Out of all the replies here I only saw one that mentioned the choice every railroader must make. You either choose money or lifestyle. If money is most important to you, then choose to work the road. If lifestyle is most important, then choose to work the yard. I choose to work the yard. I have a fixed schedule and 2 days off a week. It took 14 years but I finally work Monday to Friday, but I earn less pay than a road engineer.
I tell all new hires. You pay your dues in the first five years. No life. No choice. After five years you will begin to get some choice and with that a better quality of life.
With any type of work, if you put in an honest day's work, you will be treated with respect and the trainmasters won't bother you. As with managers in any company, they know who is dependable and who is not, and the trainmasters have a large rule book they can use to make your life miserable.
It's a lifestyle and most people wash out. My class had eight green vests and now we are two. Our current class of green vests started at twenty and now they are at nine. This is not a career for everybody.
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The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann My first couple of years were more fun in this industry and I could see career possibilities. Now it's just a plain old boring, unfulfilling job.
My first couple of years were more fun in this industry and I could see career possibilities. Now it's just a plain old boring, unfulfilling job.
Zug, is it the job? Or the company you work for? Not that the grass may be any greener on the other side of the fence. Plenty of crab grass everywhere you go.
I love railroading, but don't always love the railroad.
Hang in there brother.
Jeff
"Is it the people, or the organization* ?" (as my high school history teacher used to ask us - *though he used the word "institution" instead, but that might have another implication here . . .
- Paul North.
Bid a Yardmaster or Train Dispatcher's job when they are advertised....whole different perspective than T&E - of course if the NS makes those positions available to T&E. CSX does.
zugmann Unfortunately not every terminal treats the honest guys with respect. Some seem to bully them more because they can get away with it. My first couple of years were more fun in this industry and I could see career possibilities. Now it's just a plain old boring, unfulfilling job.
Unfortunately not every terminal treats the honest guys with respect. Some seem to bully them more because they can get away with it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Every terminal will be different as far as training and work schedules. I spent 6 weeks in Atlanta at REDI, then almost 6 months training before marking up. My terminal has a lot of locals, and 3 yard jobs. With mainframe access at home, and by getting to know your territory, you can get a good feel for when you will get called to work. Sometimes you get surprised, but generally, I know if I am going to turn on my rest, or if it going to be a while. I can see who is ahead of me, who has taken a day off etc, etc. Its not as bad as it sounds. The extra boards here are guaranteed, a new hire will make over $900.00 a week minimum, assuming no days off board. I have been here a year, and love it. Sure, rainy nights suck, 0200 calls suck, sitting home next out on a Saturday night sucks(thank god for Netflix), but overall I have no regrets.
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jeffhergert I love railroading, but don't always love the railroad. Jeff
I think you nailed it.
I worked for Seaboard Coast Line out of Miami for 2 years and Waycross for 6 months back in the mid '70s and I really loved it! the best job in the world (until I found an even better job!). from what I have heard and read in the past few years, and in this thread, it seems that what is gone now is the camaraderie of your crew (4 to 5 men on a local or road switch crew) working together. a stuck switch, or a knuckle changeout? you always had someone to give you a hand. a drawback to railroading back then is NO cell phones. I only worked the extra board (I loved the diversity of working something different every time) and when you are near the top of the list, you HAD to stay home to wait for the phone to ring. working out of Miami, of course we had no worries about working in freezing conditions. I can't imagine how railroading would be in Winter conditions! also, the idea of 'training' for the job is laughable. there was no training at all. you learned only what your fellow crewmen told you while you were on your 'student' trips. after a week or so, you marked up and you were expected to know everything!
cudjoebob I worked for Seaboard Coast Line out of Miami for 2 years and Waycross for 6 months back in the mid '70s and I really loved it! the best job in the world (until I found an even better job!). from what I have heard and read in the past few years, and in this thread, it seems that what is gone now is the camaraderie of your crew (4 to 5 men on a local or road switch crew) working together. a stuck switch, or a knuckle changeout? you always had someone to give you a hand. a drawback to railroading back then is NO cell phones. I only worked the extra board (I loved the diversity of working something different every time) and when you are near the top of the list, you HAD to stay home to wait for the phone to ring. working out of Miami, of course we had no worries about working in freezing conditions. I can't imagine how railroading would be in Winter conditions! also, the idea of 'training' for the job is laughable. there was no training at all. you learned only what your fellow crewmen told you while you were on your 'student' trips. after a week or so, you marked up and you were expected to know everything!
Ah, the good old days. I got started in transportation in the mid 1980s, and it was very much the same as you describe it. No formal training...you just picked it up as you went. I remember my first time at the wheel of a tractor trailer... no licence beyond a class 5, and my training consisted of someone shouting "be careful when cornering". But we survived. Nowadays a course and a license is required for everything..even for a forklift. That's probably a good thing though.
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The difference between then & now is what you mentioned about 'crew'. With 4 or 5 men on a crew back then, the newbie didn't NEED to know much of anything beyond being able to follow simple direct instruction from the crew's Conductor. Today, when the newbie makes his first day on his own - HE IS THE CONDUCTOR in most all cases. While with a 2 man crew the Conductor doesn't supervise anyone, he also doesn't get the help of a old head in pointing out obvious mistakes he is setting himself up for.
Back then, entry level jobs in the industry were just that entry level jobs where one had the opportunity to learn the job before being placed in a responsible position. Now at all levels, all 'entry level' jobs are to positions that have real responsibility. The Conductor, especially in Local Freight and/or Road Switcher and Yard service has the responsibility for mapping out the moves required to get the job done and in many cases in Yard service the Conductor is also a RCO (remote control operator) operating the locomotive from the ground to do the job.
It is a culture shock to, in short order, go from an non-railroad individual off the street to having to be a productive Conductor. This form of 'forced feeding' is being used in virtually all Contract (Union covered employees) positions, from trackman, carman, signalman, Train Dispatcher and all the other crafts required to operate a railroad. The on call nature of being hired to the Extra Board just adds to the culture shock for most people.
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zugmann Even conductors now have to be "certified". Certifications are like those reward cards from the stores: multiple and mostly useless.
Even conductors now have to be "certified".
Certifications are like those reward cards from the stores: multiple and mostly useless.
I need a bigger wallet to carry all of my certifications...but then again...when was the last time someone asked me if I was certified to handle a propane tank. Can't remember the last time anyone asked me for my first aid certification either... All those cards should at least be good for a free coffee somewhere..
We have a small group who went into TE&Y service in the early 1990s. There was an engineer shortage at the time. They finished their conductor's training on a Friday and started firing (engineer's training) the following Monday.
Most of them, but I don't think all, were transfers from other departments (clerical, MOW, etc) within the railroad. Now I think you have to have at least a year in train service before entering engine service.
That is what it is supposed to be; however, when the numbers don't add up vs. retirements and those getting 1 year of Conductor service - shorter times happen.
jeffhergert Now I think you have to have at least a year in train service before entering engine service. Jeff
Now I think you have to have at least a year in train service before entering engine service.
Quite often team work today means people are out there working by themselves, and that seems to be the way it is on the railroad as well. That's usually ok, but can present serious problems when things go wrong and there's no help immediately available. We've had a couple of cases over the years where someone has died on the job and we didn't find out about it until a day or more later.
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They warned us that would happen . . . It happens not just to those employed in Train, Engine & Yard service by an actual railroad, but in the associated service businesses, too - in my case, it was a trackwork contractor - too many days from 4 or 5 AM to 7 to 9 PM plus Sat. in the office, and sometimes SUndays. too.
I can relate to that...not so much these days but earlier on in my career. I still prefer working really early in the mornings...not sure why that it is.. just do.
Greetings fellas! I am new to the RR industry & trying to get a conductor job at UP or NS.
This is a really old thread but there's a lot of good stuff so BUMP! I have some Qs regarding these hold overs. And here I thought FURLOUGHS were the big thing to fret about.
When you're held over, they can hold you for 16 hours out of your home terminal after you're shift, before you start getting paid. Until they can find a way for you to deadhome back "home"? So if they hold you 28 hours, you dead head back several hours+. It's now been 2 full days since you worked your 12, and sat for 28. Then deadheaded back. Then what- you work another 12? How often is this happening for extra board guys?
Is it still accurate that UP is famous for shoring up on guys for when it's busy and furloughing them for a year & thinking they'll come back to work at that time?
I had read that a guy made it to engineer in 1.5 years. I was wondering if that's still attainable in the current industry status?
I researched that RR workers are only permitted to work 167 hours per month. That's less than 2 single hours of overtime/month. In all my previous fields, everybody who's anybody knows the way to making real money is in overtime. I was very disappointed in thinking I could make oil field money in the RR industry. It's not even on the same planet or even the same solar system of that type of money. It cut me deep because I know RR not only bust their asses but work in the same type of weather as the oilfields.
Thanks to any RR guys that can answer some of my Qs.
Also guys one more Q... You guys mentioned there are different areas- shortline, working the yard, local(?), and the road gigs where you're in and out of hotels.
It's my understanding that as extra board I will have no say in what I do or what I want to do. If I desired to work the road, never in my home...I would need seniority to do this? It seems like this would be undesirable for many guys with families. A rediculous question- many promient companies pay per diem. What is the per diem rate for each day outside my home terminal?
Perhaps I've had some outrageous expectations for this field in terms of compensation. I was hoping for 75-85 hours a week. $1,000 bucks doesn't cut the mustard. That might be real f'n money to a 21 year old with a very small nut but i have big nuts and I have to provide for them. I would find it desireable to just work every day. I don't have a problem with working, I want to make money. I don't want to be furloughed.
I have worked with guys that didn't even have a "home". They had chicks at our home city but they paid no rent anywhere. We stayed at so many hotels that we were all "super diamond elite" so for the 4-8 days a year we were "home" they just got hotels for free on their rewards. However, I realise this lifestyle wouldn't be possible for the RR as they do not let you work every single day of the week or for a full calendar month. And with room sharing no one is going to be getting a years worth of room points, that's a huge lost perk. It's a bummer they can't cover a room for each of the 4 or 5 man crew. I would never have been able to work with a guy 358 days a year for 10-12 hours/day & then shared a room at night, my God!
Once again, any feedback appreciated
My 20 yr old stepson caught wind of hiring classes going on near home. Although not too serious of it, more curious, I basically talked him out of even thinking of applying. Like I told him of his grandfathe,r who retired from SF 30 over 30 yrs ago after doing the gig for 43 yrs, he did not want his two sons following dad into the industry back in the 70s. History repeats itself. Many retored or and current railroaders are telling their family members the same.
Held away kicks in after 16 hours. You're under pay for 8 hours, then go back off for another 16, then back on pay for 8 hours. Until you go back on duty, either working or deadheading home. Usually you won't get into a second held away. Some places have continuous held away. Once you start, you stay on it until you go back on duty. When in the motel, the railroad pays for the room. Where I work we get $6.00 for the first 12 hours for meals. After 12 hours a second $6.00.
Seniority will determine where and what assignments you will be able to hold. Most seniority districts cover more than one home terminal. Expect at first to hold an extra board. There can be different kinds of extra boards, some only cover yard jobs, others road jobs. Some cover both, depending on the terminal. Almost all trainmen's assignments on class one's have a guarantee now. The rate will vary depending on assignment and railroad. (I've heard UP's rate is better than NS's rate for guarantee.) They don't like paying guarantee so they try to keep boards where you make more working. The monthly hourly limit is 276 hours, not 167. It's unlikely anyone will hit that number.
On the class one's, expect to be furloughed. Regionals and short lines are probably more stable, but they too could furlough if they lose a major customer. Some of the smaller ones are better than others pay/working conditions wise. Still, I'd look at them first for the better stability.
I hear that it can be pretty rough for an Amtrak conductor while qualifying.
SFbrkmnThere is no time limit on becoming an engineer at least w/BNSF. Newton, KS just had its closing for an engr class starting in August. The lower half bidders came from a condr class that just marked up in June. In April, these guys were learning ground service. In about 60 days, engrs will be teaching these same greenhorns on running an eng.
We've had the understanding that the FRA would no longer permit anyone with less than a year's time on the ground become engineers. Something that came out of a wreck some years ago, the kind that made big headlines nation wide. As I recall, the engineer only had a few months of ground experience before becoming an engineer and hadn't been set up very long and the conductor had only been on the job a few months.
Since we haven't had an engineer's class for 6 or 7 years, I don't know how they would handle engine service training. From talking to the new hires, conductor's training isn't the same as when I hired out. (Hint-It isn't better now compared to then. At least the on-the-job part.)
My understanding at CSX before I retired one had to have at least one year working as a Conductor and have a clean record to get 'promoted' to Engineer's School. (Those without a clean records were handled in their own path.) I also understood that if one failed during Engineer's School one was terminated. There was to be no one that held a Conductor Only status after one's turn at being an Engineer came to pass. You either made it through Engineer Training and ultimately got your FRA Engineers Card or you were history.
Pre existing Conductors were 'Grandfathered' if their seniority was before some date - I am thinking 1987 but that may be mistaken.
BaltACD My understanding at CSX before I retired one had to have at least one year working as a Conductor and have a clean record to get 'promoted' to Engineer's School. (Those without a clean records were handled in their own path.) I also understood that if one failed during Engineer's School one was terminated. There was to be no one that held a Conductor Only status after one's turn at being an Engineer came to pass. You either made it through Engineer Training and ultimately got your FRA Engineers Card or you were history. Pre existing Conductors were 'Grandfathered' if their seniority was before some date - I am thinking 1987 but that may be mistaken.
It was the 1985 agreement that said everyone hired after that date could be forced to go into engine service. It's usually filled by seniority bid, you must not be under any discipline/probation, but if there are no bidders they can start forcing people. Like any other vacancy with no bidders, they start at the bottom of the active roster and work up.
(I believe it was the 1972 agreement that first gave those in train service priority in consideration to go into engine service. I think until the 1985 agreement, they could still hire "off the street" for engine service, without first having a trainmen's seniority date. I knew some former RI engineers that left in 1978-79 before the RI shutdown and hired out on the CNW. They only had a CNW engineer's seniority date, no trainman's date.)
Once started on the road to becoming an engineer, you must pass. If you fail, you are out. You can't go back to being a trainmen only. Those pre-1985 conductors can't be forced to engine service. Since I've hired out, I don't recall them needing to force anyone into engine service, or anyone failing it and being terminated.
The numbers of pre-1985 conductors are dwindling where I work. Once they are all gone, they may decide to send everyone through engineer's training. Once everyone is qualified for both crafts, whether you work today as an engineer and tomorrow as a conductor will come down to seniority and preference. A lot of my coworkers think this will eventually happen. I think it's a ways off, but some short lines do that already.
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