Sawtooth500 I see both sides of this argument - on one hand what gives the RR max flexibility is killer on crew rest time and what's good for crew rest time kills RR flexibility. How about this - in this day and age of the internet, providing the crew a portal where they can see everything that the dispatcher sees. People on the extra board can see how many people are ahead of them. People can check train locations in real time - so they can tell if a train is running early or late. Basically, give train crews access to all of the information that dispatchers see when they make the decision to call out crews. That way, a crewman, looking at all this info, can make an educated guess whether he is going to be called out an hour from now, or 12 hours from now. Sure, it wouldn't be perfect and sometimes you'll get stuff like a derailment that you just can't predict and that will throw off everything, but at least this way you get information to the crews so they can make educated choices about when they are likely to be called up again.
I see both sides of this argument - on one hand what gives the RR max flexibility is killer on crew rest time and what's good for crew rest time kills RR flexibility.
How about this - in this day and age of the internet, providing the crew a portal where they can see everything that the dispatcher sees. People on the extra board can see how many people are ahead of them. People can check train locations in real time - so they can tell if a train is running early or late. Basically, give train crews access to all of the information that dispatchers see when they make the decision to call out crews. That way, a crewman, looking at all this info, can make an educated guess whether he is going to be called out an hour from now, or 12 hours from now.
Sure, it wouldn't be perfect and sometimes you'll get stuff like a derailment that you just can't predict and that will throw off everything, but at least this way you get information to the crews so they can make educated choices about when they are likely to be called up again.
We have this, too. Unfortunately sometimes all the info isn't displayed or displayed correctly.
One time when I was firing on tne North Pool out of Des Moines, the turn I was on was 4 times out with no trains/jobs showing on the line up. It was a Saturday night about 10pm and I told my wife I was going to bed.
About 1030pm the phone rang, called to deadhead to Mason City. I was glad it was a deadhead, but I had been 4 times out with nothing showing. What happened to the first 3 engineers in the last 30 minutes?
The first out pool engineer was called for a yard engine. At that time most yard jobs were RCO, but one end still had an engr instead of an RCO. I don't remember if it was the rest day or if the regular engr layed off, but there weren't any extra board engrs rested/available so they called an engr off the pool. (There must not have been any extra board engrs at Boone that night. Boone X Brd people not only have to watch their own terminal's boards, but also those boards at a couple of nearby terminals also.) The second pool engr was called to dogcatch. Normally this would be done by the extra board, but as already stated that wasn't possible. The third pool engr was called for a train that was listed on the Boone North Pool line up. Every so often Quaker Oats in Cedar Rapids would get a unit train of oats from up north. The empty train would appear on the Boone line up even though they would usually call a Des Moines crew to take it north on the Short Line (Spine Line) from the connection at Nevada.
Jeff
Heh.... playing the boards is as old as the railroads themselves. The only people that complain are the ones that have been "out-played".
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I've heard of guys marking off or refusing a call beause he doesn't like one or all of the guys he'll be working with. Or he fears he won't be back home in time for an important event. Or one doesn't like the weather or the sounds of the weather. Or he want's to stick it somehow to the next on the list. Etc. The list is used and abused by both sides. When the bottom of the list is hit, then the really hungry extra board is tapped which can result in more of the same behavior anyway. So the system is not always in simple pie order. And I believe a refusal puts you back on the bottom of the board and not just delayed to the next call. Truckers and airline personell have some of the same away from home problems. And although it may be desireable to double back to be home as soon as bpossible, we know fatigue factors play a role in quality and safety. So there are many, many questions and answers that may run counter to whatever rule is made. With a given higher pay scale I think that you've signed on for this job at this rate and you know that you will not be home everynight or every day; this is the job, this is the pay; take it or leave it. The employers have to have the same expecations but also should expect a safe and quality job being done. Fudging to get a crew back home my infact cause a safety or even quality violation. So it is not all black and white by any means but safety and quality have to be the bottom line for the employer to be in business and able to hire and pay help.
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I don't think there'd be enough "money hungry fools" to make up for the "lazy bums". And to have any type of real rest system I think the railroads would have to hire more people...
kolechovski If everybody is on the "opt out" list, then it'd just go in the usual pecking order. In fact, if people see that what they're doing isn't working (like in that matter), they'd probably not mess with the effort. This is meant to be much more short term. As for the gaining work/avoiding work thing, it'd actually be best that those who want work more get it more, and those who want it less get it less. How would teh system work if there were limits on the amount of time you could be on the "opt out" list?
If everybody is on the "opt out" list, then it'd just go in the usual pecking order. In fact, if people see that what they're doing isn't working (like in that matter), they'd probably not mess with the effort. This is meant to be much more short term. As for the gaining work/avoiding work thing, it'd actually be best that those who want work more get it more, and those who want it less get it less. How would teh system work if there were limits on the amount of time you could be on the "opt out" list?
One would be amazed at the 'screw your buddy' moves that take place within calling pools - be they first in - first out working pools or extra board pools. Between calls, rest, displacement or bumping rules and the time periods allowed to exercise them....existance on a extra board or pool turn can turn into a intramural 'war', as the players try to either gain more work or hide from work.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
First nice weekend and the entire list would "opt out". Or the first - fourth on the list would "opt out", so the fifth guy would say "forget this" and he would then opt out. Followed by the 6th, 7th, 8th....
I would rather see a system of x-number of days on call, then y-number of days off call (if you would so choose), regardless of whether you actually worked every one of those days or not. When you are 1st out, and you don't work for 24 hours, it's not like you are able to do much.
now, why the timing was interesting-I had pretyped a question abotu another idea to handle this specific issue to be posted today, so here it is:
Railroad call-in process
I was wondering if anyone out there works for any railroad that normally gives a bit of flexibility to when you can work. Specifically, is there any type of system on any railroad where employees who don't want to work for the time being can "opt out", while anyone who is well rested and ready to go to work can "opt in"? What I'm thinking of is that the rotation of crewmen would still exist, but those who "opt in" would be called in first as openings appear, as they are ready and in the best shape for work. Those who "opt out" would rather not come into work for the time being and would be called more as a last resort. Anyone can change their status at any time and revert to normal status at any time. Does any railroad allow any type of system like this? If so, which railroad, and how does it work in your location? And, if not, what would you think about this type of system?
In case you're wondering, there is still the usual food chain, and if there are not currently any more people in the "opt in" category when openings appear, the calls go on the usual rotation, and those on the "opt out" category may still get called if absolutely needed, just not preferred if avoidable. This has nothing to do with seniority or bids for regularly-scheduled times. The aim is to reduce the randomness and unpredictability of the usual process, to get people into work when they are most ready and willing to come in, to have employees who are thereby well-rested and alert, and to try to avoid employees who are not in a good position to come into work, whether it be from being tired, or other reasons. Finally, this is not meant to change the total number of hours worked in a week, just to shift things around a bit to accomplish the above goals.
Very interesting timing, this. First, for those of you who haven't read the artivle, here it is:
http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2011/04/Union%20official%20Rest%20period%20should%20be%20set%20before%20not%20after%20train%20service.aspx
On my carrier crews already have that portal....what they can't see is the decision making process that involves what trains will be called where and when and for what reasons that are not a part of existing data. While crews can 'prognosticate' about what decisions may or may not be made....they won't know until the decision is made and set in motion. The operating environment is a ever changing dynamic environment and many times even the normal 2 hour call goes horribly awry. Just like the weather, the further out your push the projection, the higher the incidence of error.
Sawtooth500 How about this - in this day and age of the internet, providing the crew a portal where they can see everything that the dispatcher sees. People on the extra board can see how many people are ahead of them. People can check train locations in real time - so they can tell if a train is running early or late. Basically, give train crews access to all of the information that dispatchers see when they make the decision to call out crews. That way, a crewman, looking at all this info, can make an educated guess whether he is going to be called out an hour from now, or 12 hours from now. Sure, it wouldn't be perfect and sometimes you'll get stuff like a derailment that you just can't predict and that will throw off everything, but at least this way you get information to the crews so they can make educated choices about when they are likely to be called up again.
And the entire exercise really falls apart when you try to apply the mechanics to a Extra Board that supports a First In-First Out Pool as well as several assigned Road Switcher (Local Freight) assignments and yard jobs at a major terminal. Throw in the displacement rights (which may or may not be immediately exercised) employees obtain when particular jobs are abolished....crew calling personnel may not even know the order of call 10 hours in advance of a specific call.
But Andy, the argument I've gotten is reverse of your reaction....if a guy is at his away terminal he wants the second call as soon as possible. A in/out turnaround to home is what one guy told me he wanted rather than languising at some remote location for maybe 24 hours or more!. It seems each job, run, location, and crewman have their own individual quirks and desires. Neither union, management, nor government safey rules are going to satisfy somebody.
Paul_D_North_Jr Please clarify what would be the 'extremes' of that example - such as whether the 2 hr. final call is included within the +/- 6hr. time frame, as follows: 2nd call at 6 PM for 8 PM on-duty time (6 hrs. before 2 AM per 1st call) - which at 6 PM would be only 4 hrs. after receiving the 1st call at 2 PM ? Or at 8 PM (6 hrs. before 2 AM per 1st call) = 6 hrs. after receiving 2 PM 1st call, for 10 PM on-duty time ? Likewise for a late 2nd call: 2nd call at 6 AM for 8 AM on-duty time (6 hrs. after 2 AM per 1st call) - which at 6 AM would be 16 hrs. after receiving the 1st call at 2 PM ? Or at 8 AM (6 hrs. after 2 AM per 1st call) = 20 hrs. after receiving 1st call at 2 PM, for 10 AM on-duty time ? As you can see, depending on the interpretation, the range of actual 2nd calls could be from 4 hrs. to 16 hrs., or 6 hrs. to 20 hrs., after the 1st call (each 'delta' is 14 hrs. = +/- 6 hrs. + 2 hrs.) - Paul North.
Please clarify what would be the 'extremes' of that example - such as whether the 2 hr. final call is included within the +/- 6hr. time frame, as follows:
2nd call at 6 PM for 8 PM on-duty time (6 hrs. before 2 AM per 1st call) - which at 6 PM would be only 4 hrs. after receiving the 1st call at 2 PM ? Or at 8 PM (6 hrs. before 2 AM per 1st call) = 6 hrs. after receiving 2 PM 1st call, for 10 PM on-duty time ?
Likewise for a late 2nd call: 2nd call at 6 AM for 8 AM on-duty time (6 hrs. after 2 AM per 1st call) - which at 6 AM would be 16 hrs. after receiving the 1st call at 2 PM ? Or at 8 AM (6 hrs. after 2 AM per 1st call) = 20 hrs. after receiving 1st call at 2 PM, for 10 AM on-duty time ?
As you can see, depending on the interpretation, the range of actual 2nd calls could be from 4 hrs. to 16 hrs., or 6 hrs. to 20 hrs., after the 1st call (each 'delta' is 14 hrs. = +/- 6 hrs. + 2 hrs.)
- Paul North.
Or, he goes off duty, sleeps 8 hours, expecting a call in 12 hours. The call comes after 20 hours and once again, the guy is going to almost all the way through his natural "awake" period.
The union is suggesting turning the 10 hours around. Giving the guy a 10 hour call, for example. The call comes, he goes to bed, wakes up 8 hours later and goes to work.
That won't work because perhaps the train he's being called runs well and will be 2 hours early for the intermediate recrew. You don't really have a place to park the train while it waits two hours for the crew - the crew and the train have to be ready at the same time.
So, I was throwing out the idea of an "advanced call" that would leave some wiggle room to tune it up a few hours either way as the train got closer to the recrew point. Might also have to think about whether the notion of 10 hours undisturbed is allowed to be violated by a final call.
Crews tend to look at train lineups to see about when their next call will be, but it this would start to turn a best guess into a commitment.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I suspect the preference would be for no "second call," as that interrupts your rest.
This one is really tough. Imagine everything that can happen on the railroad in 10 hours. A derailment. A crew goes dead on hours. A locomotive takes a dive. A hill must be doubled. Now you've got a crew activated but nothing for them to do. You can see a situation where one crew dying on the law leads to another, then another, then another. The potential cost of this proposal is astronomical.
On the other hand, this would have a wonderful effect on crew quality-of-life and alertness. Every railroader has been in that situation where you're wondering whether to stay up or sleep. Without knowing when you'll be called, it's a flip of the coin. Sleep today and you risk not being tired enough to sleep tonight, then getting called in the morning, about the time you're ready to go down again. Stay up today and you risk being called tonight. How can you expect a human to be rested at work under these circumstances? The old "tough it out" attitude doesn't work, because the human body just doesn't work that way. Scientists continue to find out more about how essential sleep is to our well-being and daily functioning.
The most recent rest rules are a mess...both for the carriers and the employees covered by them. Just what you would expect from a knee jerk session of rule making.
I think somewhere along the line the concept was 8 hours rest before the 2 hour call. But the dickering came about 8 hours off duty or 8 hours sleep. And so it has continued.
10, even 12 hours is contenscious for many because sometimes that time is away from home and could mean more than one day, maybe 3 days away from home. A 6 hour trip then 10 or more hours off does not sit well if there would actually be a quick turn around to be home in less than a total of 12 hours. Management complains then the crew blows up somewhere, another crew and driver must be called, and the rairlroad may be tied up somewhere. There are lots of back and forth arguments here which have to be clarified and ironed out. Fatigue is a major safety and accident factor in all modes of transportation. But so is the away from home time. It has got to be worked out.
No. They are talking about a 10 hour call instead of the usual 2.
That would be hard to do. How about a 12 hour +/-6 hr "advanced call". That is, you'd get a call 12 hours ahead of the expected on duty time and then the final, 2 hr call that has to be within +/- 6 hrs of the 12 hr call on duty time. Example. Call at 2 PM for an estimated 2 AM on duty time, then a call at 10 PM for a midnight on duty time. This would allow adjustment based on how a train was moving over the road - ahead or behind schedule.
Thats the rule already...
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
WASHINGTON — United Transportation Union’s national legislative director has asked Congress to require 10 hours of uninterrupted rest time for train crews prior to going on duty...............
What say those here who work in the industry?
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