State Rep. Scott Raecker, an Urbandale Republican who will be chairman the Iowa House Appropriations Committee, said he is reluctant to provide taxpayer money for passenger train service, especially because of a projected need for ongoing government subsidies to run the train in future years.
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110105/NEWS10/101050346/State-Republican-budget-could-halt-proposed-passenger-trains
Another state facing increased debt may not reopen the depot.
http://www.uiowa.edu/~iyws/Iowa%20City.htm http://www.iowadot.gov/iowarail/passenger/visionplan.htm
http://www.uiowa.edu/~iyws/Iowa%20City.htm
http://www.iowadot.gov/iowarail/passenger/visionplan.htm
Qustion:
1. did Iowa City vote heavy Democraqt in the last election?
2. If so is this an attempt to punish it and the "liberals" that attend college there?
3. The representative appears to be from near Des Moins so how do the people there feel about the future proposed expansion westward and is this a case of I won't get anything so you can't either?
Read this article yesterday from the Iowa City Press-Citizen. Somehow I think it'll get done but extending the Chicago - Dubuque service to Waterloo like they should may turn out to be a bridge too far.
C:\Documents and Settings\nag0019\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files\OLKAD\Rail supporters still confident about project press-citizen com Iowa City Press Citizen.htm
blue streak 1 Qustion: 1. did Iowa City vote heavy Democraqt in the last election? 2. If so is this an attempt to punish it and the "liberals" that attend college there? 3. The representative appears to be from near Des Moins so how do the people there feel about the future proposed expansion westward and is this a case of I won't get anything so you can't either?
Iowa City, like most any college town, is a heavily Democratic enviroment. I don't think the Representative cited above is intent on "punishing" Iowa City as much as I believe his attitude reflects a real difference in philosophy between the parties. Adding fuel to the fire, like many other states Iowa is trying to figure out how to plug a large hole in its finances.
Both the Iowa Governorship and the House changed control in the last election. The outgoing Governor, who was defeated in his bid for reelection, was a major supporter of Iowa City rail service; and it is possible there is an element of "if he was for it, we're against it" at work.
I don't think anyone seriously believed extension of the route as far as Des Moines was economically feasible, except perhaps the outgoing Governor, who is somewhat fiscally challenged.
.
A train from Chicago to the Quad Cities has been talked about for years. Illinois basically put this project together. The outgoing Governor of Iowa hopped aboard.
The Quad Cities are about 50 miles from Iowa City. Iowa City contains what some jokingly refer to as the University of Northeast Illinois at Iowa City. A large number of students at University of Iowa hail from the Chicago Metropolitan Area. Iowa City has been the principal point of advocacy for extending the run into Iowa.
Iowa is facing a budget short fall next year. The last election changed a lot faces in Des Moines. Fiscal restraint and responsibility was the prime mover of that change. Illinois' budget mess is a national news story.
Point at Illinois and scoff. Get elected in Iowa.Tough times is not the best of times to be bringing new projects online. This is especially true of items that will require ongoing tax subsidies.
To close Iowa's budget shortfall, a lot more than the Cornbelt Rocket is likely to be stripped from the cob. It is less politically painful to halt something people do not yet have than to take something back. So may go the Rocket.
Passenger rail service is not the business decision it was in the 19th century. This is not a political forum. When it comes to passenger rail, there is no way around discussing the political. I trust this has stayed on topic.
As states step in where Amtrak fears to tread, the fate of the Cornbelt Rocket may become an item of future study.
Johnson County, where Iowa City is located, is heavily Democratic. It's been jokingly referred to as the "People's Republic of Johnson County" by one newspaper political columnist.
Victrola is right, it's very hard not to discuss this without politics becoming involved. I've written, and deleted a few posts because I thought them to be too bias against a certain political party and some of their ideology. (I actually am a member of that party. After reading both major parties' planks this last election cycle, I should be an Independent.)
Bottom line, there are those who would NEVER support tax money for something that's going to be run by the Government and/or that they perceive should be done by private enterprise. No matter if there was no money in the till, or it was overflowing with cash and taxes were abolished.
My own personnel opinion. If Amtrak was somehow privatized, the players would change sides. Republicans would be more likely to support and funnel money to passenger rail projects. Maybe not all of them, but more than they do now. Democrats would then become against using tax money for passenger rail. They would see it as enriching the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.
With appologies to all,
Jeff
CEDAR RAPIDS – Additional jobs and some improved rail connections hang in the balance for one Iowa railroad as Gov. Terry Branstad considers whether to decline a federal transportation grant for Iowa City-to-Chicago rail passenger service.
http://thegazette.com/2011/01/22/branstads-amtrak-decision-to-affect-cedar-rapids-based-railroad/comment-page-1/#comment-1000371
The City Rapids Gazette of 1-22-11 interviewed Dennis Miller, President of the Cedar Rapids based Iowa Interstate Railroad. Mr. Miller's comments were sought on the Iowa City to Chicago passenger proposal.
Local commentary is visible following the article.
Rather than AMTRAK fielding the trains to the Quad Cities, how about just extending a Metra Line out a little farther? It would probably get done pretty quickly, especially if Iowa paid some to Illinois pols for their efforts(?)
Is passenger rail a social program? I don't think the students are amrooned as most of rthem probably have their own cars and my experience is that the bus companies already provide service to college towns. So this rail system is a way for the polititions to extend their power and influence.
samfp1943 Rather than AMTRAK fielding the trains to the Quad Cities, how about just extending a Metra Line out a little farther? It would probably get done pretty quickly, especially if Iowa paid some to Illinois pols for their efforts(?)
Amtrak is not fielding these trains, nor any new trains anywhere that I know of. These are state-owned passenger services marketed under the Amtrak label for the convenience of the passenger. Amtrak's role is to as a limited-service contract operator: it will provide the onboard train crew, sell the tickets, collect the fare. The states are the owner and operator. There is no cost savings or time savings using a commuter operator as the limited-service operator, but there are however some significant technical, legal, and cost disadvantages.
The Chicago-Iowa City Service is paid for -- capital cost and any operating and maintenance costs above and beyond farebox -- jointly by Illinois and Iowa according to the amount of mileage within each state. Iowa pays for Iowa's share; Illinois pays for Illinois's share. Amtrak is compensated for its services fully by the states, with absolutely no participation in cost by Amtrak.
This is all explained in any level of detail anyone could want on the Iowa DOT Rail website. There's both two-page factsheets for those who want the quick view, and somewhere around 10,000 pages of detailed design, planning, cost estimating, and operating information for those who want to have the identical level of knowledge that the states themselves have. Unfortunately, judging by the comments I've read on this passenger service and others (see the links Victrola nicely posted for us), approximately 0.0% of the public finds facts interesting, or uses facts as a basis of their opinions either for or against passenger-rail service.
RWM
creepycrank Is passenger rail a social program? I don't think the students are amrooned as most of rthem probably have their own cars and my experience is that the bus companies already provide service to college towns. So this rail system is a way for the polititions to extend their power and influence.
The Chicago-Iowa City service saves money and time for both the individual and the public compared to not building and operating the service, according to the economic and modal analysis on the Iowa DOT Rail website. The combined public-private return on investment is better than 3 to 1.
That said, there is no obligation for the voter to make "cost effectiveness" more important than say, entertainment value, safety, jobs created, environmental preservation, or anything else. Whether the taxpayer values reducing transportation costs and travel time, or improving safety, or decreasing public expenditures that are required to maintain other transportation modes, is a decision that is up to the public. The public can choose to tax itself and spend the money on almost anything it wishes. Rarely is cost-effectiveness even assessed for public expenditures, which might mean that for most voters, it's not too important.
[quote user="Railway Man"]
creepycrank: Is passenger rail a social program? I don't think the students are amrooned as most of rthem probably have their own cars and my experience is that the bus companies already provide service to college towns. So this rail system is a way for the polititions to extend their power and influence.
If it will make money let Iowa City pay for and leave rthe rest of the state out of it. After all it looks like out of staters will be the only ones using it and I don't think they will use it every day.
Railway Man samfp1943: Rather than AMTRAK fielding the trains to the Quad Cities, how about just extending a Metra Line out a little farther? It would probably get done pretty quickly, especially if Iowa paid some to Illinois pols for their efforts(?) Unfortunately, judging by the comments I've read on this passenger service and others (see the links Victrola nicely posted for us), approximately 0.0% of the public finds facts interesting, or uses facts as a basis of their opinions either for or against passenger-rail service. RWM
samfp1943: Rather than AMTRAK fielding the trains to the Quad Cities, how about just extending a Metra Line out a little farther? It would probably get done pretty quickly, especially if Iowa paid some to Illinois pols for their efforts(?)
Unfortunately, judging by the comments I've read on this passenger service and others (see the links Victrola nicely posted for us), approximately 0.0% of the public finds facts interesting, or uses facts as a basis of their opinions either for or against passenger-rail service.
Unfortunately, RWM, facts are not much appreciated in this passenger rail forum, either. You have the usual snide remarks about Illinois politicians above and disparaging comments on a purely state-paid-for-service, by someone from Washington state, which last time I checked, has a totally paid for by Amtrak train (the Empire Builder) which has no economic justification. It may well be that some of the ridership of the Iowa City extension would be from Illinois, since 54% of the U of Iowa's freshmen are out of state, the majority from Illinois. I know the in-state Iowa students appreciates all that higher tuition money, because it allows them to have the lowest tuition of any Big 10 school!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
OK, as a reporter/photographer working for a pair of Johnson County (Iowa) newspapers, and having attended update meetings and the big check delivery...I'll jump into this conversation. Oh, the "big check" was when Ray LaHood showed up with a large blow-up of a check for the Fed's grant for the project.
Incidentally, it was originally to be named "The Chicago Flyer." Good 'ol Guv. Chet Culver re-named it "the Green Line" as it was gonna be the most environmentally friendly thing on rails: powered by bio-fuels, solar panels to power the trackside signals, soybean oil based lubricants, green, green, green. 'Ol Chet also hooted and tooted about all the University of Iowa students who would be just jumping for joy at having the train to go home each weekend. Everybody and their cousin will want on board to go to Chicago for the day...and of course, all those bored Chicagoans, with nothing better to do will jump at the chance to come to...Iowa City.
Better known as "The Demokratik Peoples' Republik of Iowa City." The Berkley of Iowa.
My very liberal editor ran Chet's numbers...and even she thought he was full of BS. She at first thought I had misquoted him, or was exaggerating them for my own politics. Then she listened to the tape of him speaking.
Promoters claim all sorts of "jobs created" for the upgrade of the IAIS line. I suspect an outfit, from out of state, such as RJ Corman will get that job. IF supporters get the original downtown Iowa City depot, I suppose a local contractor might get the bid to reconfigure it for Amtrak use...but I doubt very many jobs will be "created" by this. Yes, there will be some track work needed in the Iowa City yard to turn/store the "train set." Yes, some bodies will be needed to crew the trains (2 sets). But "hundreds of jobs"???
Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Don't think so.
I've said all along that the "biggest winner" in this whole mess will be the IAIS. Think about it, they'll get their line improved to handle 79 mph passenger runs, on the taxpayer's dime. What a bargain! As each chunk gets improved, their ability to compete with big-boys UP and BNSF will also improve. Already, the new connection with the BNSF at Wyanett, IL is a big plus for the IAIS. I'll bet the marketing dept. has already figured out a way to factor that into customer routings into and out of Chicago.
Bottom line though, for all of the supposed "benefits" of such a passenger rail program; we (Iowans) just can't afford this.The Repubs have all sorts of programs and projects on the chopping block...not just Amtrak service to Iowa City and maybe eventually beyond. Somebody suggested maybe it was a move out of spite, out of "Chet was for it, we're automatically against it." I don't buy that. Good time Chet botched-up the budget big-time...now it's time to put things right. And that's going to mean cutting a lot of things, some "nice-to-have," from the budget.
IF it's such a wonderful idea, then why wouldn't the IAIS grab up some passenger cars and provide the service themselves? They already do a little bit of passenger moving, from Coralville a few miles to the Hawkeye football games. If there is going to be so much demand to ride "the big green weenie," then wouldn't that be a cash cow for the IAIS??? Why shuffle the train schedule to work around Amtrak? Why let Amtrak have all the riders and the bucks? Why not get in on that action themselves???
Because like many (note: I did not say "all" or even "most") Amtrak routes, it'll need subsidizing every year. It will not have the ridership Big Lug Chet boasted of. Oh sure, it'll be popular when it first starts up (if they don't get it killed-off), but then the novelty will wear off. And the ridership will drop off.
Oh, and I've got all the "fact sheets," even a copy of the grant proposal. I've seen the numbers. I think they're full of crap...or smokin' something really good.
Just my half-a-cent's worth of opinion on the matter from covering this story for 2 years.
Chris
www.soloneconomist.com
www.northlibertyleader.com
The Cedar cRapids Industrial Branch: Proudly Shipping Yesterday's CrunchBerries Tomorrow!
If the state governments consistantly applied the condition that no state taxpayer money be spent on the operation of any transportation infrastructure, even when built with federal government money, I don't think we would have any highways.
I can understand why the forecasts for job growth that are often part of transportation infrastructure plans are viewed with a great deal of skepticism. I suspect that only a very small percentage of the voting public understands how these things produce "public" benefits. Most assume that the only benefits are derived by the users of the service and those who work directly to provide the service. That is not usually the case, however given that given the absence of a direct "hard cash" benefit to any given member of the general public it is not surprising that the numbers are viewed with disbelief.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
I guess Chris is an example of the so-called "liberal" media! Talk about having an agenda and contempt for anyone holding contrary views.
schlimm I guess Chris is an example of the so-called "liberal" media! Talk about having an agenda and contempt for anyone holding contrary views.
Schlimm, I would at least give Chris credit for being on the ground during all the "Corn Belt Rocket" excitement, and for having a better chance than most of us at getting it right.
I was on the ground in Iowa City in the first half of the 1960s and watched the Rock Island's conscientious service abandoned by riders. Granted, I haven't lived there in 45 years; but I get back often, and nothing I've seen of today's affluent college students leads me to believe there's a passenger bonanza waiting to be tapped.
Believe it: The kids have all got cars. Even the old holiday-season "payoff" -- when the Rock got to muster extra equipment and otherwise move heaven and Earth to transport all us obnoxious, beer-swilling students -- wouldn't be what it used to be.
You may be right, Fred, about today's students. Certainly the beer-swilling hasn't changed. I rode those IC student specials from Champaign back up to Chicago in the mid-60's. But if they are at all like the ones at UIUC, I bet a lot still don't have cars, or would prefer to ride & drink.
It seems like the only form of passenger transportation in Iowa is the Hawkeye Express and the California Zephyr
http://www.iowanorthern.com/hawkeye/
I note that Amana-Medic doesn't believe the ridership estimates for the Chicago-Iowa City service. There's good reason to be skeptical of some ridership estimates. At various times, some passenger-rail advocates have promulgated some optimistic estimates. Thus, it's worthwhile to look for actual results of similar service(s) and see how they compare to a proposed service. Here's a couple:
Chicago to Carbondale (Illini/Saluki):
Chicago to Quincy (Illinois Zephyr/Carl Sandberg)
Chicago to Iowa City (proposed)
I'm interested to hear reasons why the Chicago-Iowa City estimated ridership may be too high. That is, what is unique about the population and travel patterns of the Quad Cities and Iowa City that would make their ridership less likely to ride a train, and drop their numbers below the four Illinois Service trains, which are drawing from a smaller population base.
AmanaMedic Promoters claim all sorts of "jobs created" for the upgrade of the IAIS line. I suspect an outfit, from out of state, such as RJ Corman will get that job. IF supporters get the original downtown Iowa City depot, I suppose a local contractor might get the bid to reconfigure it for Amtrak use...but I doubt very many jobs will be "created" by this. Yes, there will be some track work needed in the Iowa City yard to turn/store the "train set." Yes, some bodies will be needed to crew the trains (2 sets). But "hundreds of jobs"???
Fair questions. Jobs creation is a formula based on the money that's spent for the type of activity on which the money is spent. There is very good history in rail construction as to the number of jobs created for the dollar spent, for each activity, e.g., track, signal, earthmoving, etc. This history is created by the railroads themselves, who have tracked for more than 150 years how much labor, material, etc., is required for each job. It breaks down to a very fine level. For example, if I want to know how much labor is required to install a CTC control point at the end of a siding, I can look it up in Excel sheets, select from about 1,000 options (no kidding) that cover almost every possible permutation of the control point, and the sheet will output the manhours required. These are checked at the end of each project against actual labor and material costs, and if there's variation, there is either someone called on the carpet, or, adjustment made to the formulas. Thus I'm comfortable with the number of jobs created. Unless there is a mammoth cost savings in the project (which can come only from not building something), there is no way to diminish the amount of labor expended.
As to whether the jobs will be in-state or out-of-state, again, there is ample history to make this determination. Because federal money is being spent, "prevailing wage" rules apply. That means that the contractors will prefer to use local labor off the bench, rather than import out-of-state labor, because they can avoid away-from-home costs. There is no way for a contractor to save by using out-of-state labor.
One reason for believing ridership from/to Iowa City might not be comparable to Champaign is the economic status of the presumed student riders. Yearly tutition for an Illinois resident at Illinois is $10,368. Yearly tutition at the U of Iowa for an Illinois (non-football player) resident is $23,712. One might infer from that difference that the Illinois students at Iowa tend to have greater economic means than do the U of Illinois students. From that, it is a short jump to believe that auto ownership is higher at Iowa. Since one auto can transport several students, the effect is enhanced.
interesting thought. Has anyone seen any statistics to back up that hypothesis?
But what about Quad Cities ridership?
Another (belated) thought on Iowa City student ridership.
When I was at U if I 45 years ago, Illinois students -- certainly Chicago students -- were not frequent commuters. Usually they preferred their party or Hawkeye weekends to catching up with Mom & Pop.
Just saw the news clip that new Iowa Governor Terry Branstad is set to turn down the federal money that would have launched the new service. So now, it won't happen at all.
Freaking fabulous. Nice going by my home state. I am truly ashamed to say I hail from the WONDERFUL state of Iowa.
Backers of the plan to bring passenger rail service to Iowa City are cautiously optimistic about gaining Gov. Terry Branstad’s longterm support for the project, based on what they’re hearing from the governor’s fellow Republicans.
http://thegazette.com/2011/01/24/state-iowa-city-rail-backers-await-funding-announcement-2/
Is optimism unwarranted?
Gov. Terry Branstad said Monday he's troubled by the prospect of ongoing taxpayer subsidies for a proposed Iowa City-to-Chicago passenger train and wants to see if alternative funding is available.
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110125/NEWS10/101250352/Ongoing-rail-subsidy-questioned
Railway Man I note that Amana-Medic doesn't believe the ridership estimates for the Chicago-Iowa City service. There's good reason to be skeptical of some ridership estimates. At various times, some passenger-rail advocates have promulgated some optimistic estimates. Thus, it's worthwhile to look for actual results of similar service(s) and see how they compare to a proposed service. Here's a couple: Chicago to Carbondale (Illini/Saluki): FY2010 Ridership 264,934 Average annual growth last 4 years: 3.7% Roundtrips per day: 2 Major stations and distance from Chicago: Champaign/Urbana, 129; Carbondale, 309 Population of destination cities: 226,000, 58,000 Chicago to Quincy (Illinois Zephyr/Carl Sandberg) FY 2010 ridership: 209,466 Average annual growth last 4 years: 5.5% Roundtrips per day: 2 Major stations and distances from Chicago: Galesburg, 162; Quincy, 258 Population of destination cities: 69,000; 77,000 Chicago to Iowa City (proposed) FY2015 ridership: 246,800 (estimated) Average annual growth estimated: 1.5% Roundtrips per day: 2 Major stations and distances from Chicago: Quad Cities, 174; Iowa City, 221 Population of destination cities: 379,000; 152,000 I'm interested to hear reasons why the Chicago-Iowa City estimated ridership may be too high. That is, what is unique about the population and travel patterns of the Quad Cities and Iowa City that would make their ridership less likely to ride a train, and drop their numbers below the four Illinois Service trains, which are drawing from a smaller population base. RWM
I have yet to see anyone (including Gov. Branstead) show either hard data or logical reasoning in answer to Railwayman's query as to why the estimates for Chi- Iowa City ridership are high compared to the two similar college routes in Illinois. In addition, the Chi-STL service includes yet another large college town with significant traffic: Bloomington/Normal 209,629 boardings + alightings. In spite of all the claims that Uni Iowa students from Illinois are somehow "different" than Illinois students who stay in-state, based on years of contact with Illinoisans attending all of the relevant institutions, I doubt that is true. Also overlooked is the fact that many faculty travel to/from Chicago for professional reasons.
do those other lines turn a profit or are they state supported?
From all of the discussions involving college students, you'ld think the only people riding these trains are connected to the universities. You don't suppose that maybe other people, with no connections at all to these places of higher education may also be riding them? You don't suppose that maybe, just maybe, someone from Cedar Rapids or the surrounding area might go to Iowa City and use the train?
Speaking of Berkley, there actually is a Berkley, Iowa. It's the remnant of a coal mining town in Boone County, about 5 or 6 miles south of Ogden. It was on the M&StL's original main line, what was called the "Mud Line." The trackage was abandoned in the middle 1930s. The depot still exsists. It was moved to a spot about 2 miles east of Ogden, where the local historical society has a couple of other buildings that have been or are being restored. If anyone visited the Kate Shelley High Bridge, following the directions on the west side from US 30, you went right past it. It sits behind a small church about a mile north of 30.
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