Plastic Ties?!?

[mudchicken]

Outside Gage Right!

Larry - You are too quick. (Took a picture of a "step joint" yesterday in Trinidad to appeal Ed's call to arms!)..Gues I'll go find a compromise thermite weld now.

MC

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Okay, guys, what we need now is someone to find and photograph a compromise joint, (hint, common in yard throats, and industrial leads).

Ask, and ye shall receive (albeit a after a while). Note that this is on a mainline (CSX Montreal Secondary) adjacent to a road crossing. The joint takes quite a beating - I've seen it flex a couple of inches under each wheel of a train...


Nora asked the function of the plastic bottle. Probably just for ambience....

[mudchicken]

FYI:

(1) There currently is a shortage of creosoted timber ties nationwide,
(2) Best wood tie out there is an azobe tie (african hardwood), no preservative & hard as concrete.
(3) Glass silicate may replace creosote if they can perfect the process. Phillips66 is out with a new non-creosote, non-borate preservative. Testing goes as we speak.
(4) Most preservatives have penetration problems into the wood fibers..
(5) Like Tree, I do NOT want to be anywhere near a structural plastic beam (OK in compression with lots of extra support, lousy in tension)....Joist spacing to support a TREX plastic lumber deck is considerably less than wood as a for instance.
(6) Concrete ties in the swamps on questionable subgrades? Not around me! Outta here, bye-bye! (Try to find the track section after it oozes into the mud!)

[d4fal]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Norfolk Southern

Why dont they just stick with the old way with wooden ties? But I guess it is better because with wooden ties they break a lot and they cause problems. So I guess its just for safety :)

Also cost and availability. If you think about it, a railroad uses a lot of ties in its system, and the availability of wooden ties is not there any more.

Another thing is, the creosote is a very hazardous chemical. It is one of those chemicals that in the future could be banned. They need to look for alternate ways to get away from this hazardous chemical.

[Anonymous]

It looks like Morristown & Erie installed them in my back yard in Roseland , Bill

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey gang, we're famous!!! This topic was chosen as a feature for the email update!!! Thanks Mark and Bergie!!!!

[Anonymous]

The ties in question are a new type of composite material that includes among other things ground glass and used pulverized tires. They are injection molded by some very large and sophisticated machines. One of these machines was manufactured in Salt Lake City, UT and sent to Texas recently.

The Union Pacific Rairoad has oredered one million ties at approximately $55.00 per tie and plans to replace ties in the sourthern region of their rairoad in areas where wooden ties especially are beginning to deteriorate.

These ties are not like the old "plastic" ties. They are extremely tough and durable with an estimated life span of over 200 years. They have a "memory" in that they can be hand or machine spiked and the material will shrink around the spike and hold them in extremely well. The ties will resemble a wooden tie in color and texture having an ingrained pattern to give the ties "tooth" that will prevent movement or slippage in the ballast. Each tie weighs in at over 250 plus pounds and can be made in various sizes and lengths. (Compared to other types of ties the cost factor is getting close with $45.00 a tie being average in price for the others.)

I would look for many more of these types of ties in the future with the cost of wooden tie replacement going up, and the cost of the newer plastic ties going down especially with more railroads starting to use them .

The potential envionmental savings brought about by using recycled componants with the added benefit of being less damaging to the environment than their chemically preserved predesessors, plus the fact that they won't need replacing for an extremelly long period of time, would seem to make very good economic sense.

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
Of course the railroads don't mess with undertable mounting, and perfer to go with more of the Atlas style machine, only scaled down.

They used to hide the switch machines in a nearby building... ;-)

[Anonymous]

I wonder how much plastic is in a composit tie? How much does it wiegh in relation to concrete or wood? How and where are they made? Just the specs and only the specs if you don`t mind![2c][(-D][swg]

[Anonymous]

I work for the local transit authority here in Utah, and we are expanding our light rail car yard. One of the new tracks added on to the side of the current building is being laid with plastic ties. It will be covered with a concrete floor, but right now they look JUST like weathered Atlas code 100 flex track (black ties with silver track!!!) I understand some of the new yard storage tracks will be done with these ties as well. The whole yard is currently reused wood ties (from the original track our mainline now occupies) and spikes with jointed rail. It feels just like your operating over some Atlas snap track! Our mainline is all concrete ties (with the exception of switches which are wood, and even some of those have been converted to concrete ties (another story all together!) ) with welded rail. The only joints are switches and IJ's (insulated joints, for signaling purposes) so the ride is very SMOOOOOOTH.

[bobgroh]

Here is some more background on the Cedrite tie. It was made by Harmon Industries (Kansas City area - now a part of GE Transportation Systems) back in the late 80's and early 90's. It was really a pretty neat idea - they used old ties, ground them up, mixed with an epoxy like material, placed the mixture (with a stiffner) in molds under pressure and then cured the mixture. They had a lot of problems with consistency - yields were a real problem. Plus machinery problems. After a couple of years and a bunch of money, Harmon threw in the towel and abandoned the process. When the ties were good, they were pretty darn good. Plus they used up old ties which, because the old ties were loaded with creosote, were a hazardous material and difficult to dispose of in other fashions. I believe, at least for the Cedrite/Harmon ties, that conventional fastening means were used (i.e. spikes, etc). Would be interested in more details on the 'plastic' ones reported in this thread.

[UPTRAIN]

I have seen insulated rail joiners on grain elevator sidings next to crossings where they rejoin the mainline...the locals can pull up there close to the mainline near the crossings and not trip the gates and lights.

[UPTRAIN]

True...railroads are needing more crews which means they must pay them so they are going to have to save money to pay crews with so they will maybe stick with wood for a few more years. UP just made a major line rehabilitation project on the Desoto sub and Chester subs...over 2 million ties replaced...all wood.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainheartedguy

Id like to see some of these composite ties. CSX is slowly converting to Concrete in Maryland because unlike the wood ties, which need replaced every 7 years, they last 25 years. How long would composite ties last.

Major problem with concrete ties is they don't survive derailments. All must be replaced. With wood, a pretty good percentage will survive all but major derailments with some digs and gouges. Another issue with conmcrete is it doesn't work well in swampy areas as the concrete ties tend to settle more in soft soil conditions due to their weight.

Concrete, plastic and steel ties are all significantly more expensive than wood.

LC

[UPTRAIN]

They don't rot or crack...go for it.

[rrnut282]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traingeek087


The plastic ties would fill in so if there was a flood or a wash out, the ties wouldn't warp and such.

The crews will love those plastic ties in a flood as they double as a life preserver.[:D]

[traingeek087]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Norfolk Southern

Why dont they just stick with the old way with wooden ties? But I guess it is better because with wooden ties they break a lot and they cause problems. So I guess its just for safety :)

I believe the Union Pacific was going to use some of them down in Luisiana. They were having problems with the wooden ties because of all of the swamp lands down there. As you know wood and water are not a good mix for a railroad. The plastic ties would fill in so if there was a flood or a wash out, the ties wouldn't warp and such. I believe their environmenally friendly too, as the creosote you know is not.

[Anonymous]

here in georgia a law prohibits use of creasote in ties utility poles and lumber recently. there are env. safe alt. to creasote(tar). to keep buggies out, keep from rottin,last longer.

[corwinda]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I'm not sure you can buy Cuprinol any more.... You occasionally see a green power pole, but black is much more common.

Interesting fact: Here in Oregon the local utility is having to replace those green poles before regular creosote treated poles a lot older.

[tree68]

As "bad" as creosote might be, a lot of the other wood preservatives that have been proposed are even worse. I'm not sure you can buy Cuprinol any more.... You occasionally see a green power pole, but black is much more common.

As a firefighter, the idea of plastic structural members in a building are a huge red flag, even more than trusses. We know the general characteristics of wood - especially that it will hold its shape until it's burned pretty well through. Plastic is going to melt under heat, not to mention how much hotter the fire will burn. If I pull up in front of your house built with plastic 2 by's, you can pretty well figure it's going to the ground. No way I'm sending my people inside.

[TH&B]

There are types of wood that lasts longer as ties, but it also takes alot longer to grow the trees.

[edblysard]

Had a discussion with a freind of mind about a releated subject, the amount of lumber used in constructing new houses.
His postiton was that we should recycle plastic products into beams, studs, sideing and such, saving trees...
My point was, you have to burn or use a tremendous amout on enegry, add even more polution to the air to grind up, heat and re-form the products, and lastly, at some point in time, you have to put the end product back into the enviroment.
Houses, cars, clothes and railroad ties at some point, reach the end of usabilty, they end up in a landfill somewhere.
I would think that instead of a land fill full of old tires, no matter what shape they have, round or square, one would prefer a pile of wooden ties, that degrade and breakdown much faster.
Yes, they have creosote in them, but take a look at the content of old tires.

Ed

[Anonymous]

dont need to cut more trees down for sticks(ties).not enough trees. solution,grind up old tires and melt dem down to ties. da,da!

[edblysard]

Okay, guys, what we need now is someone to find and photograph a compromise joint, (hint, common in yard throats, and industrial leads).

We have steel, concrete and wood ties in our yard, and are going back to the wood ties for a simple reason.

If you derail onto concrete ties, they break and crumble.

Steel ties snap, and even though they can be welded, they end up breaking again, just beside the weld.
Steel ties also need a different sub road bed, and require extra undercutting and tamping, lots of tamping.

I have also noticed that the Pandrol clips on both steel and concrete ties seem to pop out of the clips a lot, most of the time on the outside rail in curves.

Wood ties, on the other hand, take the pounding of a slow derailment quite well, they absorb the impact with little or no damage, other than scarring the wood.

Ed

[Anonymous]

Id like to see some of these composite ties. CSX is slowly converting to Concrete in Maryland because unlike the wood ties, which need replaced every 7 years, they last 25 years. How long would composite ties last.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I kind of figured that you really knew Larry, but I'll bet it is news to many other readers here, and it is fun to share the pics.[swg]

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Let's see - flex track and sectional (panel) track are here. Snap switches can't be far behind. Getting the switch machine under the "layout" will be a challenge in most spots... I want to see the slip on rail joiners, too.....

Of course the railroads don't mess with undertable mounting, and perfer to go with more of the Atlas style machine, only scaled down.

Rail joiners don't slide on, they come in two parts and are bolted on, and yes there are even insulated ones. Here's a photo of of an insulated joiner.[;)]

Model railroading is more prototypical than you realize.[swg]

Forgot to add the silly grin at the end of my post.[:p][}:)][:o)]

I thought there might be prefabbed switches (even if they aren't 'snap' switches), as for the slip on joiners, well...[;)]

[rrnut282]

NS builds their own switch panels in Roanoke. I have seen a 16 go in in the last 3 years on various track projects. After everything is lined and leveled (sometimes before) they weld all the joints solid and remove the bars so you can end up with one continuous rail miles long on the outside rails unless signalling needs dictate otherwise. All were on wood ties, though.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Sorry MC, It's the modeler in me showing, beside, Larry said it first. [swg] You have a very good eye, that is indeed right next to a diamond. There are 8 of them, one on every rail. If I'm not mistaken, these are part of a larger system used to detect the trains, and opreate signals to protect the diamond.

This track is used very little, though the opposing route is reasonably well traveled, and now run by the CN. I believe that makes it ex Soo, ex WC. The little used side is ex NP main to Duluth. The Minnesota Commercial uses it to service a single customer, a lumber yard, about 5 miles north in the town of Hugo where the line now ends. Long ago thid diamond was protected by "smash boards" though those have now been removed.