Stevens Point is one of my favorite places to railfan due to the many trains (30+) that operate in the area, from the yard jobs, numerous locals, and lots of through trains. I have yet to see a special agent around, although I've heard about them. Most of the time, I make a point to act as "un-terrorist-like" as possible, i.e bright colored shirt or jacket, waving and smiling to the crews as they go by, reading my latest Trains issue, and always staying on public property.
Despite my efforts, I have encountered some railfan-unfriendly employees. In one instance, I was photographing a local switch-job at one of the area paper mills on a really nasty, rainy day. The tracks run right next to several public roads and crossings at the mill, so I was fairly close to the action. One of the switchmen, who wasn't enjoying his job at the moment, made several comments about how I should "get a life" or "find a real job", etc. I was going to inform him that railfans exist, etc., but decided against it (I didn't want to give him anymore reasons to dislike me. I've found that waving and smiling helps alot, but some employees just ignore me and look the other way...which is fine with me!!!!!!
Also, once when I was waiting for a train trackside at Amherst Jct. (east of Point) at a public crossing, I had a sheriff pull up and ask what I was doing. I politely told him, and showed him some the pictures I have on my camera to help describe what I was doing (he had no clue what railfanning was). He was fine with that, but just advised me to move a little further back from the tracks because CN would probably "call me in" to the police office, and if I was definitely on public property (near the road) I would be fine. He told me a story of an old lady and her grandson who were picking blackberries near the tracks (not sure on CN property or not), and CN wanted them arrested.
Pretty interesting stuff! I can't believe CN, and other railroads, doesn't realize the invaluable asset that is railfans. If they had programs, like I think BNSF does, to register railfans and give them an ID card or something, it would make their railroads safer and make them many new friends and free PR representatives, and all we would have to do if a police officer or employee questions us is show them our Official CN Railfan ID and that would answer all their questions! Just a thought!
As for me, I'll continue to smile, wave, and act as far from a unlike a terrorist as possible trackside!
The Forces of Fear & Nimby did not win today.
Dan
CNW 6000 Time to go sit by Neenah and see if I get questioned today.
Time to go sit by Neenah and see if I get questioned today.
If we don't see you by tomorrow, we'll start passing the hat around to raise your bail.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I've heard Stevens Point is railfan un-friendly, and Shops (NFDL) too...but I've never been bothered at either place. Maybe time to add another 'caution' spot to the list.
I do know in my area two "Foremen" have "CN Special Agent" badges and their hy-rail trucks are equipped with red/blue lights in addition to the 'standard' orange strobe, but you have to look closely-they're dash and grille mounted!. I was tailgating over the summer near Neenah Yard and both gents walked over after seeing me cooking my burgers ( I was on public property) and we chatted while I made 'em a nice lunch. I asked about some of the recent signage that said CN Railroad Police and that I hadn't ever seen a CN cop. They smiled at each other and said "Well now you've seen two of us" and showed me their badges.
route_rock I have asked when we are putting up 40 foot high walls to keep pitures from being taken. I get the same dumb look. No I am not reporting everyone with a camera along our line. I have "common sense" if you look out of place, your getting called on. If your a run of the mill Railfan Ill wave. Some of the guys who are gung ho about this scare me.Even in a hi vis vest as a new guy I have had some ask " Who are you ? Do you know your on RR property?" Ummm yeah I am the guy running that train over there. " oh well we were not sure." You mean my growly attitude at 3 am with a handful of paperwoirk my bag safety glasses and a hi vis vest didnt give it away?SOme people have a complex of "if not me then who" While it is good that they are on alert the over zealous nature is a bit annoying.
I have asked when we are putting up 40 foot high walls to keep pitures from being taken. I get the same dumb look. No I am not reporting everyone with a camera along our line. I have "common sense" if you look out of place, your getting called on. If your a run of the mill Railfan Ill wave.
Some of the guys who are gung ho about this scare me.Even in a hi vis vest as a new guy I have had some ask " Who are you ? Do you know your on RR property?" Ummm yeah I am the guy running that train over there. " oh well we were not sure." You mean my growly attitude at 3 am with a handful of paperwoirk my bag safety glasses and a hi vis vest didnt give it away?SOme people have a complex of "if not me then who" While it is good that they are on alert the over zealous nature is a bit annoying.
Some years back, a lady named SUSAN Powter used to shout "STOP THE INSANIT!" [It was part of her weight loss Stick.] It makes sense in our current PC Society nowadays.
It seems we are now living in a Monty Python World. Where the over zealousness is the norm, and a high school diploma, creates a proctologist in training. . Pilots and Stewardess' are x-rayed and patted down,their bags are checked because they may be 'on suicide missions' (Atlanta to Memphis and back) to blow up their own planes (and jobs). Check that nun, she may be a terrorist (ask her third grade class for confirmation). The lady in the Burqa , can't check her (religious exemption), be sure and not profile her either, can't violate HER rightas. Stop Granny over there looks like a potential problem, and that toddler shes totin is sure to be hiding a load in his britches,
Where a Gov't agency spends Billions, and hires Thousands(76+) to make sure Moslem Bombers do not blow up our airplanes between Allentown and Azuza, or Washington and Wisconsin; while the Government ignores a war on our Southern Border, seemingly welcoming all comers, armed or no, all we ask is for them to vote and vote often.
Next it will some other form of transportaton or the Security dudes and dudettes at the local shopping malls will be where the 'sultans of grope' hang out to make you and me secure. The only people they don't check are the ones in a bernuse or a burqa, 'cause it would violate their 'religious rights.'
I guess I agree with Max and Route_rock we seem to be on a merry go round that is just spinning faster toward insanity. John Cleese must have been on to something,
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
Soo 6604 [snip] Does a private entity have any legal rights to monitor public property . . .
Generally, yes - there's no reasonable expectation of 'privacy' on public property; otherwise, how could people in New York City skyscrapers look out their windows at other people going by on the street ?
Soo 6604 . . . and enforce their own laws (no taking pics of equipment) on public property?
Generally, no - public property / streets are for the free passage and legal use by all, and they can see and photograph whatever they can see from there.
Public property is kind of a 2-edged sword in this instance - anyone can gawk at you, but you can gawk right back at them.
- Paul North.
(We need to come up with a nominal prize of some kind for the first person who gets hassled for ostentatiously taking a photo of the light tower security cameras - such as by zooming in on it as it is zooming in on you, and/ or 'saluting' it in a certain derogatory single-fingered manner, and/ or holding up a small sign that says something like "Whatcha watching, buddy ?" . . . )
Mr. Railman Wait what????? that's newly painted???? cool beans
Wait what????? that's newly painted???? cool beans
It was repainted in early 2000. We had sent her out for wheel work in June. She just got back.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Isn't is kinda ironic that the people on the bridge were (assuming) taking pics of private property while the private property was taking (watching) pics of the people on public property? Does a private entity have any legal rights to monitor public property and enforce their own laws (no taking pics of equipment) on public property?
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
selector In some jurisdictions there is simple trespass and criminal trespass. A citizen who is not also the owner can do what he needs to do to evict someone trespassing on property where he is an agent, but the law specifies what he/she can do. Ordering the trespasser to surrender property on his person is not among those options. Taking the camera by force would have been a chargeable offense...common assault to aggravated assault...again, depending on force and implements/weapons and legality. If I were standing on public property and taking images of something happening in full view, and an agent of the organization being imaged demanded that I surrender my photographic equipment, I'd smile and politely ask him if he had been sneaking some wacky terbacky around back of the shed on his break. But, no, I would not willfully surrender it to him. Crandell Interesitng...something like that happened to me in Ottawa a few months back. I was taking pictures at the bus station when a station official approached me and told me to stop taking pictures..He then demanded I hand over my camera for inspection...I told him off and continued to photograph..even got a few shots of him.. We're not a police state (yet)..Really...what can they do?
In some jurisdictions there is simple trespass and criminal trespass. A citizen who is not also the owner can do what he needs to do to evict someone trespassing on property where he is an agent, but the law specifies what he/she can do. Ordering the trespasser to surrender property on his person is not among those options. Taking the camera by force would have been a chargeable offense...common assault to aggravated assault...again, depending on force and implements/weapons and legality.
If I were standing on public property and taking images of something happening in full view, and an agent of the organization being imaged demanded that I surrender my photographic equipment, I'd smile and politely ask him if he had been sneaking some wacky terbacky around back of the shed on his break. But, no, I would not willfully surrender it to him.
Crandell
Interesitng...something like that happened to me in Ottawa a few months back. I was taking pictures at the bus station when a station official approached me and told me to stop taking pictures..He then demanded I hand over my camera for inspection...I told him off and continued to photograph..even got a few shots of him.. We're not a police state (yet)..Really...what can they do?
I can't speak to CN/DMIR practices and procedures, however, my carrier has been stressing a program of the 3 R's....Recognize, Record, Report.
Recognize things that appear out of the norm....suspicious people or vehicles in locations on or about the property.
Record the description of the suspicious people or vehicles
Report the observation to the carriers Police command center
Additionally, the state highway administration on their remote controlled highway sign boards are repeatedly soliciting reporting of suspicious activity
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BNSF & DMIR 4Ever [snip; emphasis added - PDN] I'm not an expert on suicide via bridge, but the one overlooking Proctor Yard would be more of a hassle, I would think. On top of the regular bridge, there's fencing on both sides extending about five feet above the barrier(if that makes sense). [emphasis added - PDN] Apparently, someone likes their new toys. The bridge in question is in no way owned by CN, and is a county road. [snip] [snip] I would have to think, though, that after a certain amount of these types of run-ins, the local authorities are going to get tired of being called out to essentially nothing.
[emphasis added - PDN] Apparently, someone likes their new toys. The bridge in question is in no way owned by CN, and is a county road. [snip]
[snip] I would have to think, though, that after a certain amount of these types of run-ins, the local authorities are going to get tired of being called out to essentially nothing.
Ahh - now this starts to make more sense, in its own odd way - I think you've put the pieces together into a coherent pattern, and have about 'nailed it', esp. your last sentence. It may turn out to be a kind of battle of attrition or a contest of wills between the railfans and some petty tyrant at CN's yard, with the local cops being caught in the middle. Yet another reason - when in doubt, call the cops. Also, that way there's an official report on file in case it ever turns into something else or more (see last week's episode 419 of Nov. 12, 2010 of NPR's/ Chicago Public Media and WBEZ's This American Life titled "Petty Tyrant" about the abuses by Schenectady, NY school official Steve Raucci, at - http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/419/petty-tyrant - unbelievable !)
Paul_D_North_Jr What did the cops say ? What happened then ? The signal maintainer might have enough authority for a "citizen's arrest" - at least on CN property, the same as any other citizen who witnesses a trespass-type crime occurring - which is highly dependent on the particular laws of each specific state/ jurisdiction - and as least as far as the cops are concerned, as a matter of criminal law and procedure. However, an underling assuming such authority might not sit so well with CN's management, unless it has issued a memo or other orders to the effect of that's what signal maintainers are supposed to do. But if you think about it a little, signal maintainers might often encounter vandals and copper wire thieves, so they might very well have been authorized to do that, pending the arrival of either a railroad or governmental policeman. I don't see where that authority extends to the signal maintainer having the right to confiscate the camera in a normal property trespass case - one without Homeland Security or industrial espionage aspects. If that happened to me, I'd insist that he call the cops before giving up the camera. But even then, I don't see the damages as being much more than the lost value of the camera and any images in it. Where or what is any further harm or loss, other than embarassment, which might even be self-inflicted if you were trespassing ? No medical expenses, no lost wages, no publicity - it's all speculative. Even if the signal maintainer detained you against your will off CN's property for a few minutes to an hour or so - which is totally illegal as a kind of 'false imprisonment', and is another instance where I'd insist that the cops be callled as well - there would be grounds for a civil lawsuit, but the provable damages would be so minimal that you'd have a hard time finding a lawyer to take the case. Hopefully none of us will have to experience any of this the hard way. - Paul North.
What did the cops say ? What happened then ?
The signal maintainer might have enough authority for a "citizen's arrest" - at least on CN property, the same as any other citizen who witnesses a trespass-type crime occurring - which is highly dependent on the particular laws of each specific state/ jurisdiction - and as least as far as the cops are concerned, as a matter of criminal law and procedure. However, an underling assuming such authority might not sit so well with CN's management, unless it has issued a memo or other orders to the effect of that's what signal maintainers are supposed to do. But if you think about it a little, signal maintainers might often encounter vandals and copper wire thieves, so they might very well have been authorized to do that, pending the arrival of either a railroad or governmental policeman.
I don't see where that authority extends to the signal maintainer having the right to confiscate the camera in a normal property trespass case - one without Homeland Security or industrial espionage aspects. If that happened to me, I'd insist that he call the cops before giving up the camera. But even then, I don't see the damages as being much more than the lost value of the camera and any images in it. Where or what is any further harm or loss, other than embarassment, which might even be self-inflicted if you were trespassing ? No medical expenses, no lost wages, no publicity - it's all speculative. Even if the signal maintainer detained you against your will off CN's property for a few minutes to an hour or so - which is totally illegal as a kind of 'false imprisonment', and is another instance where I'd insist that the cops be callled as well - there would be grounds for a civil lawsuit, but the provable damages would be so minimal that you'd have a hard time finding a lawyer to take the case.
Hopefully none of us will have to experience any of this the hard way.
I can't speak personally for coborn, but these two incidents are in addition to another incident earlier this week. According to that person, the officer who stopped by said that CN called in a possible bridge jumper. I'm not an expert on suicide via bridge, but the one overlooking Proctor Yard would be more of a hassle, I would think. On top of the regular bridge, there's fencing on both sides extending about five feet above the barrier(if that makes sense).
CN recently put up some new light poles in the yard, and equipped them with new cameras. Apparently, someone likes their new toys. The bridge in question is in no way owned by CN, and is a county road. Furthermore, I can guarantee that no one has the authority to confiscate cameras and other related gear.
As someone who has fanned up their in the past, it's a bit of a confusing turn of events, given that CN hasn't been this aggressive in the past, aside from an incident a few months back on the northern end of the Range. I would have to think, though, that after a certain amount of these types of run-ins, the local authorities are going to get tired of being called out to essentially nothing.
Pretty much. About 4 squads pulled up after CN called them and talked to the man on the bridge with his son, and the the guy with me.
coborn35On another note, after spotting a railfan and young son on a public bridge and turning them in to the cops using a security camera, today we were told today by a signal maintainer on the CN at Proctor that he had been instructed to "take your cameras and write down your license plate number" and told us to leave as I was getting a few pictures of the diesel house, way back from the " No Unescorted Visitors Beyond Here" signs. I laughed, told him I would leave and did. The funny thing is when I talked to the crew members I know on CN, they just laugh and don't know what is going on nowadays with their company and the rouge signal maintainers. CN is going to be hurting big time if they are telling their crews to confiscate cameras. That lawsuit will be big.
I don't understand the above paragraph. The railfan and his son were on a public bridge, and they were turned in? And you were way back from the sign and they gave you trouble, too? So, you were both on public property and CN was issuing a threat?
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
Signal maintainers have no law enforcement authority other than telling someone that they are trespassing and asking them to leave. If one ever tries to confiscate someone's camera, they and the railroad could be in for a very hard time in court.
LSRM's SD-18 #193 is finally back from wheel work, and I got quite the treattoday when they happened to tie down the #403 right next to her! Note the dieselhouse sign.http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=345578&nseq=0Ask me how mad I was that the CN engine had to be parked right there...
On another note, after the CN has earlier spotted a railfan and young son on a public bridge and turnied them in to the cops using a security camera, today we were told today by a signal maintainer on the CN at Proctor that he had been instructed to "take your cameras and write down your license plate number" and told us to leave as I was getting a few pictures of the diesel house, way back from the " No Unescorted Visitors Beyond Here" signs. I laughed, told him I would leave and did. The funny thing is when I talked to the crew members I know on CN, they just laugh and don't know what is going on nowadays with their company and the rouge signal maintainers. CN is going to be hurting big time if they are telling their crews to confiscate cameras. That lawsuit will be big.
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