CSX demise?

[daveklepper]

NS is, I understand, running some freights over Amtrack's NE Corridor at nights when the capacity is there. i'm sure it is profitable for both Amtrak and NS. If CSX as capacity problems, why don't they do the same? Or are their capacity problems where the disused the old SAL line south of Petersburg and then singled-tracked part of the remaining ACL line? I f they did both, a very dumb move indeed! I know they did away with the SAL's Hamlet Yard, which was one of the most efficient hump yards anywhere. Or may it is just a small flat yard now.

[Anonymous]

heres another example of CSX removing something they could have used:
In 1986/1987, CSX removed what was for at least a few years (1912) the largest B&O yard. they replaces a 50 track section, with 20 tracks, and left another 3 mile section as field (Which it remains still). Now, the line gets blocked up when trains stop on the main for crew changes or yard setouts. I herd a while back they were going to rebuild the field, but plans have sice been made to construct a contractor-only 84 lumber with a spur (Which would further clog the main).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Actually, the NKP was merged into the N&W and the Wabash was leased. Later, after Norfolk Soutern came in, the Wabash was absorbed into NS.

[tup][bow][bow][bow]Clarity is so refreshing on such a matter[bow][bow][bow][tup]

Clarity...we don't need no stinkin' clarity mixing reality to our opinions!

Yeah that does mix it up a bit, but I really do like a good mixed drink[:D][yeah]

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by piouslion

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Actually, the NKP was merged into the N&W and the Wabash was leased. Later, after Norfolk Soutern came in, the Wabash was absorbed into NS.

[tup][bow][bow][bow]Clarity is so refreshing on such a matter[bow][bow][bow][tup]

Clarity...we don't need no stinkin' clarity mixing reality to our opinions!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Actually, the NKP was merged into the N&W and the Wabash was leased. Later, after Norfolk Soutern came in, the Wabash was absorbed into NS.

[tup][bow][bow][bow]Clarity is so refreshing on such a matter[bow][bow][bow][tup]

[ValleyX]

Actually, the NKP was merged into the N&W and the Wabash was leased. Later, after Norfolk Soutern came in, the Wabash was absorbed into NS.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route_rock

Back to the west of Chicago deal 1983 numbers for you B&O is paying $2,025,000 annual rent with an option to buy.This lease is 50 years long.It covers joliet west and has no mention of Peoria(which isnt owned by CSX but by IAIS) Thats a lot of cash every year ok.Maybe they dont own it but here is a lesson in semantics then.The NKP is not owned by NS cause it entered into a 99 year lease with N&W.Face it they own it.If I am moving 2 million in my money to it and maintaining tracks(well upgrading the hell out of them)and I sign on for 50 years then I will say I own the line.Semantics is all it is and it is no excuse for people to say we own/run/have anything to do with that line?Ptt I think some foamers would make great rail bosses look at John Bromley [:-^] better yet Mr Barriger even. Shall I go on?You can be a worker and a fan and yes even bean counters are railroaders(but who takes pics of people counting beans?)Face it these people want pics of trains and th people that run them be thankful we have a lobbying group that actually cares about us.Someday maybe one will help you out (but I doubt it if they recognize you from your postings[:D][(-D][(-D][:-,][}:)][soapbox] be safe all.

Foamers, Semantics and point of view are all well and good But what vision for future business and opportunity do you see? Don't get caught in the Romance trap, as Baldy White used to say, "Romance is deadly to a bidness when not put to constructive use in growing that bidness." [#ditto] [^][;)][:-,] [tup][:-^][yeah]

[route_rock]

Back to the west of Chicago deal 1983 numbers for you B&O is paying $2,025,000 annual rent with an option to buy.This lease is 50 years long.It covers joliet west and has no mention of Peoria(which isnt owned by CSX but by IAIS) Thats a lot of cash every year ok.Maybe they dont own it but here is a lesson in semantics then.The NKP is not owned by NS cause it entered into a 99 year lease with N&W.Face it they own it.If I am moving 2 million in my money to it and maintaining tracks(well upgrading the hell out of them)and I sign on for 50 years then I will say I own the line.Semantics is all it is and it is no excuse for people to say we own/run/have anything to do with that line?Ptt I think some foamers would make great rail bosses look at John Bromley [:-^] better yet Mr Barriger even. Shall I go on?You can be a worker and a fan and yes even bean counters are railroaders(but who takes pics of people counting beans?)Face it these people want pics of trains and th people that run them be thankful we have a lobbying group that actually cares about us.Someday maybe one will help you out (but I doubt it if they recognize you from your postings[:D][(-D][(-D][:-,][}:)][soapbox] be safe all.

[Anonymous]

Ptt100, It is not that "maybe in some cases" that went too far in track reduction it is that in some cases THEY DID GO TOO FAR in track reduction. The track capacity problem is one of the five topics in all the trade mags such as Railway Age and Progressive Railroading.

To be fair they they under the assumption that they were dying industry twenty years ago.
But now that the intermodal revolution is now upon them in full swing after years of empty promises. The RR's don"t have the track capacity to absorb all the new business. Intermodal trains are fast like the old fleet of passenger train the RR's used to run. These trains don't use up yard capacity they use up track capacity, witness UP's problems on the mostly single tracked Sunset Route.

I do agree with MP57313 about property tax assesment. CSX pays one third of all their property taxes to New York State.The only way they were able get a brake was to hold up state sponsered improvments to the Empire Service. If not they hold have to pay a bundle on the (Selkirk to Noth Jersey)River line double tracking project.

[BaltACD]

Railroads cannot show an acceptable return on investment when the investment is sitting in a gridlocked, insufficient capacity physical plant.

CSX's I75 and I95 corriders are gridlocked nightmares and drag the velocity number down, thus the profitability of CSX.

[MP57313]

Business folk (bean counters) aren't all bad/evil. It probably would have helped if some of the bankrupt carriers that became part of Conrail and now CSX had had tax accountants/lawyers on their staffs to challenge the property tax assessments. Whether profitable or not, the property tax is still due. Maybe those RRs pursued that at the time, but I don't recall hearing about it.

[Anonymous]

Here is a website for those who think CSX is on the wrong track. www.csx-sucks.com
I think it is a funny site.

[Anonymous]

Seems that Ptt100 may be too in love with the beancounters in RR's to see that their pennypinching has led to a serious capacity problems in the present.

I remember that after the Conrail split CSX brought out of retirement one of their crack saleman. Well it seems he did job all too well and all the extra business did was to clog up the old "Royal Blue Route".

I wi***hat they would of put in the same kind of investment in the "I95 Corridor" market the way they put money in redouble tracking the old B&O main betwen Greenwich, Ohio and Chicago.

The old Royal Blue Route doesn't even make 20 million gross tonnes(making it a major route of national importance) between Baltimore and North Jersey.

[Philcal]

It's been said of CSX,that it's run by about nine of the most brilliant men in the country who don't how to run a railroad. At the operating level,it's as good as any.In my work I occassionaly have contact with some CSX crews and officials.These folks know their jobs and do them well. Problem seems to be in the higher pay grades.

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrwatkins

I do not know what happened to 90 % of my topic. I guess it is out in the vast ether of the internet somewhere. I will try to reconstruct as best I can:

What is CSX trying to do-go out of business? Cases in point:

CSX ripped up one track of the B&O main line between Pittsburgh and Chicago a few years ago. I have heard that they are replacing that track now. Talk about a great planning department!

CSX abandoned a perfectly good north-south line between southern West Virginia and Harrisburg that passed all of the congestion of the east coast. Now the Cass Scenic Railroad at Cass WV is isolated.

CAS abandoned the Washington-St Louis main line between Grafton and Parkersburg WV. Now an east-west shipment must go through Pittsburgh or the C&O main line in southern WV.

A look at their CSX map shows many severed lines. One now knows how the expression about a hell of a way to run a railroad originated.


I do not think CSX will go belly up but will come close to it. Enlightened management would do wonders.

Mr Watkins
Csx has completed the double track to Chicago.part of a 220 million dollar investment.they have also let some other track go to pot thats why they needed the marion line(Ex nyc) to St.Louis otherwise they wouldnt get to ST.Louis at all.They also found out the closing of standley yard in toledo clogged up too many of their other facilities so they opened it back up.its an on goins show.[}:)]
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

What an interesting topic and direction to read; I admit and plead guilty of being a railfan along with the many that agree with the school of Graham Claytor. That is a fan not only of the trains but of the business and what makes it run. While it is true that bean counters have been around since before Thomson they do and will stop look and listen when confronted by a Harriman, Hill, Morgan (as in J.P.),Spencer or dare I say the word Brosnan and say yes sir. These men understood the requirement that every successfull business involves not only accounting and accountability (pun intended) but 1. Capital, 2. Heart , 3. Skill, and 4. and most importantly A MARKET FOR ITS SERVICES. Forget these things and you are talking about a Hundred Dollar Saddle on a Twenty Dollar Horse with no place to go. CSX is the heir to many good and proud names that are a veritable whos who of North American Railroading , The trouble of it is that accountants don't seem to be interested in growing a market but rather one of just keeping the highest profit areas that are currently available. In short "NO VISION." As the Scriptures say "Where there is no vision the people will perish," and ladies and gentlemen as that applies to nations it also applies to our beloved railroads. My [2c]

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ptt100

Like is or not, railroads have ALWAYS been run by "bean counters"

Guess what? The orginal railroad builders did not lay rails just to impress you fans.

They were investors who thought they could make a good return on their investment by this new (by mid 1800's standards) technology.

How do you fans define a "real" railroader? Is someone who works in accounting for UP or NS or CSX any less of a railroad employee than some one who does track work.???Are they any more or less important???

The fact is there are still a lot of redundant track milage in the NE/Midwest, and a lot of it (not all) should be leased/sold off to short lines or eliminated.

The bean counter view of a segment of single track railroad operating a an acceptable level of capacity is having a train in each and every available track segment....a train occupying the full length of the siding, another train occupying the main between the switches, trains occuping the track segments leading to and leaving the siding....for each and every siding on the subdivision.....GRIDLOCK.

Trains occupy a physical amount of track and must have at least that much space to move to....You can't run an effective railroad when trains operate siding to siding with 20 minute to several hour waits at each siding for the opportunity to run to the next siding or terminal that has the track space to hold the train.

The bean counter view railroads the same way they do insurance companines, banks, furniture companies....any of the thousands of businesses that exist. The operating side of the railroad is like no other business that the bean counters know. When you pare operating capacity to the size that can sustain a depression era level of traffic you have no economy of scale in seeking or obtaining additional traffic....YOUR PHYSICAL PLANT IS MAXED OUT! To get and keep new business you have to invest in your plant and spend 100 to 1000 times the amount that was received from the 'plant rationalization' that the bean counters implemented in the last 20 years. Yes the railroads are a business and they have to be managed for a profit.....despite the bean counters pessismisim railroads are a growth area, not a death area; of course as long as the bean counters continue to pare capacity from lines that are at or exceeding capacity they will implement a self fulfilling stratagey as they will drive away paying customers that will not stand for the fouled up operations that the insufficient capacity generates.

[Randy Stahl]

Then again slimming down is'nt all it's cracked up to be, remember at one time stampede pass was excess capacity, Illlinios Central sold excess track (CCP) and later purchased it back. In my opinion the bean counters cost the industry more than they save ie,. spend a dollar to save a dime.
Randy

[Anonymous]

http://www.cpubco.com/cgi-bin/LiveIQue.acgi$rec=17347cbgFrontPage? 1200 miles of CSX is open to possible lease.

[Anonymous]

Csx is a ok railroad they need a good name like Chessapeake Seaboard and Southern.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

CSX doesn't own anything running west from Chicago. The line to Peoria is leased long-term from Chicago Pacific Corp., the successor company to the Rock Island.

[BaltACD]

Bean counters don't make good railroaders. Since the days of Cyrus Eaton C&o/Chessie/CSX have been run by bean counters. I suspect some of those tresspassers the railroads kill are the same bean counters who don't even know it's a train when it hits them.

[route_rock]

Amen Kevin.BTW did it show the line from Chicago to Peoria?Some real enlightned people in Jacksonville made the claim "we dont own anything heading west from Chicago and when this line was mentioned it was met with"We own that line?" Really?You dont say!If I were an employe on that there line I would be worried that my check wasnt coming.

[Anonymous]

If it does, invite me to the funeral

[Anonymous]

I do not know what happened to 90 % of my topic. I guess it is out in the vast ether of the internet somewhere. I will try to reconstruct as best I can:

What is CSX trying to do-go out of business? Cases in point:

CSX ripped up one track of the B&O main line between Pittsburgh and Chicago a few years ago. I have heard that they are replacing that track now. Talk about a great planning department!

CSX abandoned a perfectly good north-south line between southern West Virginia and Harrisburg that passed all of the congestion of the east coast. Now the Cass Scenic Railroad at Cass WV is isolated.

CAS abandoned the Washington-St Louis main line between Grafton and Parkersburg WV. Now an east-west shipment must go through Pittsburgh or the C&O main line in southern WV.

A look at their CSX map shows many severed lines. One now knows how the expression about a hell of a way to run a railroad originated.


I do not think CSX will go belly up but will come close to it. Enlightened management would do wonders.

[Anonymous]

LOL. Well, CSX certainly seems to have its issues. I doubt it will be disappearing anytime real soon though.

LC

[Anonymous]

look at their map shows many severed lines. One now knows how the espression about a hell of a way to run a railroad came about.