Another Kozzie Q popping up from Downunder...heh heh :)

[Kozzie]

Were the articulated steam locos ever used for regular passenger services, or any at all...or were they really only used for freight haulage? [:)][;)]

(I'm always on the lookout for something diferent in the passenger train world..heh heh [;)] and I suspect an articulated steam loco hauling passenegr cars would be a bit unusual...???[:0][;)][;)])

Hope y'all are having a great Summer [8D]

Cheers [:)][;)]

Dave [:)]

[Train Guy 3]

I think the N&W may have used a Class A (2-6-6-4) for passenger services before. I know they took Class J's(4-8-4) and used the in frieght service before.

[Modelcar]

Dave, I'm quite sure the answer is yes....I personally can't give you the specifics without looking up some data but pretty sure we can say yes. Wouldn't be a bit surprised to have found them helping up around the Curve at Altoona and to the summit back in steam days. I'm sure others on here can cite some examples.

[Kozzie]

Thanks Train Guy 3 and Modelcar, others may be able to post as they read this one.

Cheers

Dave

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Dave, I've run through all the possibilities in my head for railroads that used modern (post WW1) articulateds as road power (not helper power) on passenger trains and come up with only UP, which assigned Challengers to heavy passenger trains on the OSL-OWR&N and on the LA&SL. Any of the Kratville UP power books would tell you how many and which class and when. (UP used heavy 2-10-2s as road passenger power in the Blue Mountains, too, the only railroad I can think of that did that, either.)

If you want to consider helpers to be passenger power -- which is not something a railroad would consider -- then it gets complicated really fast, because everyone used everything for a helper sooner or later, from 0-6-0s to high-drivered 4-6-2s, depending on how desperate they were that day.

If anyone cares to go through LeMassena's book Articulated Steam, it will have the answer for every road with articulateds.

Modelcar, sorry to disappoint, but PRR had no articulateds other than a couple of experimentals that they banished to hump yards to toil in complete obscurity.

Thanks Mark - Looks like freight was the main job for these locos.
(pssst..Mark - did you get my message?)

Dave

[Modelcar]

Mark....Didn't the TI actually do some passenger work on the Pennsy...?

[Overmod]

FWIW -- UP used Challengers on passenger service, and indeed had some painted in the passenger gray colors.

N&W routinely used class As in heavy passenger service, and in fact equipped some with passenger communication whistles (one of these was quite recently on sale at eBay)

My understanding is that SP used cab-forwards of some classes for heavy passenger work.

I suspect that under a slightly wider classification of 'passenger' service (i.e. troop trains) there was more extensive use of articulateds -- Big Boys, for example.

The PRR T1 is, of course, not an articulated locomotive. Neither were the Q classes. These are duplex-drive, with two separate "engine" units in a common rigid frame.

In my opinion, quite a bit of limitation on the use of articulateds as passenger power is in the economics of locomotive efficiency vs. passenger-train size. Platform length limits the effective size of a passenger train, even if the train can be divided into 'rakes' of cars and switched to separate platforms at intermediate stations. By the end of the '40s, a number of the large eight-drivered locomotives were capable of running trains of over 20 cars in normal service, which is already over what an individual 'section' of a name train would be. A properly-designed articulated would be capable of working heavier grades unassisted, or a given 'ruling' grade at higher speed, but at the cost of higher capital cost, complexity, and fuel consumption at all other times; the relatively lower effective maximum speed of the hinged engines imposes an upper limit (although perhaps not always a meaningful one) on the end-to-end trip time for a train -- which is usually the important criterion. In some cases -- I believe UP is an example -- the ability to work a couple of intervening steep grades without helpers or helper-related stops and delays was 'worth' the added expense of using fast 12-coupled 4-cylinder power in lieu of 4-8-4s.

To my knowledge, C&O did not use Alleghenies in passenger service, although I think they would have been among the most appropriately-designed articulated locomotives to be used on that railroad for such a purpose. (Wouldn't it have been interesting to see a couple of them in yellow-and-stainless shrouds for use on the Chessie streamliner after the failure of the M-1 turbines?)

[Modelcar]

...My error on TI and even Q class not quailfying as articulateds..and now thinking back and wondering how they negotiated around curves with a rigid frame...Don't see how they could have eliminated flanges [on some of the wheels], on the drive design of say the T1's....

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

Were the articulated steam locos ever used for regular passenger services, or any at all...or were they really only used for freight haulage? [:)][;)]

(I'm always on the lookout for something diferent in the passenger train world..heh heh [;)] and I suspect an articulated steam loco hauling passenegr cars would be a bit unusual...???[:0][;)][;)])

Hope y'all are having a great Summer [8D]

Cheers [:)][;)]

Dave [:)]

I think the C & O used the H-4,H-5,H6 class(2-6-6-2) a few times.
And I'm 99% sure they didn't use the Alleghenies(H-8 2-6-6-6)[:)]

[espeefoamer]

SPs cab forwards were common in helper service on passenger trains in the Tehachapis and over Donner Pass.UP commonly used Challengers (4-6-6-4s) on passenger trains.Near the end of steam,SP ran a fantrip behind a cab forward over Donner Pass.

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Locomutt: Come to think of it, you're right: For three years I had on my desk a David Plowden photo of a C&O 2-6-6-2 preparing to depart White Sulphur Springs on a local passenger train.

Overmod: You're correct about early SP cab-forwards being designed for and used on passenger trains. They did not last long in that service, however. These were the smaller cab-forwards, not the big ones that dominated the fleet.

Mark, thank you;
You do know that engineers were forbidden to make black smoke through
White Sulpher Springs.
At least to the best of my knoweledge,C&O didn't use the H-7's (2-8-8-2's)for passenger
service;They did pull some freights,but the best recollection,is helper service
at Limeville,and hump service at Russell.[:)]

And remember C&O sold UP about 25 of those critters.[:)]

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...My error on TI and even Q class not quailfying as articulateds..and now thinking back and wondering how they negotiated around curves with a rigid frame...Don't see how they could have eliminated flanges [on some of the wheels], on the drive design of say the T1's....

I believe that they did have blind drivers.[:)]

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

Were the articulated steam locos ever used for regular passenger services, or any at all...or were they really only used for freight haulage? [:)][;)]

(I'm always on the lookout for something diferent in the passenger train world..heh heh [;)] and I suspect an articulated steam loco hauling passenegr cars would be a bit unusual...???[:0][;)][;)])

Hope y'all are having a great Summer [8D]

Cheers [:)][;)]

Dave [:)]

I think the C & O used the H-4,H-5,H6 class(2-6-6-2) a few times.
And I'm 99% sure they didn't use the Alleghenies(H-8 2-6-6-6)[:)]

Walt, Mark, anyone, what sort of passengers cars would have been used behinf the C&O 2-6-6-2s/

Walt, when you say, H4, H5 and H6 classes - were they all 2-6-6-2s?

Dave

[cherokee woman]

Kozzie, I'm writing for Walt.

He says, "yes, all the H series up to H-6 were 2-6-6-2s. All the H series were articu-
lated. H-1 thru H-6s were 2-6-6-2s; H7s were 2-8-8-2s and H8 (the Allegheny) was
2-6-6-6.

It's hard to remember the passenger cars, cause it's been so long, but some of
them were good old standard passenger cars (heavy weights) and some were the Budd passenger cars (lightweights).
cars.[:)]

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

Kozzie, I'm writing for Walt.

He says, "yes, all the H series up to H-6 were 2-6-6-2s. All the H series were articu-
lated. H-1 thru H-6s were 2-6-6-2s; H7s were 2-8-8-2s and H8 (the Allegheny) was
2-6-6-6.

It's hard to remember the passenger cars, cause it's been so long, but some of
them were good old standard passenger cars (heavy weights) and some were the Budd passenger cars (lightweights).
cars.[:)]

Paula - thanks for the info [:)][;)]

drephpe must be away or on holidays, as he would have "smelled a rat" by now..[;)][:)] heh heh...... I must admit, I do have a Spectrum HO 2-6-6-2 on lay-by (modeller's life line [:0] ) and I was hoping that I was able to do more than run freight cars behind it.

Mark said earlier that he had a David Plowden photo of a C&O 2-6-6-2 preparing to depart White Sulphur Springs on a local passenger train.

What would have been the terminals for that service?

Dave

[locomutt]

What would have been either Huntington or Clifton Forge, Kozzie.
But more than likely, I think it would have been Clifton Forge.[:)]

[Modelcar]

...Would the White Sulphur Springs stop be the small depot adjacent to the great Greenbrier Hotel....If so I had a chance to stop there back 10 years or so ago and look around. A nice little depot at a fabulus resort. Believe I was passing near by on I-64.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt

What would have been either Huntington or Clifton Forge, Kozzie.
But more than likely, I think it would have been Clifton Forge.[:)]

Walt - thanks for that. Calling on your patience, but Clifton Forge for one terminus. What as the other one?

Dave

[Modelcar]

Dave....Did you have a chance to look at the Johnstown Incline Plane web site, and if so...what do you think...

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Dave....Did you have a chance to look at the Johnstown Incline Plane web site, and if so...what do you think...

Quentin - Thanks for the web stie info - I googled with Johnstown Incline Plane and I did get to that site. What a fantastic view from the lookout! Like being in a plane!

Does that degree of incline even beat the European cog railways such as those in Switzerland?

Dave

p.s. has anyone heard from drephpe lately? I miss his dry witty comments....

[Overmod]

Modelcar -- you're right about White Sulphur Springs. This also explains why smoke regulations were rigidly dictated in this area... and in part why 2-6-6-2s were required on some "local" trains. (One would suspect the presence of relatively heavy private cars!)

Be interesting to hear some actual experience from C&O crew or fans familiar with this.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Dave:
I'm going to turn the question around. Have Garratts ever been used in passenger service, either in Australia or elsewhere?

Paul

[Modelcar]

Dave....Have run across some info indicating the B&O did use EM-1's in passenger service up until 1947. Was looking through my "B&O Thunder In The Alleghenies" book and found that info.
Overmod.....Thanks for conformation. Yes, I can understand why they frowned on smoke in that immediate area.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Dave:
I'm going to turn the question around. Have Garratts ever been used in passenger service, either in Australia or elsewhere?

Paul

Paul - a very good question. [:)] I'll do some digging and let you know! I would be surprised if they did. Peter (M636C) would know for sure, but I haven't ehard from him lately on the Forum. [;)]

Dave

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt

What would have been either Huntington or Clifton Forge, Kozzie.
But more than likely, I think it would have been Clifton Forge.[:)]

Walt - thanks for that. Calling on your patience, but Clifton Forge for one terminus. What as the other one?

Dave

Kozzie,
That would have been Huntington,or Hinton,W.Va.[:)]

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Would the White Sulphur Springs stop be the small depot adjacent to the great Greenbrier Hotel....If so I had a chance to stop there back 10 years or so ago and look around. A nice little depot at a fabulus resort. Believe I was passing near by on I-64.

You do know that the C&O actually owns the Greenbrier,don't you[?][:)]

[Modelcar]

Dave just mentioned Peter in above post and I was just thinking today we've not heard anything from the 2nd Australian fellow lately....

[Overmod]

Several Garratts were used in passenger service. The most notable, imho, being the streamlined 'double Pacifics' in Algeria just before WW II. This is surely on the short list of contenders of fastest articulated steam locomotive ever built. South and East Africa are also likely to produce passenger examples, as is (I think) Java or somewhere close by. There is a Garratt site that has pix of many types of engine; presence of trailing passenger cars in pictures would help answer the question.

I believe the NZR's infamous Garratts were intended as dual-service engines, and were certainly used on some passenger trains.

[Modelcar]

Locomutt....Yes, I am aware of that and in fact have looked at the Greenbrier site on the CSX web site several years ago...Pretty extensive info on it about the complex, etc...If I remember correctly, quite a few good photos of the area....

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Locomutt....Yes, I am aware of that and in fact have looked at the Greenbrier site on the CSX web site several years ago...Pretty extensive info on it about the complex, etc...If I remember correctly, quite a few good photos of the area....

Thanks for the support,If I remember correctly,Congress has an underground
bunker there.That is a great location.I have several photos from that area.[:)]