From Trains.com News Wire:
"Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano this week suggested citizens should call law enforcement when they see someone taking a picture of "critical infrastructure." Photographing rail lines from public property remains perfectly legal, but Napolitano suggests citizens should call police anyway. "One of the things we ask people to do," Napolitano told Fox News, "is when they see something unusual, if they see, for example, somebody continually taking photographs of a piece of critical infrastructure that doesn't seem to make any sense … to report that to local law enforcement so it can be followed up on."
I've been "investigated" as "suspicious" for simply sitting along a public road and it, like TSA at airports, is yet another slam against our basic 4th Amendment rights. Ms. Napolitano's suggestion will just tie up police and sheriffs for no real reason. She tells people that if you see someone doing something that's "perfectly legal", report it anyway.
Wha...?????
I am waiting for some officious twit, on a typical Friday afternoon and evening, to start reporting to police the 50-plus railfans congregating at the Fullerton Amtrak depot. The incidence of cameras is about 1.2 per railfan.
Most of us carry wallet cards identifying us as members of BNSF's Citizens for Rail Security. I wonder if that will add to the confusion.
The local Fullerton police have jurisdiction. I have never had official contact with them but others say they are sensible concerning railfans.
Jack
Jack_S I am waiting for some officious twit, on a typical Friday afternoon and evening, to start reporting to police the 50-plus railfans congregating at the Fullerton Amtrak depot.
Or Deshler, or Folkston, or Cresson, or Rochelle, or any of the dozens of railfan Meccas around the country.
I will say that, while I didn't speak to any of them directly, the local police in Deshler seem to understand the railfan thing, not to mention knowing some of the regulars.
It's great to be aware of your surroundings, but understanding what they mean is important, too.
Consider that it's common knowledge in 9-1-1 centers that handle cell calls that a single incident on a busy interstate will generate 10-12 calls. The local roads aren't much better, and the callers usually don't know where they are, or even what they are seeing. Most wouldn't know "heavy smoke" if they saw it, yet your backyard bonfire gets reported as a "possible structure fire with heavy smoke showing." I get so tired of responding to that junk...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
This will all come to a head, and likely end, when a flood of such calls about railfans come flowing into law enforcement and they (law enforcement) find that virtually all of the calls (if not 100%) are false alarms related to railfans innocently exercising our hobby.
What should be done is to have a call for all railfans to be anyplace trackside at precisely 12N EDT, Saturday October 3rd. with cameras. The more public the area, the more non-railroad property, the better. We can call it a Photo OP IN. No beligerence, no arguing, no ruckus. Just everyone be there with camera whether or not you take a picture or not.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I like this idea. Can it be organized?
As long as the fear mongers keep constantly telling us that everyone is out to get us and that all middle easterners want all westerners dead you can expect this panic driven foolishness to continue and to continually get worse.
I understand that the threat level has been raised to periwinkle.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
OK - I'm one of the last people to start yelping that homeland security policies are an attempt to take away our personal freedoms, but this is too much. I can understand the extra security at airports (mostly because I refuse to fly anymore), but this kinda BS statement by Ms. Napolitano is way off the deep end by suggesting people call the cops even though someone is clearly not breaking the law. That's ridiculous in the least.
She needs to get treated for cronic foot-in-mouth disease she's afflicted with - she's already insulted veterans and now she's indirectly coming after legitimate hobbyists.
IMO, much of this is nothing more than the government (at any level) giving the appearance of doing something when they really aren't. "Yes sir, we're on the ball, on top of it, don't worry." When in reality the truth is closer to, "Hopefully the vast majority won't find out that we're clueless, inept, and dysfunctional on our best day."
I see this on the job too. Many things done for "safety" that really may not be a bad idea, but don't make things much safer. It just looks like the railroad is "proactive."
Jeff
PS At a railfan meeting last night I learned that the new UP high bridge west of Boone is equipped with security cameras. Also the county road underneath the old and new bridge is open to the public again.
eolafan This will all come to a head, and likely end, when a flood of such calls about railfans come flowing into law enforcement and they (law enforcement) find that virtually all of the calls (if not 100%) are false alarms related to railfans innocently exercising our hobby.
Not to hijack the thread but look at the time/date/year that eolafan posted at. I smell some kind of conspiracy here....lol
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
henry6What should be done is to have a call for all railfans to be anyplace trackside at precisely 12N EDT, Saturday October 3rd. with cameras. The more public the area, the more non-railroad property, the better. We can call it a Photo OP IN. No beligerence, no arguing, no ruckus. Just everyone be there with camera whether or not you take a picture or not.
Any specific reason for that date?
Very good idea, it's about time WE (railfans) shouldn't be singled out as a "Terrorist Threat".
Just because we "hang out" at any location with a camera in hand, or around our necks doesn't mean we're going to do something nasty. (hurt other people, or destroy infrastructure.)
Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!!
Napolitano makes perfect sense to me...report everything you see and nothing will be missed!! A dog is crapping on someone's lawn?... call the police!! Your neighbours toe nails aren't painted today?... Veeerrrrrry suspicious!!!! Maybe she's converted over to "those guys".. make that call! OMG... a cloud in the shape of a dagger!!!! That's a 911 for sure.. Napolitano is the dumbest thing ever to walk upright... we may all be doomed.
henry6 What should be done is to have a call for all railfans to be anyplace trackside at precisely 12N EDT, Saturday October 3rd. with cameras. The more public the area, the more non-railroad property, the better. We can call it a Photo OP IN. No beligerence, no arguing, no ruckus. Just everyone be there with camera whether or not you take a picture or not.
Henry,
While I like your idea on general principals, it is probably not too good in practice because calls will go not to brain dead Homeland Security but to local police. About all you are likely to accomplish is to get local police, who have far better things to do, mad at you. You might even get ticketed for false 911 report, and I would not want to rely on the "Homeland Security told me to do it" defense.
Mac
JIM; You are spot on!
Comment #1---YOUR TIMING IS IMPECCABLE !
Comment #2-- "...NEVER LET A GOOD CRISIS GO TO WASTE!..."
I have just about given up on the subject.
The scariest part is the assumption that someone who is planning a terrorist attack has to go out to the target site with a Cannon Digital Rebel and a 300MM or larger lens and start snaping shots from every possible angle.
Terrorist are evil or insane, but they aren't necessarily idiots.
Oh yes, don't tell anyone about the 'birdseye" feature of Bing Maps.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Oct 3 picked because it would give everyone a couple of weeks to decide what they want to do, I'm busy the next three Saturadys, and so I just picked the date out of thin air. Figure Sat. is the best day rather than a weekday when all good and prosperous Americans are busy at work and rather than a Sunday when all good Americans are at Church; yeah, Saturday works best.
We will do nothing. We will just stand by viewing a railroad track or tracks and maybe taking pictures of trains if we wish. The alarmed public will be the ones to jam the 911 phone lines telliing whoever answers that the lady from Amtrak told them to call if they see people taking pictures of trains. Let the police take it from there. If they have been informed by Amtrak and Homeland Security about the threat of people taking pictures, they will report back to Big Brother and Sister; if they haven't heard from them, it will just be interesting to see how it all plays out. If enough photographers are caught and reported by the general public at the same time it might just be enough to underscore the foolishness of these laws. All I am saying is that we've talked about this and talked about this and now here is an opportunity to do something that does not take much effort, does not put anybody at risk, does not destroy property, but just might show them up. I don't care if somebody else wants to spearhead it, I just suggested it as some way to make our plight heard. Evidently they don't read our posts here at Trains.com!
I'm all for that...exercise your freedoms..don't take them for granted. Hopefully Big Brother will see the folly in his ways..but don't count on it.
I'm in - 10/3 is good for me (I have TiVo to record football). I can get out to Isanti where there's a perfectly legal public parking lot right next to the BNSF Hinckley Sub and my favorite gourmet coffee shop just up the street.
I said this as a sarcastic remark. But, hey, I'll do it. It would be neat to hear that several hundred or even several thousand railfans across the country went out to take pictures at the same time on the same day. Even if no one calls Homeland Security, maybe there would be enough good precise minute shots for a page or so in Trains! Say Saturday, October 3, 2009 11:45AM to 12:15PM Eastern,10:45AM-11:15 AM Central, 9:45AM-10:15AM Mountain, and 8:45AM to 9:15AM Pacific time there were people with cameras somewhere near a railroad, any railroad, anyplace at random. Do it legally (?) on public property or your own property, NOT ON RAILROAD PROPERTY, don't have to take a picture if you don't want to, just have a camera with you, don't have to confront anybody or say anything to anybody. Even if nothing happens or gets reported to anyone, the show of force (farce) might be worth it. Easterners can have lunch while doing it, west coasters can finish breakfast just in time, the in betweeners can enjoy a coffee break, and you don't have to take up your whole Saturday, just as much of that half hour as possible.!
then you wonder why the railroaders hate foamers . you guys are the first to complain when the law comes to your spots and questiions you and the same guys who complain when railroaders turn you in. then you guys are the same guys who female dog and moan when you here of someone screwing up and making a bad name for foamers , then you have the nerve to turn railroaders in on the abuse button here for your own fantisy to continue.
With all that said my point is the same guys ( all you guys posting) Are attempting to go out and draw alot of attention to your self and really set yourselfs back 20years and if you come out in the swarms that your trying to do so you can prove your points, then great i Hope everyone of you go to jail ( for your cause yea right) and i will help the police arrest the ones in my area. this is not a game. You want to be accepted do it the right way not as a bunch of vigalanties . No im not parinoid and i dont belive the world is ending. but when i see groups of people standing track side its not ussually a good thing and most generally ends up being trouble.
I think you're wrong, Wabash. I think doing this would point out the absurdity of the attitude toward rail photogrphy. I am not proposing we be on railroad property just nearby like the law says. If I thought you lived near me, I'd tell you where I would be so you could have the fun of reporting me to Homeland Security. Yes this is an attempt to get "alot of attention" because that is the idea of protesting the rule. If we all shut up, or kept the conversation to ourselves here, then who would know the rediculousness of the rule of no photographing trains. If we can't photograph trains, then what will the majority of today's railfans find to do in the name of railfanning. It is just a chance to make a point. I actually doubt that anyone would be reported to show further how absurd the rule is.
Phoebe Vet As long as the fear mongers keep constantly telling us that everyone is out to get us and that all middle easterners want all westerners dead you can expect this panic driven foolishness to continue and to continually get worse. I understand that the threat level has been raised to periwinkle.
23 17 46 11
Just a couple of points for consideration:
1) How many people actually know about Napolitano's statement? I have a list of news websites that I peruse each morning and each evening and I watch local and national news on TV. I wouldn't know anything about this if I hadn't read about it in the Newswire.
2) Flocking to the tracks on a particular date is just asking for trouble, in my opinion. People are a lot more likely to get nervous if they see a big group doing something "unusual" than if they see just one or two people partaking in the activity. Plus, there will be some railfans who decide to take things too far and do something stupid that will get them into a whole world of hurt and shed a negative light on railfans in general. If the public sees railfans as trouble-makers, more suspicions and problems will undoubtedly arise.
3) Maybe the best way to counter this is to take a passive approach and just go on railfanning like usual. Keep going to the tracks, keep taking pictures, stay safe, and my guess is that there won't be any more problems than usual.
Willy
I agree with Willy in his above comments.
If you want to convince Homeland Security and the public that railfan activity is not unusual, I don’t think that thousands of railfans simultaneously showing up trackside with no public explanation is the way to go about it.
edblysard Phoebe Vet As long as the fear mongers keep constantly telling us that everyone is out to get us and that all middle easterners want all westerners dead you can expect this panic driven foolishness to continue and to continually get worse. I understand that the threat level has been raised to periwinkle. Periwinkle...isn't that the one where we are supposed to have a ten year supply of twinkies and five gallons of water put away in our bomb shelters "just in case"?
No; that's Saffron. Periwinkle is where you dig a moat around your house and fill it with battery acid then trade the Twinkies for cigarettes and ammunition.
Crimson is where you are authorized to make pre-emptive strikes against any neighbors who strike you as suspicious.
The port of Long Beach (CA.) is having a combination open house,tree hugger fest on 10-3. There will be free Metrolink rides and boat rides to see the harbor. There will be food and snacks,plus many eco-type exhibits. Napolitano take note. There will be many people there,most of them taking pictures of rail and port facilities. I will be one of them. When I hear "Free train ride" I'm there, regardless of who sponsors the event.
Even if a "foamer flash mob" could somehow get national recognition and actually happen, you know there are too many railfans that would not only step over the line, but they would stop to pee on it. Take *any* of the latest major rail events in the last dozen years. Even with zero tolerance for trespassing, there are always a good number of fans crawling all over private property and on the tracks just to get that "perfect shot". Such actions would pretty much destroy the intended message that railfans are a law-abiding, responsible crowd.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Willy2 Just a couple of points for consideration: 1) How many people actually know about Napolitano's statement? I have a list of news websites that I peruse each morning and each evening and I watch local and national news on TV. I wouldn't know anything about this if I hadn't read about it in the Newswire. 2) Flocking to the tracks on a particular date is just asking for trouble, in my opinion. People are a lot more likely to get nervous if they see a big group doing something "unusual" than if they see just one or two people partaking in the activity. Plus, there will be some railfans who decide to take things too far and do something stupid that will get them into a whole world of hurt and shed a negative light on railfans in general. If the public sees railfans as trouble-makers, more suspicions and problems will undoubtedly arise. 3) Maybe the best way to counter this is to take a passive approach and just go on railfanning like usual. Keep going to the tracks, keep taking pictures, stay safe, and my guess is that there won't be any more problems than usual.
Actually, Willy, you and others are proving part of my point of the facetiousness of both the photography rules and who we are. But I am not asking for a single large gathering. Even if 10,000 people wanted to do this, they could be so spread all over that it wouldn't really be a mob scene, further underscoring the rule's stupidity. And you're right, too, Willy, in that the media has really not paid any attention to it...perhaps all the more reason for railfans to do something to bring this to the attention of others. So if we do nothing, what is the next right that is going to be taken from us? Under what banner or excuse would it be done? No, the more I think about this, the less sarcastic I feel and the more I would encourage railfans to step forward that day and take a picture of a train. Not a mob assembly, not breaking any laws, taking a picture from a legal and safe location of a train. And if its an Amtrak train, I suppose all the better. No organization, no signs, no assembly, no fussing. Just go near a railroad track with a camera in hand and if a train comes along, take a picture. Then go home or to church or to a football game or whatever you would normally do at that time on Saturday.
henry6 ... not breaking any laws, taking a picture from a legal and safe location of a train.
... not breaking any laws, taking a picture from a legal and safe location of a train.
Yeah, like that would happen.
zugmann Even if a "foamer flash mob"
Even if a "foamer flash mob"
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