Was I in the right????

[Anonymous]

Hello all, time for another tale from the newbie conductor.

About a week ago I got called for a "K" Train that was just 69 empty tank cars. The engineer I worked with had been very unfriendly with me in the past. I'd even just ask him simple questions related to our job and he'd just either say nothing or give me crud for not knowing. Anywho we were coming out of terminal and starting to gain speed. The engineer and not called a few signals and I asked him if I could. He said "Don't touch a damn thing!" I said "OK, fine". So, he goes to the second unit to do something and he doesn't tell me whether or not I should tap the alerter button. Well, the alerter goes off and I just sat there. Train goes into emergency and when we get stopped, it was quick because we had only 2,200 trailing tons, the engineer comes back up. He just glares at me in disgust. I said "you told me not to touch a damn thing, remember???" I said "All you had to do was ask me to touch the alterter." He just gave me a dirty look and wouldn't say anything. So, then I blew and told him "Do you have problem with me?!!!! What did I do to tick you off?!!!!" He just sat there not saying a thing. So to say the least the rest of the trip was not fun for me. On the return trip we were doubling our train together and I was just double checking with him about what track we were going into and he just said get down there and figure it out. a yes or no was all I needed, but I couldn't even get that out of him!!!! The remainder of the trip went OK, he actually decided to partcipate in a job briefing that I had been trying to get him to do since day one. We yarded our train successfully at our home terminal and that was that. My question is.... Should I have let the train go into emergency like that??? I knew the train was empty tanks, so I knew there would be no shiftable loads flying off. I was also just doing what the engineer told me to do, since he is in charge of the engines. Many people in the terminal have told me that is just the way he is, especially with new hires because he doesn't like that we have to rely on the engineers for help. I felt I didn't have to deal with his attitude like that, that's why I went off on him. I'm still not looking forward to working with him in the future. I've had other grumps to work with,but at least they talk to me and let me know what's going on. If an engineer needed me to tap the alterter I would, all he has to do is ask, but when I'm told not to touch anything, then that's what I'll do. Let me know what you think.

[Anonymous]

Too bad to hear about that experince.

I won't offer you any advice in regards to tapping the alerter, because I am not a railway employee, so I'm not sure how those things are supposed to work out.

I can tell you that no matter where you go, there will be people like this engineer that for whatever reason have a chip on their shoulder, and aren't the most fun to be working with. Just make the best of it, and try to go by the book, you'll only be stuck with the guy for a few hours then it's off to work with someone else.

I'd just do my best to get the job done, try not to talk to him unless it is necessary, and be happy that you're only going to be with him a few hours.

[edblysard]

Way to go Nat!

Sounds silly, but you did right.
First, you already knew what was in your train, and I am betting if you had any shiftable loads, you would have restet the alerter...

So you gave him exactly what he demanded, nothing, no help, which is what he offered you.
If he dosnt want to teach you, so next time you two work together, he knows what to expect from you and vice versa, well, that's his loss!

And you learned something in all of this, that, if you have to, you can do the job on your own.

Dont let guys like this take advantage of your new hire status, show them you are serious about learning what you need to know, and would perfer to learn it from them, the experienced guys, but if needs be, you can figure it out on your own.

Once they realize you wont play the game, most of the old heads will start to help you out, and will start to show you respect, even though you are new.

Make it real plain and simple for them to understand, you wont give any crap, but you aint going to take any either...

When they understand you mean it, they will come around.

Every new hire goes through something like this, its a test of sorts.

You passed.

Now learn to ignore the buttheads, and pay attention to the ones who want to teach.

Ed

[dharmon]

Not to change the subject..I think you did the right thing. I have flown with many pilots like that...and it seems that mindset eventually gets even with them in the end. Do the newer units still have a dead man pedal? I guess what I'm asking is when he got up and went to the second unit, did you slide over to the console? Probably a stupid question. Just trying to picture it in my head.

[Anonymous]

dharmon,

I haven't seen but a few dead man's pedals, most of those have been phased out. Now it is either a spring coil-looking thing or a yellow button on the newer motors. I know what to push because other engineers have taught me how to run, I can't name names, but I do have a general idea on how to stop a train without going into emergency. This guy just rubbed me the wrong way and I wanted him to eat his words!!! [}:)][:(!]

[dharmon]

The point I understand completely...BELIEVE ME, I have flown with plenty of pilots who run around with the attitude of "You're the new guy, shut up, read the checklist and if I want any words from you, I'll pull the string in your back."...I actually had someone tell me that once. He ended up swapping paint with a parked plane while taxiing in.

I guess in my mind when I read it I envisioned that he got up and went back to the second unit with you sitting in the left seat. I didn't think that could be done, that there was some sort of dead man switch that you have to keep pressure on to keep the loco going or it would throttle back. Then I thought well you slid over to the engineer's seat but he told you not to touch anything and it seemed it would be pretty hard to keep the train from coasting down if he did that. But then again...I don't know much about driving trains.

Dan

[Anonymous]

Ofcourse you were right, but I came in, when i did... expecting this...

Any engineer, that works with me knows, I return what is thrown at me....

A guy is rude to me, i turn into a bookie, he better follow every rule in the book, while I am standing there, or they will get it.

one trip, the Engineer was rude, a very short and rude man (strictly because he lost money with hsi favorite sports team)

everyone knows,. do that to me, and your in uhhhh.. shlat.

so I gfolowed every rule... Treack speed is 25 MPh throught a turnout/switching tracks, if he wqent 30, i pulled the emergency break...

He forogt to call a clear to stop signal, i pulled the emergency break, AS STATED i should do in such events, upon the engineer Failing to call signals,. And failing to meet/exceed track speed...

The guy was sitting right there, and he knew i meant buisnees, we had many passenegers on the train. and they were all gonna complain...

I wasn't in trouble, jsut following the rules...

Normally, I let a lot of stuff slip because i'm having to much fun, but *** get there fair treatment.

I commend what you did... I had to pull the breaks TWICE to get him to lighten up, he knew i would ahve done it 1000 more times, if necesary...

he even said after the second time, okay, okay i'm sorry...

took two times, i thoughtt he first would have given him the message, but stubborn as a lamb

you were right, and i would have done everyhting you did.

[BaltACD]

The only way to deal with malicious a..holes is compliance....malicious compliance.

Do 'exactly' what is asked and absolutely no more and definately no less.

The engineer told you not to touch anything .... You Didn't. If the Emergency applicattion knocked him on his a.. then he got exactly what he asked for.

You Done Good.

I don't know that you will ever make this person a 'friendly acquaintance and work mate', but that choice is his and his alone. For all you or anyone else knows he may be going through some personel problems and is otherwise consumed by his own problems.

[edblysard]

Yeah, he might have a problem at home, but one of the things I learned real quick about this career is...
What happens at work, out in the yard, stays in the yard.

What happens at home, you better leave it at home, or you will kill yourself, or one of your buddies, by letting it distract you.

Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

The only way to deal with malicious a..holes is compliance....malicious compliance.

Do 'exactly' what is asked and absolutely no more and definately no less.

The engineer told you not to touch anything .... You Didn't. If the Emergency applicattion knocked him on his a.. then he got exactly what he asked for.

You Done Good.

I don't know that you will ever make this person a 'friendly acquaintance and work mate', but that choice is his and his alone. For all you or anyone else knows he may be going through some personel problems and is otherwise consumed by his own problems.

[Anonymous]

You will come across many difficult and hostile characters in your railroad career. You are the best one to decide how to handle them. I probably would not have let the alerter go, but I wasn't there either. You can't let guys like that walk on you or they will all do it. Sooner or later you have to confront them. Try to do so safely.

LC

[csxengineer98]

i would have uses alot of 4 letter words that i cant say in here.... what a d#k.... some old heads are assholes..but that is just down right ignorant....
but let me give you some advice.....he may be in charge of the engins.....but YOU are in charge of the train... as far as calling signals..if he dont want to do it...i would do it.... even if it means you haveing to get your handset out and calling them on that....but personaly i would have just grabed the handset from the controll stand and keep it on my side.... but it sounds to me like it dont matter how nice you are to him..he is just miserable at life...and personaly....someone that wants to be that way with me...im going to be the same way back... besides..what the hell was he thinking going back to another unit while underway....... and not show you how to do something in just in case of an emergancy.... what if someone would have walked out in front of your train..and you creamed them... since thier would be no record of the horn being blown...it would be both your asses in the slammer for manslauter.....but on a lighter note for you...when the alerter goes off..it donsent put the train into emergancy....it puts the breaks on the train..but at controlled rate...just like if i where to go from releace to full service....it applys them at a service rate..not at an emergancy rate...but none the less...it stops your train..... oh on that note..haveing your train stoped in the first place......i would have made him get on the radio and explain it to the dispatcher why you where stoped.... might make him think twice haveing to explain that he left the post for some stupid **** and the train had a penitaly application...
csx engineer

[ValleyX]

He isn't supposed to get up and walk out the door, certainly right that if you would hit someone or something, you'd both be in a world of trouble, there would be some explaining to do.

If I understand FRA guidelines correctly, you can't legally touch anything on that control stand because you don't have a license. As far as letting the air set up, that's pretty funny, I knew a guy who did they same thing when the engineer told him to watch it. They weren't getting along and so he watched it, never said a word about resetting it.

Guy sounds like a miserable individual to work with, not eveyrone will be a prince to work with and you have to make the best of it but I like what you did, he can't really say anything because I guarantee you that he isn't supposed to leave the cab or even the control stand while the train is moving.

[wabash1]

I am like the others here What is he thinking leaving the engine to go to the 2nd unit to check something while moving. if i leave the engine while moving i have my conductor run ( he isnt a new guy and new guys may have been shown things but still cant run) but i dont go far. this guy got what he deserved. the alerter is only a penalty applacation and brakes are applied at service rate.( unless there is a shooter) and that is even more fun when they haft to exsplain why the engine has flat spots on the wheels from a 80-90 lbs applacation cause nobody bailed them. In short you did it right. and most everyone in terminal would have backed you up if it would have been serious and you was pulled out of service.( of course he would be pulled out to) the key is cover your butt. its your job he wont feed you or your family when your fired do it by the book and make money. On our road the conductor is in charge of the train the engineer is in charge of the engines and the movement of the train. paths cross with resposability. we all try to get along but if one dont want to or wants to over step his bounds it can be bad. From what you been saying you are doing it right dont let them guys get you in trouble.

[rrnut282]

IMHO yes

[Rick Gates]

We can get away with having lousy personalities and bad moods or attitudes with those unsure of themselves and the execution of their duties. I did when I worked as a hoghead. When I was a newbie, I was taken advantage of until I started throwing my knowledge of the rulebook at the crew. To my recollection, the 400 rules states the responsibilities of each position on the crew......the engineman's reads that he/she will "obey the instructions of the conductor in charge of their train as to the general management of their train." You're doing good Nathan! May your experiences be blessed with "Golden rail."