conrail split

[willy6]

first let me say i'm a novice rail fan.
i just got done reading an article about the Conrail split and how NS and CSX got pieces and parts. I could not make heads or tails out of this article of who got what.Could someone please explain it who got what and how on the Conrail split without using lawyer talk? i would greatly appreciate it.

[coalminer3]

In simplest terms, CSX got most of what used to be the New York Central, and NS got most of what used to be the PRR. There are also "shared assets" in the NY/NJ area and trackage rights in other locations. IIRC, the shared assets segment is still operated by Conrail. Richard Saunders's book, Main Lines: Rebirth of the North American Railroads, 1970-2002 will give you all the details (in English) - recommend you take a look at this.

Hope this helps.

work safe

[willy6]

thank you COALMINER3,you condensed the 4 page article into something easier to understand.

[ShaunCN]

I saw a CSX autoparts boxcar with NYC markings the other day. Was interesting too see.

[MP173]

Richard Saunder's two books on mergers are both interesting books. I highly recommend both from my standpoint, which is more on the historical and operational aspects of railroading, rather than the photofan aspect.

If you are looking for pictures of old paint schemes on rare locomotives...save your money. If you are looking for how we got to 2004 in this industry, order today.

MP173

[Anonymous]

NS got 58%, CSX got 43%, CSX letters both engines and cars "NYC", NS letters engines PRR (a few units got CRCX lettering) but NS cars still have CR reporting marks.

[JoeKoh]

Yep including alot of MOW equipment that ns got too.
stay safe
Joe

[cstaats]

It would make for an interesting map of the month to see the pre-Conrail Northeast, the Conrail era and what it looks like today. I need to check out Richard Saunders's book and see how the rest of the lines were split up.

[Anonymous]

Main Lines: Rebirth of the North American Railroads ...... $50 at Amazon! And no library in my county has it.

Anyone seen this book cheaper? Sounds like a great read/historical reference.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Another factor in the split was the formation of the "New Conrail" and before there is any disagrement of it there was an article in a recent trains(July) that stated that in some areas there was no room for two railroads such as the Doremus Avenue Auto terminal at Port Newark, N.J. in this case a company under the Conrail name And Harold they take control of the area and move both CSX and NS traffic.

[Anonymous]

There was not even enough room for ONE railroad here in northern New Jersey and the area. Not enough yard space, not enough passing sidings, etc etc , and no open space to do anything about it. Many passing sidings are in residential areas, and the people complain about idling trains, etc. Me? I enjoyed it!

I think that was Conrail's strong point .... they were able to manage what other railroads would consider unmanageable. Kind of JIT (Just In Time) railroading.

This Shared Assets arrangement expires 5 years after the merger, which I think is about now. So, CSX and NS may split it up, or extend the arrangement.

This might be it completely for the Big Blue engines (what small, dirty, rusty ones are left).

Jim

[Anonymous]

They shouldn't have even put the "Conrail" in Conrail Shared Assets, half on the engines were in CSX and NS paint and they weren't even #ed for Conrail.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cstaats

It would make for an interesting map of the month to see the pre-Conrail Northeast, the Conrail era and what it looks like today. I need to check out Richard Saunders's book and see how the rest of the lines were split up.

Comparisons of tonnage over 5 10 year periods, Major engineering upgrades, Ownership changes and anything new that has been added. that would make it even better. The Saunders book sounds like a good read so I'll join you in that

[Anonymous]

The CSXT would have got all of 100% of Conrail if butt sniffin NS Would have kept their nose clean,It still makes me so damn mad in how the south invaides the north.I hate the NS more than ever now.I was born and raised in the east and just to see conrail broke up like that just makes me sick.I will never ever railfan in the east ever again.
There was a lot of history behind Conrail,Conrail ment alot to me in my time. The book of history has been closed. What lies ahead is unknown.Conrail should have never died!
I will miss you CONRAIL!
BNSFrailfan.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

It's interesting to note that NS made two attempts to purchase Conrail intact. The first attempt was rebuffed by political arm-twisting and a "Let Conrail be Conrail" public relations campaign by Conrail management.

The second attempt was about to lead to a big-time bidding war with CSX when negotiations to divide Conrail between the two bidders were allowed by the STB.

[Anonymous]

I became interested in railroading just as Conrail was formed (when I was 16), and have lived near tracks in NJ my whole life. So, it did really stink when it was split up. Sounds corny, but it was a sad thing. I went from having a pretty cool railroad "to call my own," to nothing.

At least if it were a merger, like BN and SF, or something. Still have Conrail colors on the engines and the name around .... in some way, shape, or form.

But they just killed it, and ripped it in half, and soon the vultures will take the little pieces that are left.

Jim

[BaltACD]

The history of railroad has been about companies coming and going, being bought and sold, being merged and split....on and on and on to the point where we are today with onece were thousands of railroad companies merged down to functionally 4 US Class I's and 2 Canadian Class I's (one of which, CN has enough mileage and revenues to be a Class I on its US holdings alone). While we can bemoan the ConRail split, it is nothing more than the continuing evolution of the rail system of this country.

If you mourn ConRail, you should also mourn all the predecessor companies that went into the formation of ConRail (PRR, NYC, RDG, LV, EL, CNJ and the hundreds of smaller companies that those roads fed on).

Railroading is a brutal business, in more ways than one. It is brutal from the sheer business aspect...turn enought profit to be able to reinvest in new equipment and technology or die. It is brutal from the competition aspect, trucks, barges and other rail carriers comptete for the same traffic....there is only one winner at a time, and sharp traffic managers play each carrrier off against the rest of the competition to get better rates and service. It is brutal from the employee stand point, operating mistakes are punishable by death, the hours are long and vary around the clock, for the operating employee railroading is not just a job, it is a lifestyle....live it or leave.

The ConRail split is just symptomatic of the brutal nature of the rail industry.

[cpbloom]

I suppose you could mourn those railroads too, only thing is I wasn't around when they were. Conrail is the reason I am a Railfan although I like all railroads. For example, my second favorite railroad is the Santa Fe but I have never lived in Chico territory. I don't hold any ill will towards CSX and NS or any railroads; if only one of them would have gotten Conrail that attitude would be different.

[Anonymous]

There's not a one of those smaller companies that wouldn't have built every last mile of US rail if they had access to the funding to do so "in their time".

They didn't, so instead many players found ways through hook or crook to build incrementally what they could manage. The consolidation process that has gone on ever since is little more than "natural selection" in the business world.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cstaats

It would make for an interesting map of the month to see the pre-Conrail Northeast, the Conrail era and what it looks like today. I need to check out Richard Saunders's book and see how the rest of the lines were split up.

Yes it certainly would...I'd like to see a similar map for Ohio/Indiana/Michigan/Illinois, IF ANYONE READING CAN MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

Several months ago they did a "shipping volume" map of the month depicting the split, but lacked the detail I would like to have seen, instead employing the standard disclaimer of "Not all routes shown" that was minorly irritating as much as it was anything else.

[Anonymous]

You guys are right, but ...

It is the Child in me that mourns Conrail. Perhaps they were like a local sports team. They were our team (railroad), and they were pretty darn good.

It is child-like enjoyment that I got by watching the big blue engines. Its what causes me to drive out of my way just to pass an area where i might see some switching going on. Its what causes me to slow down way ahead of a grade crossing --- hoping that I may get stuck and have to watch a nice long, freight go by.

.As an adult, I do realize the realities of the world. I was checking out colleges this morning, wondering how I'm going to afford 25k a year for each of my kids (and that's for state universities and not taking into account 8 - 15 % annual increases). But the brutal business aspect of railroading is not what makes me a "fan." Heck, I'd be a Microsoft fan, then.

The predecessor roads were before my railroading time, so I can't really "mourn" them. But I am very interested in them .... as they are part of the history of my neck of the woods, and I have family that worked for PRR and DL&W.

It is a bit different that pre Conrail roads were broke --- financially and mechanically, while Conrail was strong and profitable. PennCentral was (and is) a fiasco.

Anyway, as a civil engineer by training, I'll take fun and technology over business any day.

Hey, but that's just me.
Jim
Rockaway NJ

[jeaton]

I seem to recall that Trains did a comprehensive map showing the Conrail split, but I could be wrong. Age thing, you know. Anyway, Train's map makers are the best and if it hasn't been done before, maybe it could be put on the list.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

I seem to recall that Trains did a comprehensive map showing the Conrail split, but I could be wrong. Age thing, you know. Anyway, Train's map makers are the best and if it hasn't been done before, maybe it could be put on the list.

Hey, I'm getting pretty old too, but I seem to remember it as a "gross tonnage for major lines" type volume/route map rather than a themed "what went to whom" map...but I haven't gotten EVERY issue,,I've missed a few, so I could be mistaken

[Anonymous]

1. Suppose someone wished to buy that back issue, but knew no more about it than we just discussed here, without knowing which month and year to request, how would they go about getting the right issue?

1a. Haven't there been some instances where the original split of the pie has been re divied? Maybe an updated version of the archived map wouldn't be THAT big a deal to republish? (just a thought)

2.The sentiment you express regarding RR's being business entities vs venues of entertainment strikes a chord with me, similar contemplation often sweeps over me when an issue of "Trains" goes off the deep end with the nostalgia bug for steam... Sure, guys who really have a "thing" for steam pay for the magazine too, and as such deserve to be "entertained" in reading story's that appeal to them...but the editorial presentation of steam as the "good guy" and dieselization as the foe or "bad guy" gets a little thick sometimes . I could understand it in "Classic Trains", because that pub (which I buy also) is themed towards living in the past.

Sometimes it's just seemed a little strange to read some of your well written opening statements about the changing playing field, and the route ahead, then have half the magazine that follows devoted to 50 year old memories...

[JoeKoh]

Mark and others
start with the June 1997 issue and July 1998 issue.shows the proposed split and the second shows the lines around Cleveland.hope this helps.
stay safe
Joe

[MP173]

I guess in an ideal world we would have Conrail, or even Penn Central or perhaps PRR, NYC, EL, etc.

But the reality is that railroading in the 70's was pretty much like the rest of America back then....colorful at the surface, but pretty dark once you got past the outer layer.

I picked up my first Trains in May, 1972 (I think). The cover was a painting of the Super Chief in Los Angeles with celebreties. At the time I was 16 and railroading became a wonderful passion.

A branch line of the Illinois Central split the little town in two and each day a local went south and another went north. Traffic was healthy with 60 to 100 cars a day, pulled by GP7's and GP9's at 35mph. By the end of the decade it was 1 train a day and perhaps 20 mph. Then 10 mph and slowly the line died, after being sold off.

Why do I bring this up? That branch line really symbolized what railroading was at that time. It was spiralling downward. I used to watch the boxcars go by and wonder where all of those far off railroads were located. No, not the Santa Fe (all the way) or the UP, but the TAG, Frisco, Katy, etc. What names!

A family friend who worked for the IC gave me an old 1968 Official Guide and i had information.

Looking back at the old OG this morning and seeing all of the railroad lines, it is amazing that it worked. If you moved a load of televisions from Bloomington, Indiana to the west coast it took several railroads and quite an investment in time.

I miss certain aspects of those times, both in my personal life and as a railfan (my favorite railfanning day was spending time in a tower, getting to know the operator ...if he/she was willing, and then listening to the dynamics of how the division worked). But, make no mistake about it...railroading then was not healthy and was in danger of something drastic occuring.

For those of you under the age of 40, go buy a few Trains magazines from the late 60's/early 70's....just a couple of issues and you will understand very quickly.

Staggers changed everything, and just in time.

Towers are gone, branch lines are gone, GP9's are gone, Frisco boxcars are gone, double track mains are often gone, hell, even mainlines are gone. But the institution remains, much stronger than before.

Tonnage is considerably higher than before on what lines are left. Mainlines are built to high standards....anyone remember watching PC freights "rock and roll" thru the muddy right of ways? Coal trains are running, double stacks, solid auto racks.

Somewhere John Kneiling must be smiling, knowing it is at least moving in the right direction.

BTW...where is John these days? Is he still alive? I miss his commentary.

MP173

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

The place to start to locate that map is the index of back issues -- you'll find it on the home page. If that doesn't work, e-mail the staff or Customer Service and ask them which issue it appeared in. I suspect it appeared in the Conrail "Mission Accomplished" issue, right at the breakup. But I don't have my back issues at hand yet.

I don't see what's strange about the magazine (a) speaking to as many readers as possible (b) using history to inform today. History is who we are, and how we got here, and it's a valuable tool to know where we ought to go.

Not to be rude -- forums tend to make us all exaggerate -- but which 50% of which issue is devoted to 50-year-old memories?

Thanks for the ordering info [;)]

Without going off the deep end(and having to open boxes in the attic) looking through the loose issues immediately at my disposal,, May 2001 and December 2002 seemed a little off the deep end hooting and howling for steam..

May 2001 in particular (despite a very interesting picture of you on page 6 I might add ;-) seemed more like a "honorary issue of classic trains" . By the time one removes the Steam content, and removes the old diesels from fallen flags (which I happen to like BTW, THIS ISN"T an "I'm UPSET" complaint, just an observation) there wasn't a whole lot left..

The point I see as significant however, is the "good guy/ bad guy" portrayal of how diesels done steam 'wrong' somehow, a theme that seems to wash in the magazine over and over again, almost ad nauseum. Which to me anyway looks like much the same type of sentiment expressed by those complaining about UP gobbling up CNW or N&W gobbling up the Wabash. Life goes on, business is business. And people are people, just picking odd facets of life they deem "Heroic"...

I think you and I are talking about the same thing, just from different (not necessarily opposed) points of view....

To capsulize, sure railroading has an expansive and in many instances a glorious past , but thats no reason to spite either progress or the future.

In looking through my immediate cache of recent issues, I did notice a map of the month in the January 2002 issue that the "pro Conrail" faction here might enjoy, depicting Conrail predessors, making me think what I'd REALLY like to see are "NS predessors" and "CSX predessors" brought current for the post conrail era? Maybe even in back to back issues to aid us of failing memory who might forget the two themes are related? [:o)]

[jeaton]

TAG-Just checked The February, 2003 Train's page 52 for CSX predessors. It is a must for me and anyone else wondering "who was that before...?"

Jay

[BaltACD]

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

That is a pragmatism built upon a near 40 year career of being a survivor as the companies that consititue my employer have gone from a collective employment of near 200 thousand employees to less than 30 thousand over my employment career. It is a pragmatism built upon seeing locations that I once worked and assisted in the effort to keep trains thundering by no longer even have rails to run trains on. I mourn the friends and fellow employees that no longer are around, I mourn the lines that no longer handle traffic but I accept the realities of the business proposition. Be profitable or die.

The railroads of today are at a great crossroads of their existance. Various governmental agency's predict the total freight traffic in the US will have 100% increase over the next twenty years. The railroads that have been sheding capacity for the past 50 years now find they don't have sufficient capacity to handle todays traffic volumes, let alone significant increases in volume. The question that only time will answer is....Do today's managements, that have only cut facilities and employment for their employment careers, have the foresight, vision and guts to grow the rail properties to see the rail gain it's rightful share of the increased traffic voumes. The shipping public of today doesn't want to experience bad and untimely service account phyical plant limitations compounded by crew/equpment issues. They want what they want....and they want it NOW. Will the railroads be able to deliver?

[Anonymous]

Mark,

Well I don't think I have "misconstrued" the magazine, because I rather like it [sigh]

This really isn't an axe being ground (not for me anyway) but at the same time I don't think I just hallucinated this out of thin air either.

Moreover (just to be sure we are on the same page) I'm not saying that Kalmbach has taken an editorial stand on the issue, not in so many specific words, rather there just seems to be a sentiment that oozes out of many articles, reader contributions, and guest writers OFTEN that portrays steam as a conceptual victim and the diesel in the role of villian.. seems strikingly similar to the laments I often see here about fallen flags and the entities that gobbled them up..

Tell ya what, not trying to start a spat or anything, but over the next several issues i'll just touch base here with the board itemizing the instances observed, under the hope you won't think I'm doing it just to be "nit picky" rather just in illustration of of the situation....