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What can engineers do?

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Posted by ValleyX on Friday, January 15, 2010 11:35 AM

yellowducky

Things are sure different than when I worked on the B & O back in the early 70's.

We didn't have cell phones (they were outside) or laptops (what about lap-bottoms?)

CB's were illegal for train handling back then, but probably about half the train crew used their own walkie-talkies, and even loaned their's to a Trainmaster or Road Forman of Engines if asked.

The only real no-no was not having a RR approved time piece if an official asked for your Watch Card. 

As one who railroaded then and is still at it for a little while longer, you cannot not speak more truthful words than, "Things sure are different. . ." 

Never got asked for a watch card on the N&W, though, I only knew one old conductor who kept his up.

There's a lot of other things that used to be done that aren't anymore, we don't even need to go there, maybe when I'm safely retired.

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, January 15, 2010 11:09 AM

In my line of work we don't have people running around worrying about whether or not someone is using a cellphone. I've enough issues seeing that the worker is there and was doing their job. I trust others to use their common sense---I know I know---to not use cell phones while at work for personal reasons. Unless in an emergency.

Maybe trust is rare-----or is it medium rare-----oh bother---

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Posted by wabash1 on Friday, January 15, 2010 4:52 AM

I didnt say it had to be important i just wanted to know who called, and if there is an emergency at home i want to know the family can call and leave the message then when i stop i can retrieve it. Oh and dont say call the dispatcher and have them get ahold of me.that dont work.

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:02 PM

If they didn't leave a message, then it must not be important....

 

Seems like a lot of work to skirt the regulations (but maybe that's just me).

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by wabash1 on Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:18 PM

kolechovski

Why would it matter if a cell phone rings?  It only matters if you answer it, right?  As for newspapers, why would it matter if it was out?  Even in the trash?  You could legitimitely have brought it with you on your way to work, had it with you (like in your bag) while comign aboard, not wasting time to find another trash can elsewhere.  Then, once on the engine, you could have simply unpacked ti while looking for other stuff within, or thrown it away then.  If they don't catch you reading it, how can they prove that you're actually breaking the rule?

But on what Wabash and others said, I'm sure there are plenty of crookeds looking for trumped-up charges like that.  I can't imagine what they get from it, but it is amazing the lengths some of them will go.  Still, innocent until proven guilty, right?  Let them go before a board and present actual proof of wrongdoing.  Most of them would fail, and after enough failures, would have grounds for being dismissed, right?  After all, they are being counterproductive...

spoken as a true non-railroader, In the railroad world the more stuff a trainmaster catches or trumps up. It shows his worth and he advances from this, it got so bad at one time that trainmasters was stabbing each other in the back for recognition, and remember this is railroad not the real world you are guilty til they prove you even more guilty. The railroads dont care about moving frieght they are concerned about your saftey

Just so you know If the phone rings your in violation, if the phone is on your in violation, Zug and Valley I never said it wasnt in violation i said how they gonna catch you if they have no rights to your phone and no rights in your grip. why have phone on because if someone calls and does not leave a message there is a record of who called if phone is off there is no record.

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Posted by yellowducky on Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:42 AM

Things are sure different than when I worked on the B & O back in the early 70's.

We didn't have cell phones (they were outside) or laptops (what about lap-bottoms?)

CB's were illegal for train handling back then, but probably about half the train crew used their own walkie-talkies, and even loaned their's to a Trainmaster or Road Forman of Engines if asked.

The only real no-no was not having a RR approved time piece if an official asked for your Watch Card. 

FDM TRAIN up a child in the way he should go...Proverbs22:6 Garrett, home of The Garrett Railroaders, and other crazy people. The 5 basic food groups are: candy, poptarts, chocolate, pie, and filled donuts !
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Posted by ValleyX on Thursday, January 14, 2010 10:29 AM

It matters because, if you're moving or if a crewmember is on the ground or engaged on some on-duty function, such as copying new additions to a dispatcher bulletin, it's supposed to be turned off.  So, if it rings, it's a violation.

Same goes for the newspaper but I'm not worrying about an old one from another town some distance away. 

But on what Wabash and others said, I'm sure there are plenty of crookeds looking for trumped-up charges like that.  I can't imagine what they get from it, but it is amazing the lengths some of them will go.  Still, innocent until proven guilty, right?  Let them go before a board and present actual proof of wrongdoing.  Most of them would fail, and after enough failures, would have grounds for being dismissed, right?  After all, they are being counterproductive...

Without saying much, the railroad is not like the rest of the world.  Not that I'd know much about the rest of the world.

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Posted by kolechovski on Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:49 AM

Why would it matter if a cell phone rings?  It only matters if you answer it, right?  As for newspapers, why would it matter if it was out?  Even in the trash?  You could legitimitely have brought it with you on your way to work, had it with you (like in your bag) while comign aboard, not wasting time to find another trash can elsewhere.  Then, once on the engine, you could have simply unpacked ti while looking for other stuff within, or thrown it away then.  If they don't catch you reading it, how can they prove that you're actually breaking the rule?

But on what Wabash and others said, I'm sure there are plenty of crookeds looking for trumped-up charges like that.  I can't imagine what they get from it, but it is amazing the lengths some of them will go.  Still, innocent until proven guilty, right?  Let them go before a board and present actual proof of wrongdoing.  Most of them would fail, and after enough failures, would have grounds for being dismissed, right?  After all, they are being counterproductive...

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Thursday, January 14, 2010 7:39 AM

There's material for a good comedy bit or scene in a movie here.  The screenwriters in Hollywood - let alone ordinary people, like most of us here - couldn't make this stuff up.  Too bad an equivalent effort wasn't being devoted to getting the trains over the road, improving working conditions, beating the competition, etc.  As someone once said something like, ''The amount of fire directed against each other, dwarfs that which is directed against the common enemy''.

- Paul North.

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by wabash1 on Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:12 AM

ValleyX

If that newspaper is from another town and a couple of days old, I'm not going to worry about it.  I've have no opportunity or no means to get to Atlanta or St. Louis or some such town in the last couple of days and I'll make that argument.  However, if that newspaper is local, I'm not leaving it on the engine, not even in the trashbag.  I've heard about the management so desperate to nail a crew that they go, in essence, dumpster-diving.  Such a job they have!

As for the rest of it, I fail to see why you leave your phone on, Wabash, if someone wants to leave you a message, it'll be there whether your phone was on or off.  Why risk it? 

Even if it is the USA today I am not taking someone else violation, We was getting trumped up charges against us just on newspapers alone and so we get on the radio and tell the yard master to have the shop come clean the engine, they told us to bag it and throw it out the window they pick it up later, every train was cleaned like that the yard was nasty and we was instructed not to throw trash out anymore and the trumped up charges dropped also. If they think they going to get me for someone elses newspaper then we are going to investigation.

As far as the phone goes what am I risking? Nothing they can not get into your grip for any reason unless you give them permission and you dont haft to show them your phone either, if you do then you deserve to get busted. but yes they did start calling your cell number to see if it would ring . they have yet to catch me. but ive been burned in the past by crooked trainmasters also, anytime one of those ( edit ) [ censered] come out to get on my engine the digital recorder is going, and it picks up real good,

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Posted by ValleyX on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:23 PM

If that newspaper is from another town and a couple of days old, I'm not going to worry about it.  I've have no opportunity or no means to get to Atlanta or St. Louis or some such town in the last couple of days and I'll make that argument.  However, if that newspaper is local, I'm not leaving it on the engine, not even in the trashbag.  I've heard about the management so desperate to nail a crew that they go, in essence, dumpster-diving.  Such a job they have!

As for the rest of it, I fail to see why you leave your phone on, Wabash, if someone wants to leave you a message, it'll be there whether your phone was on or off.  Why risk it? 

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Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 4:46 PM

wabash1

jeffhergert

We've been talking about electronic devices, so here's a change in discussion.

You get on an engine.  You find a newspaper lying on the window ledge in front of the conductor's console.  The newspaper is 3 days old, what to you do?

Jeff 

Other than being mad that some guys think everyone else is their personal maid It dont bother me, the paper is from some other town and their is no rule against it being on the engine anyways, the rule is reading it is wrong possession is not.

This question appears on a rules study guide.

The rule(s) applicable are GCOR 1.10 and Safety Rule 70.11 (housekeeping).  The answer they want is properly disposing it.  We may have non-duty related reading material enclosed in our personnal luggage.  If it is out and easily accessible, they figure we are reading it.

Throwing it in the trash bag may not be enough.  There was one manager who would look into the toilet compartment and go thru the trash looking for newspapers.  If he found one he would then cite the crew for violating 1.10, even for one in the trash. 

Jeff

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 4:46 PM

joesap1
Too bad they don't make the fast food drive throughs for trains (haha).

I dunno - seems like I've read numerous accounts in Trains over the years of crews partaking in fast food from a suitable establishment near the tracks, or (before the whole cell phone bruhaha) calling ahead for a pizza to be delivered when they arrive at a certain point...

Some of our local crews have been known to stop adjacent to a convenience store (right next to the tracks) for refreshment.  Ice cream sure is good on a hot day!

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Posted by joesap1 on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 3:34 PM

We can eat, and I certainly do. Too bad they don't make the fast food drive throughs for trains (haha).

Anyway, it is against the rules to have any other electronic devices, with the exception of the company cell phone with a push-to-talk feature. 

I find myself singing alot since I often alone in the cab.

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Posted by wabash1 on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:36 PM

jeffhergert

We've been talking about electronic devices, so here's a change in discussion.

You get on an engine.  You find a newspaper lying on the window ledge in front of the conductor's console.  The newspaper is 3 days old, what to you do?

Jeff 

Other than being mad that some guys think everyone else is their personal maid It dont bother me, the paper is from some other town and their is no rule against it being on the engine anyways, the rule is reading it is wrong possession is not.

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Posted by wabash1 on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 2:29 PM

zugmann

wabash1

The whole 30 page report yes ive read it and even had to print it. have a copy of it right here, and yes I know about the editing the post, that is just the pits. All I am saying is they cant prove its on so mine is never turned off. i use mine when i am allowed to ( hence what can i do)

Question, phone is in your pocket turned on.  FRA man or RFE,, TM, whatever is riding.  phone rings.. (maybe someone dialed a wrong number). Now what?

 

I keep mine off while moving.  I don't go as far as putting it in my grip, though. 

Let it ring or at least tothe person on the other end. My cell phone is always on vibrate or ringer is off, its on so i can see who called and my message also states that im not going to pay 25k to the feds. even at home its on vibrate.

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:32 PM

zugmann

wabash1

The whole 30 page report yes ive read it and even had to print it. have a copy of it right here, and yes I know about the editing the post, that is just the pits. All I am saying is they cant prove its on so mine is never turned off. i use mine when i am allowed to ( hence what can i do)

Question, phone is in your pocket turned on.  FRA man or RFE,, TM, whatever is riding.  phone rings.. (maybe someone dialed a wrong number). Now what?

 

I keep mine off while moving.  I don't go as far as putting it in my grip, though. 

 

Oh oh...NOW I know why that guy was so mad at me when I mistakenly dailed his number..

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:17 PM

I'll make a guess about the newspaper, but with assumptions:  the rules forbid non-railroad/regulatory reading material to be available to the crew members while they are on the locomotive (I have no idea if this is true, it's just an assumption for what follows..).  If so, then there is a violation, and it should be easy to conduct an investigation to find out which of 12-15 people (by that time) might have broken the rules.  But then the problems start... Big Smile The last crew are the ones accountable for leaving the inculpating evidence.  Was it the conductor who left the item, or another crewmember who placed it there for convenience while she/he attended to something else, and then forgot it?  How would you prove one way or the other?  Or, was it someone in servicing who carried it up to the conductor's station and left it by mistake?

-Crandell 

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:21 AM

jeffhergert

We've been talking about electronic devices, so here's a change in discussion.

You get on an engine.  You find a newspaper lying on the window ledge in front of the conductor's console.  The newspaper is 3 days old, what to you do?

Jeff 

I'd be wondering what happened to the mechanics that they read 3 day old papers

Or was it the Toyo Shinbun

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:19 AM

zugmann
I keep mine off while moving.  I don't go as far as putting it in my grip, though. 

If I'm driving around to various clients the cell phone is off and in my briefcase. Our company allows it to be on our person but I generally tend to stuff it in my case----it's just a habit of mineSmile,Wink, & Grin

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:08 AM

wabash1

The whole 30 page report yes ive read it and even had to print it. have a copy of it right here, and yes I know about the editing the post, that is just the pits. All I am saying is they cant prove its on so mine is never turned off. i use mine when i am allowed to ( hence what can i do)

Question, phone is in your pocket turned on.  FRA man or RFE,, TM, whatever is riding.  phone rings.. (maybe someone dialed a wrong number). Now what?

 

I keep mine off while moving.  I don't go as far as putting it in my grip, though. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:05 AM

1.  Complain about the lousy housekeeping of the previous crew(s).

2.  See if the crossword puzzle is done...  Smile,Wink, & Grin

Considering that our rules include a provision stating that on-duty crews can only read company-related material, I could probably try to get someone in hot water, but it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

Besides, it was a three day old paper, and I really don't know who was in the locomotive.  Could have easily have been someone from mechanical...

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Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 8:43 AM

We've been talking about electronic devices, so here's a change in discussion.

You get on an engine.  You find a newspaper lying on the window ledge in front of the conductor's console.  The newspaper is 3 days old, what to you do?

Jeff 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 6:27 AM

zugmann

the full order is under the federal register wabash.  You can't have the phone on while in motion.  I'd give a link, but I'm tired of people messing (excuse me, "editing") my posts.  So people can search for themselves.

 

signed, 

an aggravated zug

 

 

  zugmann:  In all fairness-  I edited out one ******d naughty word, and replaced it with something that has the same meaning, but doesn't blatantly break our forum rules.  I then sent you a PM about it.  I send a PM anytime I edit something.  To be sure,  after reading a later post of yours about editing,  I went back and checked this post.  The only other one editing it was you.  If you have any questions about that, would you please send me a PM?  Thanks.

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Posted by wabash1 on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:26 AM

zugmann

the full order is under the federal register wabash.  You can't have the phone on while in motion.  I'd give a link, but I'm tired of people messing (excuse me, "editing") my posts.  So people can search for themselves.

 

signed, 

an aggravated zug

 

 

The whole 30 page report yes ive read it and even had to print it. have a copy of it right here, and yes I know about the editing the post, that is just the pits. All I am saying is they cant prove its on so mine is never turned off. i use mine when i am allowed to ( hence what can i do)

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Posted by ValleyX on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 4:23 AM

It's supposed to be off.  End of statement.  Wouldn't want to push it, I think I'd lose.

 

It's been an interesting discussion about what the engineer can and can't do and all I can say is, well, maybe I'd better not say THAT! 

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:12 PM

FRA Emergency Order 26

Summary thereof.

Individual railroad rules may vary, but will generally be more restrictive than the EO.

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:28 PM

-------mmmmmm--------

-------I wonder------------

-------on whose authority will I go on this?----

-------me thinks I'd go on a FRA inspectors say so-------

--------cellphone in a grip----------OFF.

As it is. In my job. When I'm on the road it stays OFF. I drive approx 5,000 miles just for work alone. I want my attention where it should be.

No need for fuss and bother with the dang thing off.

Then again---I started work in this company when we were using beepers---and trying to find ways to "forget the dang thing"-------"Oh the dog ate it"

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:14 PM

 Well... one person says you can....and one person says you can't.

 Which is it??????

 Any other Class 1 Rails care to weigh in on this???

 

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