless executives however.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, February 20, 2012 1:35 PM

Wasn't that already done here in the states? 

I don't see it happening elsewhere except in relatively controlled circumstances.

Technology to operate autonomous vehicles had been around for years. 

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, February 20, 2012 1:56 PM

Yes, Black Mesa and Lake Powell in Arizona was crewless as far back as the 70s I believe..not sure if that is still the case however.  And google had a driverless car a year or so back that apparently drove itself across Nevada.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, February 20, 2012 2:01 PM

When it can go from Philadelphia to Boston through NYC at rush hour they may have something.

Ulrich

  And google had a driverless car a year or so back that apparently drove itself across Nevada.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, February 20, 2012 2:25 PM

Ulrich

Yes, Black Mesa and Lake Powell in Arizona was crewless as far back as the 70s I believe..not sure if that is still the case however.  And google had a driverless car a year or so back that apparently drove itself across Nevada.

It was designed to be crewless, with an "observer" riding along if something failed.  I think there was a Trains article on the BM&LP that said they never were able to get it to work so were using two person crews.

Jeff

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Posted by beaulieu on Monday, February 20, 2012 2:33 PM

jeffhergert

 

 Ulrich:

 

Yes, Black Mesa and Lake Powell in Arizona was crewless as far back as the 70s I believe..not sure if that is still the case however.  And google had a driverless car a year or so back that apparently drove itself across Nevada.

 

 

It was designed to be crewless, with an "observer" riding along if something failed.  I think there was a Trains article on the BM&LP that said they never were able to get it to work so were using two person crews.

Jeff

The Muskingum Electric Railroad also trialed crewless operations back in the late '60s.

 

Railroads in the Pilbara region of Australia have to pay a premium for Traincrew and Miners due to the extreme remoteness and harsh conditions. The locomotives have Microwaves and CD players, etc. Crews work on a rotational basis, with no family and they live in relatively austere quarters.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, February 20, 2012 2:39 PM

BM&LP was supposed to be 'crewless', but that was never achieved.  Eventually they gave up and are now run by a 1 or 2-man crew.  See http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/bmlpsteps.html and http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,733437 

The Muskingum Electric RR was a 20-mile long automated mine-to-power-plant railroad - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskingum_Electric_Railroad 

One of the Iron Ore Company of Canada / Quebec, North Shore & Labrador mine-to-crusher at Carol Lake is also an "Automated Train Operation" or "ATO" - see: http://www.trainweb.org/trainmaster/page11.html and http://sinfin.net/railways/world/canada/lab-qns.html

The PATCO "Speedline"/ High Speed Line (subway-surface heavy rail type) from Phila., PA to Lindenwold, NJ is supposedly automated, but still has an attendant on-board in the cab 'just in case' and is occasionally used such as in bad weather - see: http://www.ridepatco.org/about/history.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATCO_Speedline#Operation 

Note that they're all electrified . . . Whistling 

I'll skip the various airport and urban 'people-mover' trams and monorails, etc.

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by overall on Monday, February 20, 2012 2:42 PM

The state of Navada has decided to allow robot automobiles on to their highways for test purposes. They have to carry a special license plate identifying them.  We already have drone aircraft piloted remotely. We could have drone trains also. While not crewless, they would have the advantage of having remote crews that would report to the same place every day on a predictable time schedule. No crew fatigue.

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, February 20, 2012 3:04 PM

I guess I can see a closed railroad, a closed loop system perhaps, that would't need an onboard tender or human.  Built in cameras and sattellite GPS should cover all situations so that everything could be automatic with remote override possbile from anywhere in the world.  There's a neat 21st Century target business...one that will operate all the trains on any and all systems from wherever their headquarters are: jet rocket helicopter service on standby in case of trouble; back up computer system at four universal locations; back up sattellites at four quadrants; can handle any number of trains on single or multi track railroads, 24/7; and live operators to take your calls.  

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, February 20, 2012 3:05 PM

overall

The state of Navada has decided to allow robot automobiles on to their highways for test purposes. They have to carry a special license plate identifying them.  We already have drone aircraft piloted remotely. We could have drone trains also. While not crewless, they would have the advantage of having remote crews that would report to the same place every day on a predictable time schedule. No crew fatigue.

George

 

Maybe that can be done from a home office as well. Time to log in as I'm running a double stack over Cajon in a minutes...but before I do I'll put out the trash and feed the dog.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 20, 2012 3:34 PM

How about the DFW airport.  I don't recall seeing drivers/engineers on the terminal to terminal trains that loop around the airport.

Nor did I see any drivers on the shuttle trains at the Pittsburgh or Atlanta airports which have satellite terminals.

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Posted by Georgia Railroader on Monday, February 20, 2012 3:48 PM

I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 20, 2012 4:41 PM

The FRA is developing systems to couple and uncouple freight cars by remote control, so I don't believe anything is out of the question.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/research/rr0829.pdf

I think fully automated trains are a long way off, but taking the engineer out of the locomotive and putting him in an office is coming soon.

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Posted by zardoz on Monday, February 20, 2012 5:02 PM

Ulrich

Maybe that can be done from a home office as well. Time to log in as I'm running a double stack over Cajon in a minutes...but before I do I'll put out the trash and feed the dog.

Kinda like how the military controls its drone airplanes?

Oh, wait...didn't a super-high-tech stealth drone crash in Iran recently, allowing the enemy access to the technology? And weren't there rumors that Iran had actually caused the crash by hacking the controls? (8th paragraph: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/drone-crash-in-iran-reveals-secret-us-surveillance-bid.html )

How interesting things will become when hackers learn how to hack the train controls. The TSA will have lots more to worry about than a grandpa standing trackside, or a grandma trying to 'smuggle' her shampoo on board an aircraft, resulting in a strip-search.

But at least the news will become more interesting; too bad for those that will be paying the price....

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Posted by greyhounds on Monday, February 20, 2012 5:07 PM

Georgia Railroader

I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. 

So were the Luddites.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luddite

The pace of change is only going to increase.

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, February 20, 2012 5:14 PM

Georgia Railroader

I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. 

But it affects us all..no one is immune. All we can do is embrace change and try to keep up. Although I say that, I find it as hard as anyone to do it...I grew up in the 70s  when  high technology was a black and white TV and a telephone in the house.  Now I've got  customers who want to know if I'm hooked up to "the cloud" (back in the day that could have been taken differently as well..ha ha) !.. I'm just getting around to learning what all that is...and I always seem to be behind the eight ball on technology. Personally I prefer simple.. not everything needs a GPS or a camera.. And kitchen appliances don't all need to whistle or play melodies, but that's just my "outdated man from the 70s" opinion. Anyone remember appliances that you turned on by pressing an ON button? In retrospect that's so intuitive...now it seems you've got airplane controls for everything and you've pretty much got to do a raindance to get anything to work properly anymore.  

 

 

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, February 20, 2012 5:37 PM

zardoz

 Ulrich:

Maybe that can be done from a home office as well. Time to log in as I'm running a double stack over Cajon in a minutes...but before I do I'll put out the trash and feed the dog.

 

Kinda like how the military controls its drone airplanes?

Oh, wait...didn't a super-high-tech stealth drone crash in Iran recently, allowing the enemy access to the technology? And weren't there rumors that Iran had actually caused the crash by hacking the controls? (8th paragraph: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/drone-crash-in-iran-reveals-secret-us-surveillance-bid.html )

How interesting things will become when hackers learn how to hack the train controls. The TSA will have lots more to worry about than a grandpa standing trackside, or a grandma trying to 'smuggle' her shampoo on board an aircraft, resulting in a strip-search.

But at least the news will become more interesting; too bad for those that will be paying the price....

I'm not a fan either...but I can see it coming. Sure, technology can go awry...but terrible things can happen when people are at the controls as well...anyone remember the CN accident near Hinton, AB in the 1980s? Two fully crewed trains ran head on  into each other... no attempt to apply the brakes by either crew was made although passengers in the dome car of the VIA train who survived the collision could see it coming well in advance, one man reportly shouting  OMG he's on our track!!!

 

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, February 20, 2012 6:50 PM

I am always looking for progress, safety, something new...but this conversation is making me think we are dangerously eroding the integrity and self preservatoin of mankind dismissing him off into a role of just observing life going by instead being a part of it.  I know this comment has no place here on a railfan page, but the comment is begged by the content.

 

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, February 20, 2012 7:17 PM

The people movers at some airports run automatically, but their ROW is pretty well protected in all respects from possible interlopers.

"Over the road" railroading is a good distance from running robotically - there are too many factors involved, as has already been mentioned.

Go back to the Trains article about the Quebec ore railroads for an idea of one issue - support for problems like broken couplers, etc. 

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any train crews to get replaced by a guy with a joystick in an office in {name a location}.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, February 20, 2012 7:32 PM

Until the rights of way are completely separated and inaccessible to all but deliberate trespassing, or the railroads are completely indemnified against any interaction between them and the public, you won't see completely crewless trains.  I don't look for remote controlled thru trains.  If they feel comfortable with no one on board, it will be because the computer is in total control between terminals where work is to be done.     

We are getting closer to the point where the computer will run the train and an "observer" will be onboard in case something fails or to do intermediate work.  We are getting the LEADER system (something we've discussed on the forums before) and while it dosen't actually run the train (yet) it does tell the engineer how to run the train.  (Following the Leader, some have experienced train separations but haven't been held accountable for it.  They were doing what the computer said.)  The current system also doesn't recognize signal indications or authority limits, it thinks the blocks are always clear. (For those situations you have to ignore the computer's prompts.  Following the computer isn't an excuse for running a stop signal.)  Eventually, as technology improves and any bugs are worked through, the computer will be able to run the train directly.  It will be tied into PTC and operate the train accordingly.  I think you'll still see engineers, and even conductors, for a while for a few reasons.  At some point, there will be pressure to remove one of the crew members.  Long before that I think there will be pressure to reduce wages and benefits as the skills needed are perceived to be reduced.            

Railroad executives and stock holders may not be the only ones looking forward to crewless trains.  Back in the late 1990s I read a column in a now defunct railfan magazine written by someone who worked for a railroad customer.  He was looking forward to crewless trains because he thought the railroad would pass along the savings from having no crew members to his company in reduced freight rates.  I myself have doubts that any savings would trickle down to the customers in any great amounts. 

Jeff

 

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, February 20, 2012 7:36 PM

We went from discovering the very fundamentals of aviation on the sand dunes of North Carolina to landing a man on  the moon in 65 years... I don't think we'll have to wait half that long for artifical intelligence to arrive... at which point some have suggested that we and our technology will merge to become one and the same.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, February 20, 2012 8:17 PM

Georgia Railroader

I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. 

Well said sir! And as someone who works with technology let me remind all that circuit boards fail, wiring fails, control panels fail, keyboards fail, anything that's man-made can fail.  Trust me, it can fail when you least expect it and it's never conveinient.  If they want some 12,000 ton juggernaut out there on the rails with no-one on board, well, don't come crying if it goes "BANG!"

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Posted by Georgia Railroader on Monday, February 20, 2012 11:56 PM

Ulrich

 

 Georgia Railroader:

 

I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. 

 

 

But it affects us all..no one is immune. All we can do is embrace change and try to keep up. Although I say that, I find it as hard as anyone to do it...I grew up in the 70s  when  high technology was a black and white TV and a telephone in the house.  Now I've got  customers who want to know if I'm hooked up to "the cloud" (back in the day that could have been taken differently as well..ha ha) !.. I'm just getting around to learning what all that is...and I always seem to be behind the eight ball on technology. Personally I prefer simple.. not everything needs a GPS or a camera.. And kitchen appliances don't all need to whistle or play melodies, but that's just my "outdated man from the 70s" opinion. Anyone remember appliances that you turned on by pressing an ON button? In retrospect that's so intuitive...now it seems you've got airplane controls for everything and you've pretty much got to do a raindance to get anything to work properly anymore.  

 

 

 

Yea but it's hard for me to embrace the idea of being replaced by a *** machine, just as so many people have been in the past. Robots have no place out here running trains up and down the mainline. Robots have no emotion, no feeling, no soul.....me and my brothers do and we'll fight this thing tooth and nail when and if it ever comes up. This isn't just my job, it's my life and I'll be damned if I go down without a fight. Rant over...

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Posted by Georgia Railroader on Monday, February 20, 2012 11:57 PM

greyhounds

 

 Georgia Railroader:

 

I'm dead against anything that takes our jobs away. This technology is getting ridiculous. 

 

 

So were the Luddites.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luddite

The pace of change is only going to increase.

 

Sad but true.

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Posted by Georgia Railroader on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:04 AM

henry6

I am always looking for progress, safety, something new...but this conversation is making me think we are dangerously eroding the integrity and self preservatoin of mankind dismissing him off into a role of just observing life going by instead being a part of it.  I know this comment has no place here on a railfan page, but the comment is begged by the content.

 

Great post, you are absolutely right.

Human error will exist as long as we do, but I still think the idea of machines running trains is ludicrous. Machines and computers fail all the time.... 

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:22 AM

By the time they get this automation thing figured out, they won't need it.  With just about everything replaced by machines, no one will have any money to buy stuff (except the few programmers that made this all possible justifying their jobs).

 

Besides, I can't trust machines.  We all know they will come to life to wage a never ending war on humanity.   Our only hope will be to use crude, non electronic weaponry against them.  Swords soaked in non-synthetic oil, driven straight into the core of their CPUs.  Many will be sacrificed in the war, but we must be victorious.  The future of mankind depends on it.

 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:46 AM

And just because something CAN be done doesn't necessarily mean that it will be or even should be. There are economic considerations as well.. Two people on one of these incredibly long double stack trains is already very efficient...most any other business could only dream of getting that level of productivity out of two people.  

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:09 AM

Paul_D_North_Jr

BM&LP was supposed to be 'crewless', but that was never achieved.  Eventually they gave up and are now run by a 1 or 2-man crew.  See http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/bmlpsteps.html and http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,733437 

The Muskingum Electric RR was a 20-mile long automated mine-to-power-plant railroad - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskingum_Electric_Railroad 

One of the Iron Ore Company of Canada / Quebec, North Shore & Labrador mine-to-crusher at Carol Lake is also an "Automated Train Operation" or "ATO" - see: http://www.trainweb.org/trainmaster/page11.html and http://sinfin.net/railways/world/canada/lab-qns.html

The PATCO "Speedline"/ High Speed Line (subway-surface heavy rail type) from Phila., PA to Lindenwold, NJ is supposedly automated, but still has an attendant on-board in the cab 'just in case' and is occasionally used such as in bad weather - see: http://www.ridepatco.org/about/history.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATCO_Speedline#Operation 

Note that they're all electrified . . . Whistling 

I'll skip the various airport and urban 'people-mover' trams and monorails, etc.

- Paul North. 

The Skytrain lines in Vancouver BC are totally automated - both the linear induction propulsion trains and the traditional "traction" propulsion.  No operator.  No attendant.  Nobody.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:44 AM

zugmann
  [snipped]  Besides, I can't trust machines.  We all know they will come to life to wage a never ending war on humanity.   Our only hope will be to use crude, non electronic weaponry against them.  Swords soaked in non-synthetic oil, driven straight into the core of their CPUs.  Many will be sacrificed in the war, but we must be victorious.  The future of mankind depends on it. 

  Mischief  Oh, I don't know about all that - pulling the plug usually works just fine for me . . . Smile, Wink & Grin - PDN. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)

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