Overmod Phoebe Vet An Amtrak train headed to Charlotte collided with a car Tuesday afternoon in Mebane. Apparently a pretty direct result of four-quadrant gating, for you 'quiet zones are safe' aficionados...
Phoebe Vet An Amtrak train headed to Charlotte collided with a car Tuesday afternoon in Mebane.
Apparently a pretty direct result of four-quadrant gating, for you 'quiet zones are safe' aficionados...
EuclidI don't find any references to the crossing or its protection system. What do four-quadrant gates have to do with it.
RTFA (in the link "Witnesses told WTVD")
It was pretty clear to me, but maybe not to you. The 80-year-old victim 'got her van stuck on the tracks between the crossing bars'. A reference yesterday referenced the 'gates coming down around' her (or language to that effect). It tells me she was on the crossing and the gates blocked her in. When you're 80, you might not think of ways to get out of that predicament before the train gets to you -- and that seems most likely what has happened here.
While it is possible she just happened to stall there and was trying to get the vehicle moving again at the wrong time... she was still boxed in, and that might have contributed to the apparent difficulty in getting her out of the van in time.
Oh okay, I did not see a reference to being blocked in by gates.
EuclidOh okay, I did not see a reference to being blocked in by gates.
On an interesting note, I cannot find the reference to 'gates closing around' her in the coverage this morning. I try to avoid conspiracy theories, but this makes me at least wonder if there is some attempt being made to "restate" the coverage of this accident in some way...
I cannot find my copy of the FRA Research Report on camera-equipped four-quadrant gating to see whether it explicitly used the cameras to keep the 'exit' quadrant open for a vehicle stuck in a lane of a crossing.* Whether cameras, inductive loops, or some other technology is used to achieve that, I have always thought it to be a critical safety element for four-quadrant gate installations. In a great many places -- and, apparently, here -- that safety has apparently not been provided.
*I started looking for it again, and here is something more recent with specific reference to the situation.
Watch a 4 quadrant gate operate.
First the bells and red flashing lights activate. There is a delay before the gate descends There is another delay before the exit gate descends The only way to get trapped between the gates is to enter or remain in the ROW after the lights and bell actuate. Every few weeks I see someone with no patience do exactly that. I see people stopped in bumper to bumper traffic on the tracks. I see gates come down on top of moving vehicles. Last week, while riding our light rail, the train came to a complete stop and was blowing the horn repeatedly. I moved so I could see out the front. In front of us there were not one, but two cars stopped INSIDE the lowered gate but before the tracks, patiently waiting for the train to pass. Which explains my claim that many people are to stupid to be allowed to cross railroad tracks.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Just a thought:
Perhaps testing the ability to K turn and parallel park are not the best criteria for a road test.
Phoebe Vet NC DOTas been systematically sealing the entire corridor for several years in anticipation of the SE Corridor.
NC DOTas been systematically sealing the entire corridor for several years in anticipation of the SE Corridor.
I agree 100% that we should be on a long term path of elimination of rail crossings.
blue streak 1 Phoebe Vet NC DOTas been systematically sealing the entire corridor for several years in anticipation of the SE Corridor. Phoebe: The point should be "a good grade crossing is an extinct grade crossing"! Regular gates where none are, four quadrant gates, quiet zones and other improvements will not cure drivers ignorance of proper behavior around a grade crossing. Friend stopped to check a grade crossing with gates that later were found to not be not operating but a train horn warned him! Only worked when train in island circuit.
Just a brief comment on this. It seems that over the last few years, the NC DOT Trains on their " Corridor": seem to be reported as hitting more dump trucks, and log trucks on a fairly regular basis....This does not seem to include the autos that run their crossings, do they count those?
So closing or Highway-Rail Crossings would be a real plus for them. The question remains; when crossings are closed, are they replaced with Over or Underpasses? It seems to be learned behavior with motorists, maybe a game(?) The answer seems to be Crossings with such restrictive devices as to discourage the scoff-laws?
This time they hit a truck hauling part of a modular home.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article13102043.html
Their is a video on WSOC TV 9 that shows the train hitting the trailer.
Russell
One news report says he stalled on the tracks. Looking at the intersection in Google Earth Street View it's a pretty safe bet he stopped for the traffic light while still on the track.
Norm
csxns Their is a video on WSOC TV 9 that shows the train hitting the trailer.
See video linked @ http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=train+wreck%2fhalifax%2cnc%3f&qpvt=Train+wreck%2fHalifax%2cNC%3f&FORM=VQFRML#view=detail&mid=5DA03E297165781D265C5DA03E297165781D265C
Video was shot by a motorist apparently waiting for the load to clear the intersection(?) [suguest turn you sound down on viewing video]. Large modular structure had a NC State Police escort, [other videos are available with FD/PD dispatch traffic on them.] It was being reported that 50 people were transported injured from scene.
Yes but most of the "injured" were transported to the hospital by bus. Only the real injured people went by ambulance.
I am going to have to lay the cause of this incident at the hands of the NC Trooper that was escorting the oversized load. He should have called the Railroad prior to the truck EVER occupying the crossing and requested that rail traffic be held until the load had cleared the crossing. Carriers will honor such requests from local authorities. With the crossing being on CSX, they have posted at every road crossing, on the crossbuck statnion, both the contact number as well as the DOT identification number of the crossing so there is no confusion as to which crossing is the one to be protected.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
http://news.yahoo.com/investigators-seek-cause-amtrak-crash-injured-55-085032668.html
BaltACD http://news.yahoo.com/investigators-seek-cause-amtrak-crash-injured-55-085032668.html
FTL:[snipped]"... investigators were piecing together why emergency railroad dispatchers apparently weren't told that Black was struggling to negotiate a tight turn across the tracks with a load nearly 16 feet wide and tall, weighing 127 tons and stretching for 164 feet..
The locomotive's "black box" was recovered, and investigators will review the state permit that enabled Turner to exceed length and weight limits while hauling the electrical distribution facility to New Jersey.
The route, including the fateful turn at the railroad crossing, was designed to avoid several highway overpasses along Interstate 95 that would have been too risky to get under with such a tall load, officials said.
Long-established protocols require truck drivers and trooper escorts to "clear their routes and inform the railroad dispatchers what they're doing," said Steve Ditmeyer, a former Federal Railroad Administration official.
Failing that, a toll-free emergency number prominently displayed at each crossing reaches dispatchers who can radio trains to stop..."
BALTACD had pointed out the truth od the very last sentence in a previous Forum post.
Normally, in the movement of many wide loads, it is the 'ESCORT' of that load that bears the responsibility for the safe delivery of the load, not to mention the insurance coverage for the escorted load. Not sure about North Carolina's rules, but since this load was not only excessively wide AND High, Long and Heavy; the State may have required the Troopers to be accompanying the load,in addition to the normal escort and their vehicles(?)
[Note to Edit: add Emphasis] The CBS news broadcast last night mentioned that the Highway-Rail Grade Crossing had been blocked, at the time of the incident, for over 8 minutes. Enough time for a call to be placed to the RR Dispatch Emergency number(on the Crossing Stanchion)
Do not N.C. State Troopers have 2 way radio communications available (?) A lot can be accomplished in 8 minutes.
The North Carolina State Highway Patrol is stating that the permit holder is responsible for checking the route, and I'm assuming making the emergency call. “The one purpose of the patrol member is to basically make sure that unit is being correctly moved from point A to point B. ... Our trooper did not make the wrong decision.”I'm not sure I agree with that when there is a clear danger to the public's safety. And yes, the NCSHP spokesman's name is Jeff Gordon.
Emergency call might have prevented Halifax Amtrak derailment - Raleigh News & Observer
Seems no one was in charge of notifying the RR:
"Alerting the railroad wasn't the responsibility of the trooper, who had only 25 seconds or so to react after the approaching New York-bound train set off warning lights and the crossing arms came down, North Carolina Highway Patrol Spokesman Lt. Jeff Gordon said."
Read the full story:
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/03/11/investigators-seek-cause-of-amtrak-crash-that-injured-55/21152052/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000058
Folks we be also in reading "She said she rolled down her window and asked a flag man if he could alert the railroad, but "he said he didn't think so."
So, the fault is back to the tracking company and the state for poor planning and management of this move. Darn that Amtrack for putting a train on them tracks!
[quote user="dubch87“The one purpose of the patrol member is to basically make sure that unit is being correctly moved from point A to point B. ... Our trooper did not make the wrong decision.”[/quote]
Think about that statement. Wouldn't making sure that RR crossing protocols were being followed be part of that duty ?.
seppburgh2 Seems no one was in charge of notifying the RR: "Alerting the railroad wasn't the responsibility of the trooper, who had only 25 seconds or so to react after the approaching New York-bound train set off warning lights and the crossing arms came down, North Carolina Highway Patrol Spokesman Lt. Jeff Gordon said." Read the full story: http://www.aol.com/article/2015/03/11/investigators-seek-cause-of-amtrak-crash-that-injured-55/21152052/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000058 Folks we be also in reading "She said she rolled down her window and asked a flag man if he could alert the railroad, but "he said he didn't think so." So, the fault is back to the tracking company and the state for poor planning and management of this move. Darn that Amtrack for putting a train on them tracks!
North Carolina Highway Patrol Spokesman Lt. Jeff Gordon seems to be bucking for night shift foot patrol every time he opens his mouth.
A follow-up from The News & Observer (nothing new, really, but thought I'd share).
Road Worrier: NC unclear on Trooper training, duties for big-truck escort
Typical CYA.
OK, Suppose that I agree that the trooper is there to protect the public from the movement.
The company making the movement should be required to have its own escorts fore and aft, and they *should* be trained for all circumstances. North Dakota laws require this, but then we do not have all that many troopers to begin with, and the State Police are shut down at late night with nobody scheduled to be on duty other than to be on call. (mayhap the increase in oil activity has changed this over the past four years). Still, huge movements (270' tall wind towers with 100' long blades) all move without troopers. They have their own protection vehicles. And they have lots of radio antenas AND a tall mast that will warn of any low overhead that would strike the shipment.
One of the largest shipments ever on state roads was a pair of drying units for the ethanol plant here in Richardton. Once the parked these units, they built the building around them.
There MUST me a movement officer with all such movements and they must be in constant contact with authorities including railroads.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I was a bit surprised to see that a State Trooper was providing the escort for an oversize movement. I'm not sure of what the law requires, but in the Chicago area, most oversize moves have private escorts, usually about two or three per move. There are several firms that provide this service.
Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. I would think the train should be prepared to stop if the crossing event is started less than 30 minutes from the time the train will arrive. If the train is more than 30 minutes away, and not prepared to stop, that would allow ample time to contact the railroad to stop the train.
That is not how it is done!
Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic.
These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter.
BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. I would think the train should be prepared to stop if the crossing event is started less than 30 minutes from the time the train will arrive. If the train is more than 30 minutes away, and not prepared to stop, that would allow ample time to contact the railroad to stop the train. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter. When you say, “Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross. Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted…” How short does the time interval between the dispatcher notification and the arrival of the train have to be before the dispatcher would not give permission to cross until after the train passes? I think the time interval should not be less than 30 minutes. If they want to make it less, then have the train prepared to stop if the crossing is blocked.
BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter.
Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing.
The point where the Dispatcher would absolutely tell someone to wait would be if traffic is past the last control point on either side of the crossing that is to be crossed. Dispatchers contol Control Points. While it is possible to notify trains to stop a location between control points and then restrict their further movement by train message; that is not the recommended procedure, except in an emergency.
Like all dispatching decisions it is dependent up the priority of traffic that is on the railroad, the HOS situation of the trains in the area, etc. etc.
The overriding rule of Train Dispatching is - PROTECT then authorize.
If you want or need railroad protection you will have to wait until the railroad can provide the protection; otherwise Halifax Road is the result.
In an ideal world with the movement of this 'modular electrical room'; the shipper, after getting the approved route for the device would contact the railroads that the device would cross and notify them of a anticipated itenarary and time frame for arrival at the affected crossings. The railroad(s) may have MofW personnel on scene to protect railroad interests and may request formal MofW track occupancy authority for protection of the move.
Done right, moving this kind of dimensional structure is not something that can be properly done 'on the cheap', as in addition to the truck & trailer moving the load there should have been at least two 'flag cars' accompanying the load - the leading flag car measuring clearance objects before OK'ing the load to move past them and a trailing 'flag car' to warn and prevent overtaking traffic from infringing on manouvering room should the load need to back up (which it did in this instance).
The movement of this load was botched from the word go.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid With the train so close, the truck should never have been allowed to cross unless the train was pre-warned and prepared to stop. You can’t rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning to allow the truck to clear the crossing. I would think the train should be prepared to stop if the crossing event is started less than 30 minutes from the time the train will arrive. If the train is more than 30 minutes away, and not prepared to stop, that would allow ample time to contact the railroad to stop the train. That is not how it is done! Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross.Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted and gets notified by the crossing party that the identified trains have passed and is then given permission to cross the crossing.Dispatcher blocks off Control Points on either side of crossing until party reports the move has been completed and track is OK to resume traffic. These are not unusual requests and are handled in a routine matter. When you say, “Railroad & Dispatcher get notified of attempt to cross. Dispatcher advises if there are any trains that must pass before crossing is attempted…” How short does the time interval between the dispatcher notification and the arrival of the train have to be before the dispatcher would not give permission to cross until after the train passes? I think the time interval should not be less than 30 minutes. If they want to make it less, then have the train prepared to stop if the crossing is blocked.
BaltACD had previously linked a Yahoo.com News story about this incident. His reference to duties of the Dispatch and Railroad should be taken as 'gospel' here; for reasons obviously known in these Forums.
Euclid is correct about the Train's engineer being prepared to stop ( due to a warning from his Dispatch)...Absolutely correct on both partts. BUT each position is only able to react to protect the rail traffic, IF they have been warned in ADVANCE...
Normally, the person responsibe for moving the load, orders a state issued permit; notifying the railroad would be the ESCORT's for the oversize load's responbsibility. That person would have a clear understanding of their responsibilities for protecting the oversized load, and any official notifications to be made regarding the movement.
The oversized load that was involved in this move was far oversized in the movement of wide loads. Not only was it very heavy at 127 tons, and 254,000 lbs.
It was over diamentional: at about 16' tall, by 16' wide, and 164' in length ( the articles are not clear if that is the total length of the tractor, a' joedog' and the load. (A 'joedog' refers to an extra set of additional wt bearing axles). it was rerported to have been on a total 13 axles(?) .
The particular railroad line involved in this incident is a CSX 'A' Line, and hosts some 35 trains a day, freight and passenger. It is also stated in some of the posted-linked articles that the time frame for this crossing to have been blocked was anywhere between 8 to 20 minutes. It was very obvious that the N.C. Highway Patrol accepts no responsibility for any notifications to the Railroad due to the crossing being blocked. It seems to throw all that on the Trucking Company and the escort and most likely their insurance carrier(?).
It would be productive if some one could find a copy of the NC state patrol policy manual on blocked RR crossings. As well for comparsion what other state's manuals say.
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