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The side of the rail said:

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:19 AM
I can just hear those loght rails saying to each other......Damn these trains are heavy.
BNSFrailfan.
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Posted by edblysard on Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:05 AM
Well, I tell you what...
You use the one on the right side, I'll use the one on the left.

If Mookie keeps looking over your shoulder, she can borrow yours!

Might find a yellow thingy after all!

Ed[:D]

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Posted by wabash1 on Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:42 AM
if you wasnt looking in the mirror you would have seen a yellow thingy..lol
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 10:11 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

The good side of posting to these boards is where it leads to, one can learn from them or one can sort through the flam looking for a morsel of valuable information. We get to have plenty of discussions with people that we would otherwise never share with and most likely, will never meet face to face.

The bad side is that we can sit and read these and tend to read into them more than was meant by the poster or less than was meant by the poster. We each have our own way of looking at things and interpeting things. Goodness was meant as an exclamation but not in an insulting sort of way. Guess I'll have to be more careful but I don't really buy into political correctness very well, don't think one should go about purposely insulting others but it's gone overboard. Howeve, I also know it's a requirement of present-day life if one carries on relationships with others in any form, also required for employment at most places, one must hold ones' tongue.

Enough of that, back to railroading.


Well, I walked considerably further today, with rail ID in mind , and by far the vast majority matched the earlier referance.

In short sections I spotted more Carnagie open hearth vintage 1943 and 1939, one length marked "CC" Tennessee 1948 (controlled cooling I guess) as well as a section 3 lengths long marked "CC" USS Illinois 1979, and another separate rail section 2 lengths long marked "CC" Beth Steelton 1979, that must be Bethlehem Steel... but easily 95% of all of it was the earlier mentioned 1940 vintage.

The 1943 surprised me most, being war/steel rationing years
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Posted by ValleyX on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:40 AM
The good side of posting to these boards is where it leads to, one can learn from them or one can sort through the flam looking for a morsel of valuable information. We get to have plenty of discussions with people that we would otherwise never share with and most likely, will never meet face to face.

The bad side is that we can sit and read these and tend to read into them more than was meant by the poster or less than was meant by the poster. We each have our own way of looking at things and interpeting things. Goodness was meant as an exclamation but not in an insulting sort of way. Guess I'll have to be more careful but I don't really buy into political correctness very well, don't think one should go about purposely insulting others but it's gone overboard. Howeve, I also know it's a requirement of present-day life if one carries on relationships with others in any form, also required for employment at most places, one must hold ones' tongue.

Enough of that, back to railroading.
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Posted by MP57313 on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 1:01 AM
Interesting discussion. In the southern LA county area the UP has replaced a lot of old SP/PE jointed rail with welded rail. This included some rarely-used branches! I'll check it out in the near future and see if someone can help me figure out the welded rails' "ancestry"

MP
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Wasn't trying to pick a fight, I was only trying to say what I believe to be true, unless that's a plug, I don't believe that piece of rail has been lying in that spot since 1940. I know that NS, CSX, and Conrail all took up mainlines and put them someplace else, signals too, for that matter. And for all I know, all that rail was used for passing tracks somewhere and yard tracks but I've read otherwise, wish I could cite that for verification. And I know that the welded rail on the mainlines wasn't all welded together in place.
This is a heavily trafficked mainline, was a mainline on the Wabash, a mainline on the N&W, and probably has seen more trains in the last five years since the Conrail acquisition than ever before. It was never a secondary main.
I've learned more about rail and its pedigree today than I've ever known, I was working from memory and years of riding across the stuff, some of the very rail under discussion.


Glad to hear it, neither was I..[;)]

It was just kinda freeky with others coming in saying "no need to fight" or talking about how agreeable I am or aren't, so in that context, looking back at your reply starting "goodness",...I was afraid I had somehow offended you totally unintentionally. Glad to hear I didn't, THAT is the important thing.[:)]
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Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:23 PM
Wasn't trying to pick a fight, I was only trying to say what I believe to be true, unless that's a plug, I don't believe that piece of rail has been lying in that spot since 1940. I know that NS, CSX, and Conrail all took up mainlines and put them someplace else, signals too, for that matter. And for all I know, all that rail was used for passing tracks somewhere and yard tracks but I've read otherwise, wish I could cite that for verification. And I know that the welded rail on the mainlines wasn't all welded together in place.
This is a heavily trafficked mainline, was a mainline on the Wabash, a mainline on the N&W, and probably has seen more trains in the last five years since the Conrail acquisition than ever before. It was never a secondary main.
I've learned more about rail and its pedigree today than I've ever known, I was working from memory and years of riding across the stuff, some of the very rail under discussion.
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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:04 PM
Dont be...
In fact, thats just what this forum is for, people asking "why is this...."

And, as you all seem to be adults, you quickly discovered each of you were reading different things into what was being discussed, and settled the matter like adults, with questions and explanations, instead of rudeness and hard feelings.

Wish we would see more of these type of questions here, it's getting kinda "dry".

Where's a "yellow thingies" question when you need one?

Ed[:D]

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:29 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

AntiGates-We don't disagree on everything. heh,heh.


Hey,...I was between a rock and a hard place, and confused...On one side MC was saying "thats not a good idea for a main" and on the otherside VX saying N\S would never do *that* and not be smart about it.

And on top of that saying "But they didn't"

I guess a better follow up question would have been "didn't what?" But to me that would have sounded patronizing, so I guessed, simply because I was trying to make sense out of what the both were telling me.

Just being frank, but the two lines of thinking SOUNDED mutually exclusive.

If trying to sort through that sounded like "fighting" then I'm sorry.

Sorry I even brought it up in fact.
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Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:09 PM
AntiGates-We don't disagree on everything. heh,heh.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:11 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Whoa folks:

(1) ValleyX, the proper term for using rail over and over at different locations and also turning int second hand CWR is "cascading"....Railroads do it commonly, but some rail with too much tonnage and wear goes straight to the scrapper - especially rail from mountain territory. (Some of that "Bethlehem" rail in the Tehachapis from the early 1990's went straight to the scrapper in less than 5 years because it was an unaceptable liability, and rightly so....)

(2) OH rail is not necessarilly bad, but past history shows that OH rail consistently failed (as in rail breaks and detector car defects found) faster than CC, VT (Vacuum Treated) or other methods between the hearth and the rolling mill. Service hardened OH rail is still out there in mainline service, but it is rare and getting rarer. Sounds like the main line this thing is in doesn't have that high a traffic density or tonnage expectation. (As in almost never sees a grail grinder)... OH rail will serve just fine in a yard for many years, CWR or jointed.

Railroads have human foibles just like the rest of the world. If there is the remains of a boutet weld on either side of that OH rail and it was used as a "plug" to relace a piece of broken rail and the OH was all there was for replacement at the time, oh well. If the OH got by the the inspectors at the rail plant and was flashbutt welded into the CWR string (less visible weld marks than a boutet weld), then it's uh-oh time. There is an art and a science to railroad engineering - You can't always look at things in absolutes. (News Flash: It's an imperfect world, bad things still unpredictably happen. You just try to minimize the risks where you can.)

Watch, learn & enjoy! No need to pick fights.


[;)][;)][;)]


I wasn't fighting..(??) I was learning[:D]
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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:07 PM
Whoa folks:

(1) ValleyX, the proper term for using rail over and over at different locations and also turning int second hand CWR is "cascading"....Railroads do it commonly, but some rail with too much tonnage and wear goes straight to the scrapper - especially rail from mountain territory. (Some of that "Bethlehem" rail in the Tehachapis from the early 1990's went straight to the scrapper in less than 5 years because it was an unaceptable liability, and rightly so....)

(2) OH rail is not necessarilly bad, but past history shows that OH rail consistently failed (as in rail breaks and detector car defects found) faster than CC, VT (Vacuum Treated) or other methods between the hearth and the rolling mill. Service hardened OH rail is still out there in mainline service, but it is rare and getting rarer. Sounds like the main line this thing is in doesn't have that high a traffic density or tonnage expectation. (As in almost never sees a grail grinder)... OH rail will serve just fine in a yard for many years, CWR or jointed.

Railroads have human foibles just like the rest of the world. If there is the remains of a boutet weld on either side of that OH rail and it was used as a "plug" to relace a piece of broken rail and the OH was all there was for replacement at the time, oh well. If the OH got by the the inspectors at the rail plant and was flashbutt welded into the CWR string (less visible weld marks than a boutet weld), then it's uh-oh time. There is an art and a science to railroad engineering - You can't always look at things in absolutes. (News Flash: It's an imperfect world, bad things still unpredictably happen. You just try to minimize the risks where you can.)

Watch, learn & enjoy! No need to pick fights.


[;)][;)][;)]
Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:36 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Goodness, I should have expanded and given the entire explanation, there's really no mystery. There's no doubt that you're seeing what you're seeing but that rail could have come from anywhere. That isn't the original rail that was laid THERE in 1940. When these railroads abandon lines, take up track and replace it with welded rail, or replace old rail with new, they weld it up and take it someplace else. N&W and Southern have abandoned a lot of railroad that had perfectly good rail, I recall seeing entire rail trains with trees and weeds growing up in it when they ripped up most of the Cloverleaf between Frankfort, IN, and St. Louis, rail that was bound for the welding plant in Atlanta. Somewhere, that rail is an NS mainline today. I would imagine that a lot of the old Maumee District west of Toledo and Gary District between Montpelier, OH, and Chicago are somewhere else today, too.


Oh, ok..It just seems peculiar to (inexperianced) me, that they would have putt "undesireable" rail down as part of a right of way improvement on a main line, if "open hearth" is really that undesireable.
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Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:27 PM
Goodness, I should have expanded and given the entire explanation, there's really no mystery. There's no doubt that you're seeing what you're seeing but that rail could have come from anywhere. That isn't the original rail that was laid THERE in 1940. When these railroads abandon lines, take up track and replace it with welded rail, or replace old rail with new, they weld it up and take it someplace else. N&W and Southern have abandoned a lot of railroad that had perfectly good rail, I recall seeing entire rail trains with trees and weeds growing up in it when they ripped up most of the Cloverleaf between Frankfort, IN, and St. Louis, rail that was bound for the welding plant in Atlanta. Somewhere, that rail is an NS mainline today. I would imagine that a lot of the old Maumee District west of Toledo and Gary District between Montpelier, OH, and Chicago are somewhere else today, too.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 12:17 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

But they didn't. I've never seen NS or N&W do that and not to be smart about it, I've been employed by them for 30 odd years, I think I know. IIRC, the vast majority of the welded rail that N&W put down in the Ft. Wayne area on both the former NKP and the Wabash came in the mid-seventies out of the welded rail plant in Bellevue. Of course, the New Castle District north of Muncie was rebuilt and upgraded during 1981-82.

Some of the earliest welded rail in the whole region was put down by the Nickel Plate at Millers City, OH, about fifty miles east of New Haven, in the very early sixties.


Then we have a mystery on our hands...I assure you the rail is there and says what it says...I couldn't have "fudged" it as I didn't even know what "OH" even meant till MudChicken pointed it out.

I'll walk a mile down the line and see if the numbers match up, maybe I just "lucked" into a quick and dirty spot repair job?
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Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:57 AM
But they didn't. I've never seen NS or N&W do that and not to be smart about it, I've been employed by them for 30 odd years, I think I know. IIRC, the vast majority of the welded rail that N&W put down in the Ft. Wayne area on both the former NKP and the Wabash came in the mid-seventies out of the welded rail plant in Bellevue. Of course, the New Castle District north of Muncie was rebuilt and upgraded during 1981-82.

Some of the earliest welded rail in the whole region was put down by the Nickel Plate at Millers City, OH, about fifty miles east of New Haven, in the very early sixties.
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:21 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

They didn't come and weld all those joints in place on that particular rail on that main. That rail came from someplace else and was put down as CWR (continuously welded rail). It may have been there long enough to come out of the rail welding plant that the N&W used to have in Bellevue, which was shut down a good number of years ago or it may have came from the rail welding plant that I understand is still somewhere in Atlanta, but I could be wrong


Very likely could be they did just that. Seems like I recall they welded the rail back in the late 60's, but I was just a kid then. I may have seen one "splice" and thought they were welding everything in place, you know how kids are when it comes to looking for detail.

Most of the welds look so smooth they are barely noticable, while some , still well done, are noticeably "fatter". and have unused bolt holes through the side of the rail.

Since MudChicken points out that open hearth rail is "out of place" on a mainline, would it be fair to speculate N&W decided to do the upgrade to welded rail on the cheap?
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Posted by ValleyX on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:20 AM
They didn't come and weld all those joints in place on that particular rail on that main. That rail came from someplace else and was put down as CWR (continuously welded rail). It may have been there long enough to come out of the rail welding plant that the N&W used to have in Bellevue, which was shut down a good number of years ago or it may have came from the rail welding plant that I understand is still somewhere in Atlanta, but I could be wrong
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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:46 AM
Every railroad approaches what they want out of rail and what they want the wheel contact pattern to look like. (Rail grinders do different things on different railroads.....and we won't go into some railroad's obsessions with "head free rail".... There also is a learning curve on each railroad that is formed by experience and hard lessons that dictates the curves and fillets in rail cross section. It wasn't that long ago that SP had problems with certain new Bethlehem 136# CWR that was great other places but prone to failure on SP, especially in the Tehachapis!

Flat plates are called tie plates and can be single or double shouldered plus have a multitude of different hole patterns to suit the different railroad chief engineers.

Railroads religiously kept tabs on heat numbers looking for pattern defects well into the nineties. One of my first jobs on the railroad was matching heat numbers, location and rail failure reports. The Santa Fe kept volumes of heat number books (6" thick binders) at every division and system office.
Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, July 19, 2004 10:22 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Branding of the rail:

131= 131 Lbs. per yard
28 = Suffix Design Variation No. 28 (AREA 3rd variant)
RE = AREA (now AREMA) profile & Standard Section..
OH = Open Hearth (Surprised to see that in a main line at this time, should be a sidetrack....subject to mill defects, occlusions, etc....usually CC, VT, BC and HH , HiSi...CC = Controlled Cooled came into its own after 1938 and became main line rail of choice)
Carnegie = Carnegie Steel/ Mill Brand
USA = US
1940 = Year 1940
1 = january

Now go read the stamped numbers on the other side of the rail to find that rail's pedigree(Heat number, rail letter, ingot/strand/bloom...method of hydrogen elimination




Wow dude! YOU are amazing....The main line in question is the former Wabash, checked both side by side mains for several "sections" just to see if all matched,.. they did. The flat plates they drive the spikes through were marked "R 1945" and these sections matched consistently across a bridge dated "1955"....

if memory serves, this main was at one time jointed rail, but somewhere over the interim they came along and welded and ground all the joints.

I'll have to go look tomorrow for the "pedigree" [:D]

Whats the driving logic behind the "suffix design variant"? topography, geology, economics?
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Posted by mudchicken on Monday, July 19, 2004 9:15 PM
Branding of the rail:

131= 131 Lbs. per yard
28 = Suffix Design Variation No. 28 (AREA 3rd variant)
RE = AREA (now AREMA) profile & Standard Section..
OH = Open Hearth (Surprised to see that in a main line at this time, should be a sidetrack....subject to mill defects, occlusions, etc....usually CC, VT, BC and HH , HiSi...CC = Controlled Cooled came into its own after 1938 and became main line rail of choice)
Carnegie = Carnegie Steel/ Mill Brand
USA = US
1940 = Year 1940
1 = january

Now go read the stamped numbers on the other side of the rail to find that rail's pedigree(Heat number, rail letter, ingot/strand/bloom...method of hydrogen elimination

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, July 19, 2004 8:43 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

13128 RE OH Carnagie USA 1940 I"

131 lb rail RE profile rail.
Rolled in the Carnegie works in January 1940.

Dave H.


Thanks for the additional input.
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Posted by dehusman on Monday, July 19, 2004 6:37 PM
13128 RE OH Carnagie USA 1940 I"

131 lb rail RE profile rail.
Rolled in the Carnegie works in January 1940.

Dave H.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, July 19, 2004 6:29 PM
This has nothging to do with this topic but, UPTrain, where did you get that little UP train animation? That is so cool.
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Posted by UPTRAIN on Monday, July 19, 2004 6:15 PM
I've seen 1911 and 1904 on sidings here, it works just as good, unless you get an SD90AC on it or something.

Pump

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, July 19, 2004 6:13 PM
That's incredible! 64 year old rail in mainline service and looking good...
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Posted by csxengineer98 on Monday, July 19, 2004 6:02 PM
yes, by carnagie steel corp...
csx engineer
"I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel
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The side of the rail said:
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, July 19, 2004 5:34 PM
"13128 RE OH Carnagie USA 1940 I"

What all does this tell? Does this really mean the date of manufacture was 1940?

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