I think I hear a gasket about to blow. Time to coast to a stop and call the wrecker.
[locked]
Modelcar Everyone can push out numbers for this and that....We'll not get into that back amd forth. Just to say, Toyota {built}, vehicles have been successful. Very much so. Numbers...? Look at the sales total of said product for some years back now....
Everyone can push out numbers for this and that....We'll not get into that back amd forth.
Just to say, Toyota {built}, vehicles have been successful. Very much so.
Numbers...? Look at the sales total of said product for some years back now....
That is right for you to own 2 toyotas and speak for the world that they are the best cars made is only self gratifacation, but that is not the point of this and to fight with you over toyota this and that is not the point. go buy another tin can crap car. and when you do that think of the men and women you just made lose their house ( american made no doubt) and maybe your kids that would be great nice change to the irony HAHA.
Me i will buy american and pay american dollars to american company for americans, and dont come and say well the tundra is made in princeton and the van and the other crap, that may be so but the profits are sent back to JAPAN, none spent here , the employees of all buisness in county pay taxes to the county from there pay checks that way the toyotas can be produced here. fair trade?
The way I see it is you can go to wal-mart and buy nothing that has made in america on it. go to toyota and send the money to japan maybe you should move over to japan im sure you be taller than them, fit right in. In what was to be a joke i am sure seams to be more truth any more and it goes like this the only thing this country makes any more is Beer, ( union made) and prositutes ( probley non union) I guess if i am going to buy american made, maybe hoffa should get them a union started.not everyone wants to be a owner operator.
No, No, No...don't keep quiet here, I just couldn't figure out what the Trinity comment was about. My comment re: Toyota on that point was just being smartassed!
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Henry:Why did I say that here?Probably rambling. The point I was making was the change of labor over the years. I was moved by the interaction between the father and the son, as they shared a moment as each began their days. Unfortunately those kinds of images are harder and harder to find.
No real comment on the union at Trinity. The management was difficult to work with. No used Toyota parts that I am aware of in the railcars.
Thanks for asking for clarification...I will keep quiet on this discussion.
Ed
Quentin
Modelcar wabash1Oh and if you look back in history those so called toyota that are supposed to be the best built cars i keep laughing at the people who buy that crap. ....Just a comment: I want nothing to do with the discussion of yes or no to unions. Period. But....to those who say Toyota built cars are "crap", are simply in denial. Personal experience with two Toyota built cars, {Lexus}, has given us exceptional reliable, enjoyable performce for seventeen years....Present one looks and drives just fine. One really can't purchase a totally built American vehicle anymore....All have parts from all over the world to manufacture them...Some a pretty high % of foreign parts. Some domestic vehicles are produced either north of our border and or south of it....I'm certainly not against locally produced vehicles....Have one of those too. A Chevrolet small truck.
wabash1Oh and if you look back in history those so called toyota that are supposed to be the best built cars i keep laughing at the people who buy that crap.
....Just a comment: I want nothing to do with the discussion of yes or no to unions. Period. But....to those who say Toyota built cars are "crap", are simply in denial. Personal experience with two Toyota built cars, {Lexus}, has given us exceptional reliable, enjoyable performce for seventeen years....Present one looks and drives just fine.
One really can't purchase a totally built American vehicle anymore....All have parts from all over the world to manufacture them...Some a pretty high % of foreign parts. Some domestic vehicles are produced either north of our border and or south of it....I'm certainly not against locally produced vehicles....Have one of those too. A Chevrolet small truck.
Well let me put it this way personal exsperiance 5 toyotas 4 junk before 100k and 1 still going at 175k, 2 nissan both 200k+ minor problems. then we go to GM several with 100k no problems Ford owned 10 and relitives with fords 100k and only 1 was junk I also seen several fords go to 250k-450k, and ive owned several dodges also and they was great cars. the only cas ive had major trouble with is toyota.
Im glad you have had great luck with toyota im not buying even a used tin can. I am buying american made iron to support americans not japan. union or not. my next car may be a crown vic, or either a f-150 or a dodge1500. and the ones i buy will start with a 1 on the vin number
spokyone blue streak 1 . Note: UPS under National mediation act not Railway labor act which FED EX is under. Thanks. Can you provide a link for this application of rules?
blue streak 1 . Note: UPS under National mediation act not Railway labor act which FED EX is under.
Unfortunately I cannot provide a link other than having operated for companys under the Railway Labor Act (RLA).
All companys except RLA have a defined procedure of majority of those voting rules as to the addition of an union. Under RLA until now those not voting is a no vote. I am not sure whether that is a law or not.
Application of contract rules are very much different once you have an union.
1. Workers after voting in a union get a contract that has a definite end. ( Auto workers, retail sales, UPS, etc.
2. RLA contracts do not expire despite anything written in contract. A couple early contracts got caught by that provision.
3. All contracts now have written an ammendable date. Anytime before or after that date either/or both the company and union can send a RLA Section 6 notification that they propose changes to the contract.
4. Then within a certain time both partys have to meet to try to come to an agreement. Anything can be agreeded to including just work limts to the ammend date.
5. If no agreement then after the ammend date the partys can go to the NLRB and say they are at an impass. If the NLRB agrees they get the NMB (national mediation board) to offer mediation.
6. If NLRB does not agree then the partys are told to engage in further talks. (This has been a tactic of some administrations that can delay any resolution to the next step for over a year or maybe when congress will be back in session.
7. Once declared an impass then binding arbitration is then offered. If rejected then a 30 (?) day cooling off period starts and at the end of that 30 day the union can strike and the company can impose any work conditions they desire including hiring strike breakers.
8. Under the RLA if one union finally strikes other unions can; if there is no prohibition in the other union's contract then the other unions can honor the picket lines. Most contracts have a no honor clause now days.
9. In the meantime if the union striking can cause national emergencys then a presidental emergency board to be convened for 60 (?) days to examine the issues and get some resolution.
10. If no resolution then a strike can finally happen unless congress passes emergency legislation sending the workers back to work. Happened to RR workers in 1948 (?).
11. Usually but not always each section of a contract is debated separately and when agreeded upon will not be then changed. That's why a court reporter usually records everything so there can be no disagreement later. Transcripts are always read before final agreement. Sometimes it is only 1 - 3 sections of a contract that are the hold up and they may be inter related.
MP173 Trinity Car in Meadville, Pa. Everytime I see those cars (exterior post hopper cars for AGP), it brings back memories of that plant...mostly bad. Ed
Trinity Car in Meadville, Pa. Everytime I see those cars (exterior post hopper cars for AGP), it brings back memories of that plant...mostly bad.
Ok. So why do you say that here? What does it have to do with the discussion? Union? Management? Used Toyota parts?
zugmann Modelcar ....Just a comment: I want nothing to do with the discussion of yes or no to unions. Period. But....to those who say Toyota built cars are "crap", are simply in denial. Personal experience with two Toyota built cars, {Lexus}, has given us exceptional reliable, enjoyable performce for seventeen years....Present one looks and drives just fine. One really can't purchase a totally built American vehicle anymore....All have parts from all over the world to manufacture them...Some a pretty high % of foreign parts. Some domestic vehicles are produced either north of our border and or south of it....I'm certainly not against locally produced vehicles....Have one of those too. A Chevrolet small truck. My experience in Toyota produced a blown transmission in under 80K miles (luckily the warranty the used car dealer gave with it provided for a replacement at their cost). Now it's frame rust. Think my next truck will carry the Toyota badge? At least the truck was built in Indiana....
Modelcar ....Just a comment: I want nothing to do with the discussion of yes or no to unions. Period. But....to those who say Toyota built cars are "crap", are simply in denial. Personal experience with two Toyota built cars, {Lexus}, has given us exceptional reliable, enjoyable performce for seventeen years....Present one looks and drives just fine. One really can't purchase a totally built American vehicle anymore....All have parts from all over the world to manufacture them...Some a pretty high % of foreign parts. Some domestic vehicles are produced either north of our border and or south of it....I'm certainly not against locally produced vehicles....Have one of those too. A Chevrolet small truck.
My experience in Toyota produced a blown transmission in under 80K miles (luckily the warranty the used car dealer gave with it provided for a replacement at their cost). Now it's frame rust. Think my next truck will carry the Toyota badge? At least the truck was built in Indiana....
Toyota's problems, incidently, go further back than this recent blast. A couple of years ago my son took his late 90's truck to his Toyota dealer for service. They told him to hold on, he may not be taking the truck home because of frame or something problems. In the end they gave him a check for an excellent condition, low milage, virtually unused truck totaling over 12 thousand dollars despite its being over 180,000 miles old and not in great condition otherwise! I learned that it was happening to others elsewhere. My son bought a used Chevy which he was not as happy with overall! So where does that leave Toyota or Chevy?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
MP173 One of the neatest things I ever witnessed was an interaction between father and son at a railcar building plant in Pa. I was there supporting a customer's order and it was about 7am. The father and son were talking thru the chain link fence. Obviously the son was walking to school and was talking to his dad and each was eating a donut. Fifteen years later I wonder what became of both. The factory shut down several years later. .....Sounds like Johnstown Ed.
One of the neatest things I ever witnessed was an interaction between father and son at a railcar building plant in Pa. I was there supporting a customer's order and it was about 7am. The father and son were talking thru the chain link fence. Obviously the son was walking to school and was talking to his dad and each was eating a donut. Fifteen years later I wonder what became of both. The factory shut down several years later.
.....Sounds like Johnstown Ed.
I watched one of the TV shows - the CEO of the environmental company (garbage collection company) and was really impressed by his attitude change.
There needs to be more understanding back and forth but I am not sure how that is going to come about. Personally, I have been treated very fairly in my present job. The previous one was not as good and I left.
I agree with the comment about the industrial towns and the deterioration. It is really depressing. Things have changed so rapidly in my adult life.
Our economy is in quite a transition these days. Skills are certainly needed for growth and survival.
edbentonThink about this when even Europe home to Socilaists UNIONS are telling theirs NO maybe OURS NEED TO WAKE UP. Greece Italy Spain about to COLLASPE due to UNIONS and the Demands they placed on the Goverments there. Will be nice to see huh.
Think about this when even Europe home to Socilaists UNIONS are telling theirs NO maybe OURS NEED TO WAKE UP. Greece Italy Spain about to COLLASPE due to UNIONS and the Demands they placed on the Goverments there. Will be nice to see huh.
Yeah... who wants 5 weeks vacation, paid maternity/paternity leave, healthcare for all, money for continuing education, child care, etc.etc. I'd much rather work like a rented mule.
If a company is decent and treats their workers well, they have no threat of a union. People aren't going to pay a chunk of their paycheck for no reason. Now that is not to say that there are industries that could benefit from unions that won't establish them due to political propaganda, but that is another issue. It's the companies that treat their employees like crap that are afraid.
For example, take the RR. The big RRS don't pay that great for most areas, the hours suck, the lifestyle is extremely hard on body and mind, and on top of that there is the petty harassment from supposed "managers", The working environment can be downright volatile at times. Having the union just gives the slaves workers that tiny little bit of leverage. It's not much, and we are the biggest complainers about our unions that exist (but since we pay into it, we have that right) but sometimes it's all we have.
Plenty of places are non-union and there is no shortage of non-union work. So stop acting like unions are going to destroy the world. They aren't anymore than greedy companies are (like walmart having its employees on public assistance). If you can't afford to pay your employees, then you can't afford to be in business.
Take a look at any former industrial town. When those towns had jobs that paid living wages, the towns thrived. Now? $6 an hour jobs just don't cut it.
As far as Toyota, I have an older Toyota truck. Nice truck, but it has its share of problems. Also have a ford. That's been recalled, too. But they are machines. If they were perfect, nobody would ever buy a new one again.
It is nice to see that in all these years not a thing has changed those who are not union when things dont go right for them and they have lost thier jobs blame unions and union men and women keep things moving. it is always easier to blame a man or woman making 10-20 dollars a hour more than a non union person, that the country is doomed because the greedy union are breaking the bank, when unions members stick together there is power in numbers and we prevail but non-union people stab each other in the back and push on, and the only winner is the company.
I have been in union and non union shops...and at one time the union shop was the better place to be because of how management was taking advantage of the clock and the calander. I became involved in contract negotiations on several occasions, once as shop steward, and was amazed at how, each time, in the two week period leading up to the sessions, management and union both sniped at each other, sat down at the table with pitch forks in both hands, fire in their eyes, and smoke emitting from nostrils and ears! The sniping then continued for about another week before peace and progress resumed. On one occasion, when a shop was bought by another company, the union contract followed. By promising better hours and pay for the young employees, and because of a rabble rousing kid whose father was a lawyer and anti union, emotions were stirred and an election was held. As I said, I had been involved in union matters for several years at that point, saw black lists and and the polarization at the tables, so urged fellow workers to keep the union at least for the time being, there were ways to get out of it without voting but it would just take longer. However the vote was something like 13 - 1 so I was fired. Meanwhile those other 13 were coming to me asking when the new pay scale was going to take effect and when were they going to get the days off and other rewards promised! I told them I knew nothing of what they were talking about, that I was never promised any of that, and that they had to take those matters up with the General Manager who mad those promises. Here was a fair election process and the results. Lessons learned through all this were: I would probably not vote a union in unless circumstances were so bad (i.e. benefits, working hours, safety conditions, competitive pay...not necessarily in that order or necessarily just one condition); I would still not vote a union out if it already existed unless it in itself proved useless to the application at the work place; the posturing of management and union around contract renewal time was just that, posturing, and really meaningless in the long run; the good the unions brought to American business in the long run out weigh the bad overall. My regret is that both unions and management have lost sight of their own and each others goals of safety, quality, and reasonable income to the detriment of our economy. If there is to be progress in the American economy there has to be a reasonable approach to the needs of both sides for the good of the Country or else there will be more offshore manufacturing with owners reaping benefits of compensation with no mass buying market here at home, i.e. the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, their will be more mistrust followed by certain unrest. Railroad managements and unions have met these challanges in many ways, most notably in crew size, elimination of cabooses (not because of the reduction of crew size but in lessening injuries), and it attempts to deal with fatigue and its attendant problems. CBS TV just finished a series wherein major CEO's went incognito into their own ranks to find out what really went on in the daily operation of thier businesses. It appears the most of these CEO's came away with a new understanding and appreciation of how a grain of sand was turned into a diamond and the trials and tibulations encountred along the way. What came across to me was that management in this country has lost touch with its own roots and reality, that dealing with workers problems be it job related or not, dealing with the CEO's own directives often not founded in practice but by financial needs, have more to do with quality, safety, and the bottom line than what these CEO's were led to believe. It if happened with this handful of CEO's, then it must also be a problem with others across the board. If these problems are not dealt with directly and properly, then there will either be more uniion activities or more bankruptcies and sell outs to (foreign?) companies. So voting in a union electon was, is, and will be serious enough that no matter what your stance, your vote will be important enough to be cast and it could be the decisive vote.
YRC is barely hanging on at this time. Hey, I am not going to get into the discussion regarding pro or no union. There always has been and always will be struggle between labor and management.
Let me make this prediction...the next huge issue with unions will be on the state, federal, and municipal front as voters realize that these workers are allowed very lucrative pensions in addition to their earnings that are now averaging 70% above private sector comparable jobs. The local, state, and federal governments have no incentive to control costs, at least not until now.
Nothing lasts forever. Momentum swings back and forth in nearly all opposed views. The pro union administration is making it's stand, based on enormous support received in terms of votes and $$$ in the last election. Andy Stern has moved on...he is now on the commission for a balanced budget. Wont that be interesting?
edbenton Here is a List of UNION trucking Compaines that are still running YRC Group ABF New Penn. These are the ONLY ones covered under the Master Freight Agreement with the Teamsters anymore. 30 years ago it was 200 compaines. As to the person that called my Father a Scab well he was Joined by close to 100K others during that strike in 1973. Those people were the ones that DEMANDED that the OTR trucking Idustry have Deregulation since they were blacklisted from ever getting a Teamster job again if they left the one they had. As to the NMB decsion look for ALOT more jobs to leave this nation if the Unions try to force a vote on what few heavy Indusrty companies WE HAVE LEFT. They try this at Honda Toyota they will PULL OUT faster than you can imagine.
Here is a List of UNION trucking Compaines that are still running YRC Group ABF New Penn. These are the ONLY ones covered under the Master Freight Agreement with the Teamsters anymore. 30 years ago it was 200 compaines. As to the person that called my Father a Scab well he was Joined by close to 100K others during that strike in 1973. Those people were the ones that DEMANDED that the OTR trucking Idustry have Deregulation since they were blacklisted from ever getting a Teamster job again if they left the one they had.
As to the NMB decsion look for ALOT more jobs to leave this nation if the Unions try to force a vote on what few heavy Indusrty companies WE HAVE LEFT. They try this at Honda Toyota they will PULL OUT faster than you can imagine.
All i have to say then is let them go head back to japan . and take the cars and trucks with you, but in reality they wont pull out and leave and they wont stop the unions from orginizing . and the unions are getting stronger every day slowly but are getting the job done.
Oh and if you look back in history those so called toyota that are supposed to be the best built cars i keep laughing at the people who buy that crap. the biggest recalls have always been toyota people buy that junk throw american jobs away and then cry when the bank fore closes on your house. they deserve what they get, buy american and keep your house and your job, You guys want jobs buy american support american buisnesses and the market will come back
blue streak 1OK guys: 1. The old rule only applied to elections under the Railway Labor Act which is for the RRs and Airlines only. The labor act the rest apply to _______? has always been this rule. Note: UPS under National mediation act not Railway labor act which FED EX is under.
OK guys:
1. The old rule only applied to elections under the Railway Labor Act which is for the RRs and Airlines only. The labor act the rest apply to _______? has always been this rule. Note: UPS under National mediation act not Railway labor act which FED EX is under.
The Butler Selector, I think the point is they never should be counted.
James, I quite agree, and thought I had made it clear..? Otherwise, I don't follow you here.
-Crandell
2. Right to work laws do not apply under Railway labor act. If a union is voted in at your company you have to join no matter what state or territory you live in or at least pay equivalent in lieu of dues but not for political contributions. RR unions generally require you to join within 60 days or get fired. The airline unions are not usually that adamant.
3. There are many different rules both good and bad to both acts but whatever I feel all union memberships should have common rules through out the various industries of the country not separate rules. Fed EX and UPS fight this out every once in awhile.in Congress.
.
kolechovskihttp://finance.yahoo.com/news/Rule-change-favors-unions-at-apf-2539152976.html?x=0
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Rule-change-favors-unions-at-apf-2539152976.html?x=0
snip... changed a 76-year-old rule on union elections. ...snip...
The new rule, announced by the three-member National Mediation Board, would recognize a union if a simple majority of workers who cast ballots approve organizing. The previous rule required a majority of the entire work force to favor unionizing. That meant workers choosing not to vote at all were effectively counted as "no" votes. ...snip
[emphasis added JMC]
henry6It is incumbant on both sides of a voting issue to present their case and urge their proponents to vote. The concept of not voting means a "no" vote is self defeating so anyone who thinks like that is actually voting for the opposition or at least giving the opposition a chance to win. If there were to be even a 90% turnout for a reprsentatation election in a shop of 100, 50 or fewer votes could determine the outcome. If either side is not that interested in voting it's full force, then either they are hypocrits or otherwise deserve the loss. So, this is not a pro union victory unless the anti union group is hypocritical of their convictions, or too lazy or otherwise not promted to vote. Likewise for the pro union point of view. Its like putting your vote where your mouth is.
It is incumbant on both sides of a voting issue to present their case and urge their proponents to vote. The concept of not voting means a "no" vote is self defeating so anyone who thinks like that is actually voting for the opposition or at least giving the opposition a chance to win. If there were to be even a 90% turnout for a reprsentatation election in a shop of 100, 50 or fewer votes could determine the outcome. If either side is not that interested in voting it's full force, then either they are hypocrits or otherwise deserve the loss. So, this is not a pro union victory unless the anti union group is hypocritical of their convictions, or too lazy or otherwise not promted to vote. Likewise for the pro union point of view. Its like putting your vote where your mouth is.
selectorhenry6...if you don't vote why should you be counted? My point precisely. And if it should be counted in a binary system of yes or no, to which camp should it be assigned, and under what criteria?-Crandell
henry6...if you don't vote why should you be counted?
My point precisely. And if it should be counted in a binary system of yes or no, to which camp should it be assigned, and under what criteria?
My dad worked in a non-union shop for thirty years. Over that time, organized labor tried to get voted in a number of times. Those time were never pretty at that shop. One of the things pointed out to the workforce by the organizers was that if you didn't vote it was the same as voting "no." I was told the last time a union tried to get in and failed, the union got the majority of the cast votes but only about a third of the workers cast a ballot. After a time, once the dust had settled, when asked why someone didn't cast a vote, often was heard, "I voted no."
In this case, the workforce was educated to the fact that no vote was a vote "no." They exercised their right to vote no by not voting. I am not saying the rule was right. Does the rule change not give a union an edge until the re-education of the workforce? After all, for 76-years they were taught no vote equals a vote "no."
James
Henry: I do not agree with everything in the editorial, nor do I agree with everything you believe either although you make some good points... I was employed in two different manufacturing companies in the 80's that unions were attempting to organize the employees. I was in management at one place and in the bargaining unit at the other. There were bad practices by union & management. (In my opinion.). When I was in the bargaining unit, the Steelworkers handed out over 100 cards as we left the plant. We had about 190 workers at the time. The Steelworkers petitioned the Labor Board to certify the union based only on cards distributed. Then my employer hired a union-buster to speak to us about the bad things that could happen. This went on for weeks. Finally the reps went back to Pittsburgh and my boss fired everyone that campaigned for the union on company property. At that time, the settlement from the Sunshine Mine disaster was on my mind.
I must say that the members of this site ( me included) have been very well behaved on this topic, there was a point where it was touchy and i must honestly say i dont think its over, but we have not gone into name calling and back stabbing. and while i know that it can go in the toilot quick lets keep our heads and work thru it .I promise I will not go for the throat. unless it becomes nessesary.
In short all i am saying is thank you for a good showing, and i would like for it to keep going this way the feelings and veiw points are being exspressed with out people fighting . thanks
Wabash
Henry you go man. CAN I GET A AMEN
Zug- amen to you to . PTL have mercy amen.
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