Plastic Ties?!?

[Anonymous]

I have heard of concrete and creosote soaked wood, but recent Red Line upgrades in Chicago have included what looks like plastic ties. Is this what I am seeing?

[Anonymous]

Yes. They are often called composite ties, but they are basically recycled plastic.

LC

[Big_Boy_4005]

Interesting, I wonder how they'll hold up. My guess is pretty well. I'll bet they have a lot less vibration transfer than concrete.

[vsmith]

How are the spikes inserted? Do they use screws instead? wouldnt vibration eventually lead to spikes or screws working there way out or tearing up the resin composite?

inquiring minds want to know?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yeah Vic, I was thinking about that too just after I hit the submit button. Maybe they use something similar to the system used on concrete ties, or perhaps have some kind of large bolt with a large head and washer sticking up from the bottom. Someone here knows.[8D]

By the way, is the Red Line referred to here the CTA? That would be considered light rail. Does heavy rail use plastic?

[Anonymous]

Why dont they just stick with the old way with wooden ties? But I guess it is better because with wooden ties they break a lot and they cause problems. So I guess its just for safety :)

[vsmith]

The light rail lines and the commuter lines here use concrete sleepers and the commuter trains only run on older wooden ties where they have to share the line with freight traffic.

[Anonymous]

But I live close to the NJT Mountclair Booton Line and NS HO-2 shares the track with them and they use concrete ties a lot on that line[^]

[Big_Boy_4005]

The new light rail line here is all concrete ties. I'm not sure when it is supposed to open, but it should be soon.

Last Wednesday night when my son and I came out of the dome after the Twins game we got a chance to see one of the new cars sets up close. Pretty cool!!! Then we walked a block down the sidewalk next to the tracks. We were talking about how it worked, and he asked me about the "antenna" (he's 11years old). I got a pretty good chuckle out of that once I figured out what he meant.[swg]

[jeffhergert]

I read a while back that the UP was going to try composite ties in swampy areas in Arkansas and Louisiana. I think the idea is they won't rot as fast as wooden ties and are cheaper than concrete.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Is this truth being stranger than fiction? Atlas 1:1 "nickel silver" flex track! [:D]

Yeah, but they are having problems soldering the rails together!

[Puckdropper]

Just ask a model railroader!

The trick to soldering rails is to keep the iron tip clean. Use a damP sponge and wipe it off.

I want to know when they'll start using "Snap switches."

[tree68]

Let's see - flex track and sectional (panel) track are here. Snap switches can't be far behind. Getting the switch machine under the "layout" will be a challenge in most spots... I want to see the slip on rail joiners, too.....

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

Just ask a model railroader!

The trick to soldering rails is to keep the iron tip clean. Use a damP sponge and wipe it off.

I want to know when they'll start using "Snap switches."

Actually the railroads do use ready made swithces. They pre fab them and haul them in gondolas, then lift and drop them in place. Here's a photo of one waiting to be installed:



This photo is a few years old, but this year there are a pair of switches end to end sitting in the exact same place waiting to be installed. This is a very cool and busy section of track. It consists of 5 parallel tracks with crossovers connecting all 5 tracks, in both directions. From above it looks like a big X. This year's pair will be placed right in the heart of the plant, so they will want to move quickly when the time comes to install them, so as not to tie up traffic too much.[:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Let's see - flex track and sectional (panel) track are here. Snap switches can't be far behind. Getting the switch machine under the "layout" will be a challenge in most spots... I want to see the slip on rail joiners, too.....

Of course the railroads don't mess with undertable mounting, and perfer to go with more of the Atlas style machine, only scaled down.

Rail joiners don't slide on, they come in two parts and are bolted on, and yes there are even insulated ones. Here's a photo of of an insulated joiner.[;)]

Model railroading is more prototypical than you realize.

[swg]

[mudchicken]

(1) If it holds gage and holds a spike, why not?.......The earlier composite ties, called CEDRITE ties, worked - But failed under tensile stress. You could not drop them, put them under switch assemblies or in main track curves over 3 degrees or curvature.

(2) Big Boy: Joe Trackman would LHAO if you said "rail joiner".....I see a Portec 6-hole insulated joint with a crushed endpost. On either side of it, I see an insulated gage plate. Appears to be an installation at a crossing frog (diamond)....

(3) Puckdropper: Switch panels are becoming more common every year. Here on Pueblo, CO's south side where I am today...switch panels are made for BNSF and UP on the grounds of the CF&I/Rocky Mountain Steel Mill at Meridian/ABC's plant on a jig and plainly visible from I-25. They are loaded into high-side gons in sections due to weight and length restrictions. One turnout (switch) may travel in up to 4 large pieces with all the switch ties (9 Ft. to 17 Ft.) anchored in place....

Roasted Dusty Feathers
(90 Degrees in Pueblo today)

[Big_Boy_4005]

Sorry MC, It's the modeler in me showing, beside, Larry said it first. [swg] You have a very good eye, that is indeed right next to a diamond. There are 8 of them, one on every rail. If I'm not mistaken, these are part of a larger system used to detect the trains, and opreate signals to protect the diamond.

This track is used very little, though the opposing route is reasonably well traveled, and now run by the CN. I believe that makes it ex Soo, ex WC. The little used side is ex NP main to Duluth. The Minnesota Commercial uses it to service a single customer, a lumber yard, about 5 miles north in the town of Hugo where the line now ends. Long ago thid diamond was protected by "smash boards" though those have now been removed.

[rrnut282]

NS builds their own switch panels in Roanoke. I have seen a 16 go in in the last 3 years on various track projects. After everything is lined and leveled (sometimes before) they weld all the joints solid and remove the bars so you can end up with one continuous rail miles long on the outside rails unless signalling needs dictate otherwise. All were on wood ties, though.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Let's see - flex track and sectional (panel) track are here. Snap switches can't be far behind. Getting the switch machine under the "layout" will be a challenge in most spots... I want to see the slip on rail joiners, too.....

Of course the railroads don't mess with undertable mounting, and perfer to go with more of the Atlas style machine, only scaled down.

Rail joiners don't slide on, they come in two parts and are bolted on, and yes there are even insulated ones. Here's a photo of of an insulated joiner.[;)]

Model railroading is more prototypical than you realize.[swg]

Forgot to add the silly grin at the end of my post.[:p][}:)][:o)]

I thought there might be prefabbed switches (even if they aren't 'snap' switches), as for the slip on joiners, well...[;)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

I kind of figured that you really knew Larry, but I'll bet it is news to many other readers here, and it is fun to share the pics.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Id like to see some of these composite ties. CSX is slowly converting to Concrete in Maryland because unlike the wood ties, which need replaced every 7 years, they last 25 years. How long would composite ties last.

[edblysard]

Okay, guys, what we need now is someone to find and photograph a compromise joint, (hint, common in yard throats, and industrial leads).

We have steel, concrete and wood ties in our yard, and are going back to the wood ties for a simple reason.

If you derail onto concrete ties, they break and crumble.

Steel ties snap, and even though they can be welded, they end up breaking again, just beside the weld.
Steel ties also need a different sub road bed, and require extra undercutting and tamping, lots of tamping.

I have also noticed that the Pandrol clips on both steel and concrete ties seem to pop out of the clips a lot, most of the time on the outside rail in curves.

Wood ties, on the other hand, take the pounding of a slow derailment quite well, they absorb the impact with little or no damage, other than scarring the wood.

Ed

[Anonymous]

dont need to cut more trees down for sticks(ties).not enough trees. solution,grind up old tires and melt dem down to ties. da,da!

[edblysard]

Had a discussion with a freind of mind about a releated subject, the amount of lumber used in constructing new houses.
His postiton was that we should recycle plastic products into beams, studs, sideing and such, saving trees...
My point was, you have to burn or use a tremendous amout on enegry, add even more polution to the air to grind up, heat and re-form the products, and lastly, at some point in time, you have to put the end product back into the enviroment.
Houses, cars, clothes and railroad ties at some point, reach the end of usabilty, they end up in a landfill somewhere.
I would think that instead of a land fill full of old tires, no matter what shape they have, round or square, one would prefer a pile of wooden ties, that degrade and breakdown much faster.
Yes, they have creosote in them, but take a look at the content of old tires.

Ed

[TH&B]

There are types of wood that lasts longer as ties, but it also takes alot longer to grow the trees.

[tree68]

As "bad" as creosote might be, a lot of the other wood preservatives that have been proposed are even worse. I'm not sure you can buy Cuprinol any more.... You occasionally see a green power pole, but black is much more common.

As a firefighter, the idea of plastic structural members in a building are a huge red flag, even more than trusses. We know the general characteristics of wood - especially that it will hold its shape until it's burned pretty well through. Plastic is going to melt under heat, not to mention how much hotter the fire will burn. If I pull up in front of your house built with plastic 2 by's, you can pretty well figure it's going to the ground. No way I'm sending my people inside.

[corwinda]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I'm not sure you can buy Cuprinol any more.... You occasionally see a green power pole, but black is much more common.

Interesting fact: Here in Oregon the local utility is having to replace those green poles before regular creosote treated poles a lot older.

[Anonymous]

here in georgia a law prohibits use of creasote in ties utility poles and lumber recently. there are env. safe alt. to creasote(tar). to keep buggies out, keep from rottin,last longer.

[traingeek087]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Norfolk Southern

Why dont they just stick with the old way with wooden ties? But I guess it is better because with wooden ties they break a lot and they cause problems. So I guess its just for safety :)

I believe the Union Pacific was going to use some of them down in Luisiana. They were having problems with the wooden ties because of all of the swamp lands down there. As you know wood and water are not a good mix for a railroad. The plastic ties would fill in so if there was a flood or a wash out, the ties wouldn't warp and such. I believe their environmenally friendly too, as the creosote you know is not.

[rrnut282]

QUOTE: Originally posted by traingeek087


The plastic ties would fill in so if there was a flood or a wash out, the ties wouldn't warp and such.

The crews will love those plastic ties in a flood as they double as a life preserver.[:D]