SAL had E-Bs with hostler controls. As a kid in Jacksonville I watched them being run around single at Jacksonville terminal with a pause before changing directions. Does that mean they had controls at each end? I have no idea but I remember their bells ringing but have no memory of a horn blowing.
CNW 6000 That also includes CN's first order of SD70M-2s (CN 8000-8024) as I recall. Although I don't think they're bad as some say. At least what I've seen anyway.
That also includes CN's first order of SD70M-2s (CN 8000-8024) as I recall. Although I don't think they're bad as some say. At least what I've seen anyway.
Wasn't that due to vibration or noise? Those engines had both of those issues in spades.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Dan
tree68 Every now and then you may encounter a unit that for some reason has issues with the cab (somehow substandard). It'll be marked "do not use as lead unit" or something to that effect, essentially making it a B unit.
Every now and then you may encounter a unit that for some reason has issues with the cab (somehow substandard). It'll be marked "do not use as lead unit" or something to that effect, essentially making it a B unit.
I've heard that some older, non-isolated cab SD70ACes have issues with their cabs, and that BNSF has banned them from leading freights.
The majority of NS units have ditchlights on the rear to permit LHF operation. Just about all the cab signal-equipped engines also have the pickup bars on both ends as well. They even have the speedos mounted on the rear wall of their widebodies. Those CN guys are copycats...
But while the engines are perfectly able to run LHF at track speed (and it does happen on occasion), it still is a pain. So any savings you may find in not turning an engine (or getting a consist that has an engine facing the right way) will be lost in any situation where you have to operate at restricted speed. You also may have to have a competent conductor to keep an eye out of his side of the cab. And when he is on the ground, then the engineer has to be extra vigilant (or posses x-ray vision). Not to mention the extra distance to walk to get a switch or derail.
Using a Gp38 (or similar) for local service LHF isn't that much of a bother, but I can think of a few times when we had to take a road engine LHF to spin it.. what a pain. I don't know what's worse - the GE wings, or the back windows that are covered in oil that never get cleaned. (and sometimes are impossible to access to clean them).
CN may be ahead of the curve here. The last SD70I I was in had a speedometer built into the back wall of the cab. Also had a normal (non-desktop) control stand, so running backwards would not be much of a hassle. They use one on the rock job, single engine making a round trip per shift.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Note that B units with hostler controls had only engine brake and throttle controller but I do not think they had train brake control and therefore could not be used for operating or driving a train.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
BaltACD I am not necessarily advocating for dual cab locomotives....just locomotives that are capable of being used as a leader in both directions. Before the advent of the Wide Cab engines the 'normal' cab engines were able to be operated in either direction (of course, today to be operated in both directions, both ends have to be equipped with operative ditch lights in addition to the headlight). Only being able to use a engine in one direction as a leader limits the effective utilization of a high dollar asset of the company's investment capital.
I am not necessarily advocating for dual cab locomotives....just locomotives that are capable of being used as a leader in both directions. Before the advent of the Wide Cab engines the 'normal' cab engines were able to be operated in either direction (of course, today to be operated in both directions, both ends have to be equipped with operative ditch lights in addition to the headlight). Only being able to use a engine in one direction as a leader limits the effective utilization of a high dollar asset of the company's investment capital.
All that is required is to have the extra ditch lights and a pilot on the rear end. Depending on the style of control stand in the cab it will of course be somewhat to very awkward for the engineer to run in reverse. Some roads installed dual control stands; which one the engineer used depended on the direction the train was going. The result was a much more cramped space in the cab and more controls to maintain.
A big issue is visibility. There were a couple of railroads that chose to have even their 2nd generation units delivered set up with the long hood as front, for collision protection. Today the far better sight lines over the low nose on the short hood seem to be universally preferred.
John
samfp1943 BaltACD: "...My personal views are that today's high horsepower road locomotives should be set up to operate in either direction as a leader (Wide cab locomotives are only set up to operate in one direction as a leader) as there are relatively few locations that power can be turned to utilize a single Wide Cab locomotive on the return trip. Anything that restricts the utility of a locomotive hampers and reduces it's effective utilization and getting maximum utilization out of $2M pieces of investment is critical to growing a carriers financial bottom line." Just a question out of curiosity: Are you possibly advocating a practice similar to the European concept of dual-cabbed locomotives [ie; similar to the 4500 hp GE Power hauls?] : linked@: http://www.freightliner.co.uk/en/freightliner-ltd/equipment/locomotives/#ar-1 " alt="" onload="resizeImage(this);" />
BaltACD: "...My personal views are that today's high horsepower road locomotives should be set up to operate in either direction as a leader (Wide cab locomotives are only set up to operate in one direction as a leader) as there are relatively few locations that power can be turned to utilize a single Wide Cab locomotive on the return trip. Anything that restricts the utility of a locomotive hampers and reduces it's effective utilization and getting maximum utilization out of $2M pieces of investment is critical to growing a carriers financial bottom line."
"...My personal views are that today's high horsepower road locomotives should be set up to operate in either direction as a leader (Wide cab locomotives are only set up to operate in one direction as a leader) as there are relatively few locations that power can be turned to utilize a single Wide Cab locomotive on the return trip. Anything that restricts the utility of a locomotive hampers and reduces it's effective utilization and getting maximum utilization out of $2M pieces of investment is critical to growing a carriers financial bottom line."
Just a question out of curiosity: Are you possibly advocating a practice similar to the European concept of dual-cabbed locomotives [ie; similar to the 4500 hp GE Power hauls?] : linked@:
http://www.freightliner.co.uk/en/freightliner-ltd/equipment/locomotives/#ar-1
" alt="" onload="resizeImage(this);" />
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
(1) There are plenty of shortlines out there with slugs (look at RailAmerica) who do not run at high speed, but want the tractive effort. Relco keeps building them.
(2) I suspect that there will be plenty of units out there that will revert to the practice of having cab units that will essentially be B-Units (can't lead) in everything but appearance, a- la old N&W/WAB C-425's, an certain MKT F7A, UP and D&RGW GP-30's..... largely for financial reasons or what some offline Mexican railroad did to them. (Cabs look huge with seating removed)
(3) I can't count the number of times that some witless dispatcher or power desk clerk tried to assign a B-Unit to a lead or single unit job.
(4) Remote control cabless units sometimes can fill a role. Especially in poorly engineered industrial applications where a man on the side of in the cab might be at risk. (Mookies old BN GP9B At Havelock/Lincoln for example)
We're already seeing that the obsession for 6 axle heavy locomotives is creating a renaissance for older first and second generation units working off the main line where the big brutes dare not go. The new power indeed does have an achilles heel, cabless or not.
CSSHEGEWISCH These are gensets built for remote-control only operation.
These are gensets built for remote-control only operation.
I wouldn't trust a remote controlled locomotive any farther than I could throw it. Still a sharp looking little locomotive however.
-Justin
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
BaltACD "...My personal views are that today's high horsepower road locomotives should be set up to operate in either direction as a leader (Wide cab locomotives are only set up to operate in one direction as a leader) as there are relatively few locations that power can be turned to utilize a single Wide Cab locomotive on the return trip. Anything that restricts the utility of a locomotive hampers and reduces it's effective utilization and getting maximum utilization out of $2M pieces of investment is critical to growing a carriers financial bottom line."
From my day to day vantage point, with power being managed as tightly as possible...B units are a waste, since they are incapable of being used as a leader. There are power assignments where a single unit will be satisfactory...B unit will not work.
My personal views are that todays high horsepower road locomotives should be set up to operate in either direction as a leader (Wide cab locomotives are only set up to operate in one direction as a leader) as there are relatively few locations that power can be turned to utilize a single Wide Cab locomotive on the return trip. Anything that restricts the utility of a locomotive hampers and reduces it's effective utilization and getting maximum utilization out of $2M pieces of investment is critical to growing a carriers financial bottom line.
One factor that cut short the "B unit revival" was the fact that the builders started upcharging for the cost of offering a model as a custom cabless booster variant .ATSF asked GE for a quote on a B40-8B and GE told them they would cost more than a conventional unit with the cab. So, other than saving on whatever maintenance costs were specific to the cab, there was no financial benefit to be gained from ordering a B unit anymore..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
As hp increased per unit it was initially felt that B units were superfluous, thus everything was A or cab units. As train size grew, second and third high hp units were added...with cabs and an exercise to have cabs pointed out on any locomotive set. So, have we come back to where a B unit is cost effective again?
Henry6;
The conversation I was attempting to get to in regards to the application of the B-Unit concept was simply that there has been much progress in the construction of new diesel power (GEVO's, Hybrids, and other 'Green" ideas).
henry6 said: "...I'm not sure what points you are trying to make regarding B units, samfp1943. But your comments underscore the great evolved differences in railroading just in the diesel era. B units were simply a diesel engine and traction motors with no control cab (exeption was B units with hostler control like the DL&W had which allowed for the movement of the locomotive set but not for train propulsion) and thus were mu'd to other A and B units to function..."
At one time the 'B'units enjoyed a measure of success in the industry starting with the A-B-B-A's of the F units configuration ( a first step(?) . progressing to the GP style with some conversions to cabless units (wrecks,in-house needs(?) and so forth. Progressing to larger conversions of the 'SD' units ( the some of the conversions by ATSF to create B uints from wrecked 6-axle units and the B-units purchased as GP-60-B's from the factory.)
Recent mention that BNSF is rapidly reaching a level of AC powered locomotives in their fleet not matched elsewhere; was the point of the question as the ES44CA be comes a reality in larger numbers.
In the past B-Units have been a valid resource for adding power to locomotive sets, as their appearance in a variety of railroad uses. Not to mention CSX's program of converting older units into a 'mother-slug configuration as well as using them as road sets ( of course the non-powered unit retains it control compartment in their road application.
Many B-Units did come from the factory with a set of hostler[as henry6 mention of the DL&W RR's units mentioned] controls, but it is also my understanding that the b-Unit if running in a combination behing a conventionally- equipped cabbed unit. If that lead unit's power becomes disabled, it can still be used as a control for the rest of the units locomotives, to enable those locomotives to be used to get the traiin to a yard.
Mainly, I was wondering if there is a place in today's railroad environment, and if so,WHY/ And if not, reasons?
Thanks!
For your consideration, NS 2120-2121:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1397067
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1620191
Not that i'm an expert, but ill just give my ...
It seems to me that the railroad would be better off to have cabs on all units so that if the need arises to use them as lead units, they can do so without cutting in another locomotive with an operater cab.
In the 'modern' diesel era, BN and AT&SF both had a short lived fascination with 'boosters'. AT&SF bough 23 GP60B units for the same price as 20 A units with the safety cab. BNSF is now converting them to 'cab' units. BN bought something like 100 B30's in booster configuration - they left the roster when the lease expired..
The current trend to large 6 axle units with all the features(safety cab/DPU/etc...) seems to be the fashion now....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I'm not sure what points you are trying to make regarding B units, samfp1943. But your comments underscore the great evolved differences in railroading just in the diesel era. B units were simply a diesel engine and traction motors with no control cab (exeption was B units with hostler control like the DL&W had which allowed for the movement of the locomotive set but not for train propulsion) and thus were mu'd to other A and B units to function. I don't see why A-1-A truck configuration would make any difference. What I think would make a difference, however, is the cost of a full cab and controls vs no cab and controls. BUt manufactureres seemed to talk the railroads into the versitility of being able to use each unit as a control unit, especially in tandem and when retruning...leading cab is always available. So, what are we talking about here?
I suspect one culprit in the demise of B units may be distributed power, and secondarily, today's higher horsepower locomotives. AC traction probably gets some "blame," too.
One used to see locomotive consists of 4, 5, or 6 units (all on line) at the head of a train. If that's a normal circumstance, why bother putting cabs on all of them? Just like F units - you only need a cab at each end.
Nowadays, seeing three units at the head end of a train (or anywhere else in the consist) will usually give one pause.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Having B units means having locomotives that can never be used as the lead locomotive. The railroads have probably figured the extra cost is worth the flexibility when assigning locomotives.
I seem to recall hearing BNSF was converting its GP60Bs into GP60s. A few weeks ago I saw a BNSF GP60 numbered in the 100s (170 if I remember correctly). I wonder if that was a former GP60B.
SP did rebuild one wrecked SSW B36-7 as a cabless unit.
Of course the BN B30-7ABs, the ATSF SD45-2Bs (if I remember correctly), the SSW B36-7B, and even the ATSF GP60Bs were all built (or rebuilt) over 20 years ago now, if I remember the year (1990) the ATSF GP60Bs were built.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
Paul North recently posted a link to A.A. Krug's site, and while surfing through it, found there were some photos of BNSF B-Units. A search of the 'Community Search' feature turned up some topics referencing the B Unit ( a cabless critter designed to be mated to, and controlled by a conventionally engineer,controlled unit).
I have not seen any B Units recently, but I know the BN (nee: AT&SF) had a fleet of GP 60 B's into the year 2000. They also had a number of other B's that were created as ways to utilize locomotives that had suffered damaged cabs in wrecks and for other reasons had their cabs removed, making them into a B-Unit.
I know that the industry still suffer accidents that destroy the control/cab areas of locomotives. But they do not seem to put those engines back on the road as cabless units. I am treated to a parade through this area of new and fairly new high powered GEs and EMDs(?) on BNSF, and UP as well. But the B Units seem to have gone away.
The mother and slug concept is a different critter, so I'll just stick to the "B" subject.
Since GE is bringing back the A1A-A1A concept in the ES44C4 model. It would appear to also be a candidate to become a B style type unit; since most trains seem to run with at least two or more engines, seems like a B Unit would have some utility, and also as a DPUs as well(?)
How many Companies have used the B Unit in recent time (last 20 years(?). I know ATSF/BN/BNSF(?), but have any other lines bought or converted locomotives into B-Units?
Except maybe the CNW who took B-Units, and made them A units with their 'Crandell Cab' in-house modification. "Kit Bashing" is an accepted Hobbiest Term, and has its roots in real word railroad shops as well; when necessity becomes the mother of invention on the shop floor.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.