Why Bergie killed "George Bush's Hostility Toward Amtrak and recent Wrecks"

[Bergie]

Good night everyone.

Bergie

[Bergie]

I'm locking this thread in exactly 15 minutes so we can move on. If you'd like to speak your peace, please do so now.

Erik

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey people, how is it that we have taken a topic about killing a topic and turned into a bigger topic than the topic that was killed in the first place. I think its time to LOCK THIS TOPIC!!!

[banghead][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][:-,][sigh]

[pmsteamman]

Cant we all just get along??

[vsmith]

Politicians have no friends!

I always remember Harry Truman's famous qoute, later repeat by President Clinton...

"If you want a FRIEND in Washington, get a DOG!"

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bergie

When I was a kid, my father once told me to never discuss politics with friends... it would never lead to anything but trouble.

IBergie

What if one of your friends is a politician?!
[}:)]

I thought you had higher standards than that. [:0]

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bergie

When I was a kid, my father once told me to never discuss politics with friends... it would never lead to anything but trouble.

IBergie

What if one of your friends is a politician?!
[}:)]

[Bergie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Oh Boy, here we go again!

Tell me about it. I guess I should have locked this right after I posted the initial response. [:D]

I didn't because I wanted you guys to have a chance to comment.

Erik

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Oh Boy, here we go again!

Everyone chose your sides NOW!

My Party says "NO" to Pinnapple Pizza! Who's with me!

"Read my lips...No new fruit toppings on pizzas"

[vsmith]

Oh Boy, here we go again!

Everyone chose your sides NOW!

My Party says "NO" to Pinnapple Pizza! Who's with me!

[Bergie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stelli

First: the fact that you didn' t kill that thread until after the Clinton stuff appeared says it all. Second: opinions are only "unsubstantiated" if you choose not to substantiate them. Didn't even check, did you? And if the facts are hard to find, it's often because someone who "can't handle the truth" (in the immortal words of Jack Nicholson) chose to bury them or wipe them from the record, as was done here. I don't recall anyone stating their political bent (Republican is capitalized, by the way). I for one am an independent (no need for caps) and spoke from the high, middle ground. I agree, we should not stray too far from the purpose of this site, but I've seen many other threads on this site that wandered much further away from railroading into far less plausible commentary and you didn't do a thing to stop it.

The timing of killing that post had nothing to do with either political party, so please don't imply that I got mad that someone made a crack about Clinton. It simply wasn't the case. It had everything to do with the fact that I didn't think the thread was going to lead to anything but hard feelings between users, and nothing to do with my personal political views.

Next, you're right, republican is capitalized when you're refering to the party. I was refering to an individual ("some republican"), in which case republican works (see the AP style book).

I realize that not every topic in this forum is going to be about railroading and
I'm sure there have been threads that have been more deserving of being deleted in the past, but in this case I was trying to avoid a no win situation.

Erik

[Anonymous]

First: the fact that you didn' t kill that thread until after the Clinton stuff appeared says it all. Second: opinions are only "unsubstantiated" if you choose not to substantiate them. Didn't even check, did you? And if the facts are hard to find, it's often because someone who "can't handle the truth" (in the immortal words of Jack Nicholson) chose to bury them or wipe them from the record, as was done here. I don't recall anyone stating their political bent (Republican is capitalized, by the way). I for one am an independent (no need for caps) and spoke from the high, middle ground. I agree, we should not stray too far from the purpose of this site, but I've seen many other threads on this site that wandered much further away from railroading into far less plausible commentary and you didn't do a thing to stop it.

[Anonymous]

Bergie,
Good call. When I read that topic I couldn't belive how obsurd it was. My first thought was to post a negative response, but I didn't. Then I wished I could have axed it. Ultimately I just decided not to go back, and forget about it.
THANKS

[DSchmitt]

The topic had not gotten out of hand, but it had a real potential to cause bad feeling between members of the Forum. It was also not productive in that the various view points were very polorized. No one involved was going to convince their "opponents".

I would rather discuss railroads and model trains with another member, than fight over politics..

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

It's Bergie's world. He's got an employer that entrusts him with ensuring that the conduct of the forums does not reflect adversely on them. Free speech is as free as he is willing to let it be in this world...and he is pretty dang liberal most of the time with letting folks..including jack@$$es like me get away with alot. There are several sites out there that are not nearly so..locking a thread a day it seems...

Thanks Erik.

I agree we have got it pretty darn good here, and that we shouldn't abuse the privilege. I only suggest in this case, since the topic was allowed to be responded to as much as it had, it seems more in keeping with the philosophy here to LOCK rather than DELETE.

I actually ran up a pretty good phone bill talking to Bergie yesterday, though this particular topic was not part of the conversation, the broader concept was briefly discussed. Both locking and deleting ultimately have the same effect, but the send different messages to the members. The question is which message to send. This is never our decision to make, It belongs to Bergie and his employer.

Sometimes great words of wisdom can be found in the strangest of places. This reminds me of the line from the movie Spiderman, "With great power comes great responsibility". Personally, I don't want to be in Bergie's shoes, his job is more than I could handel.[:)]

[dharmon]

It's Bergie's world. He's got an employer that entrusts him with ensuring that the conduct of the forums does not reflect adversely on them. Free speech is as free as he is willing to let it be in this world...and he is pretty dang liberal most of the time with letting folks..including jack@$$es like me get away with alot. There are several sites out there that are not nearly so..locking a thread a day it seems...

Thanks Erik.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Bergie, I understand that topic was a bit "OFF" for this forum, as a matter of fact , my comments inside the topic were very much along those lines. But, perhaps in the future, rather than taking them all the way down, just LOCK them. Let them stand as a reminder of what is perhaps going too far for subject matter here.

By locking a topic it will still go away, as other topics push it down, but it is not lost from the record. What was really strange is, I had just clicked to look at it when you pulled it, and I was redirected back to the forum list. When I came back in it was GONE. [%-)][banghead][;)][(-D][(-D][(-D][2c]

[jchnhtfd]

May I comment? It seems to me that the great value of this whole forum is that it allows all of us members to exchange views and information and humour (lots of it, thank goodness!) -- and to get our questions answered, or answer other folks' questions -- with really good and interesting stuff. However, there is, unfortunately, a class of internet and forum commentary which does not take the trouble to check and verify, and can dimini***he credibility not only of a particular discussion, but of a whole web site. One of the things which has been so remarkable about this forum is that we have seen very little of that -- but that was, in my humble opinion, the difficulty with that particular thread.

[edblysard]

Ah Hah,
So now the translator shows up, a day late and a dollar short...

Ed

(Christa, thats a complimentary joke)

[Anonymous]

Well If I may,

Erik, you took Kevin out of context. Honestly, that is how problems are started- Someone writes something and it is taken out of context.

Try Reading it a second time, and see if you draw the same conclusion.

If your not sure, always read something a second time [:)]

And if your really angry, wait an hour before you post, two hours, three hours, whatever hours.
[:)]

-Christa [:)] good morning!

Oh i do the same thing as him- when I say You, I mean You as a General You, not exactly you.

[edblysard]

Erik,
I dont think Kevin was stating that you had some standard that you personally wanted to enforce, he did use the phrase "we, the members are regressing", instead of stating that you are forcing us to conform.

I think that his comment was more along the lines of,
"If there is no diversity, no oddball, and someone dosnt throw a monkey wrench into the works every once in a while, things get boring, and we all begin to look and sound the same".

I noted he conceeded the fact that you have a job to do, and that while he may not like it when you excercise your duty, he understand why you have too, and he dosnt plan to complain about it.

I though you had a frenglish dictionary?

Ed

[Bergie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman


So, yes, i am margianally worried, Eventually, and at the rate WE the memebrs are regressing, By 2009, the requiremnts for this site will be Blond hair and Blue eyes to post on this forum.

Kevin, that's ridiculous. You didn't even read the thread so how can you come in and make a statement like that?

You may view it as regressing, but I view it as progressing. Do you know why more things have been deleted in the past two months than were deleted over the previous year? Because my call for all of you to let me know about inappropriate behavior is working. (Granted, most dealt with personal attacks, poor language, etc... but that's why I think it's progressing, because that kind of unwanted banter isn't sticking around the site for long.)

A year ago, a lot of inappropriate topics flew under the radar because I didn't (and still don't) have time to read every single post. That's why I ask all of you to help by pointing out inappropriate posts. That's what's happening, and that's why I've been deleting more threads. It's not because of my master plan to get you all to conform to some set of standards that I've set. That's ridiculous.

Erik

[Anonymous]

Well, I to for one, am going to sound like i'm going against the Grane.

It has been sucessfully done for many years, the discussion of politics between firends. If it had not been, Politics would not have survived much past the roman empire.

Discussion is key. Key is discussion.

Erik, I agree with Ed though, It is somewhat your mandate to make sure somehting is in check, and if someone complained about it, action must be taken and it is not your fault, nor am i criticizing you.

But still I am worried, I have noticed a fair bit of change recently- in the last month and a bit,i have noticed more threads being deleted then i have in the last many months.

I hope that if I post somehting that isn't appropriate, Instead of complaining right to the Executives, they send me an E-mail telling me how they don't like my post, Rememebr, That type of behavior should be encouraged, We try not to call the police if someone leaves their dog barking for five minutes more then it should be. Forum executives should only be contacted in an Emergency, And i would much perfer getting an e-mail from a forum member, then i would form any executive, No offence Erik.

This "Tattle-to-the-president" has me somewhat bewildered, I was always brough up like so: Go get an adult if your life or property is in danger, otherwise attempt to solve the problem yourself.

I'm not sure what the thread was on, I didn't get to see it myself- which is a pitty. Like i said a few paragraphs above, I see no progression in the way things are being handeled on this forum; matter of fact; it's strictly regression.

Remember, In order to make new things socially acceptable someone has to deviate from the crowd.

So, yes, i am margianally worried, Eventually, and at the rate WE the memebrs are regressing, By 2009, the requiremnts for this site will be Blond hair and Blue eyes to post on this forum.

I don''t encourage this type of behavior that was sjut demonstrated (No, not you Erik, the complainer) If you really have a problem Take it out with the person, it helps, and it is slightly more anaynomous.

If i had a problem with any of you, and the way you posted- I'd complain to you first; this is the way the lader is supposed to go, your supposed to climb rung by rung, Not jump from the ground straight to the 33rd rung.


You have to understand where i am comming from when I post this: I live in a society where if you don't like somehting, change the channel or move on, overt your eyes, don't go and complain because it won't be tolerated.

For instane.. ever tried complaining to the CRTC regulatory board for Canadian TV? yeah, you write a compalin to them about what you saw on Tv, and in most cases you'll get an -email back saying somehting along these lines: Your Tv comes with a remote, if you don'ty like it, your entitled to that belief or opinion, simply change the channel, ecept they have a knack for saying that in a 3 page e-mail, and use bigger words then I did.

Thjats simply where i stand, And Erik, i'm not faulting you in any way, shape, or form.

[mudchicken]

amen....and I was ignoring the thread just because of the thread title.

[edblysard]

If you dig back into the archives, you can find quite a few very heated political and religious debates, which had absolutly nothing to do with trains, railfanning, or any aspect of the industry.

Some were about politics, some were about religions, some were even about grammer, punctutation and spelling, (all of which I do badly)
Some, I started, and some I added to.

There was even a debate over weather things mentioned on this forum had to deal with railroading, or face being deleted.

What happened in the end was that as long as personal attacks were left out, and the debate served some useful purpose, it was pretty much left alone, and left up to us to police the contents.

Look at the "Derailed love" thread, about the only thing mentioned towards trains was Mookie's very funny poke at GE.

Point being, it is causing no one harm, is generating a lot of postings, and some good advice for a fellow forum member, so its a pretty safe bet it will be left alone.

The Humor thread is another example, it went away from trains a long, long time ago, but it provides a place for us to tell our really bad jokes.

Then the M&M twins showed up, and pretty much earned the utter contempt of just about every forum member, and I would suspect, the staff at Kalmbach.
I also suspect that not a soul here lost one minute of sleep when Erik deleted the whole thing, and expelled thoses two.

Now, I am a big defender of free speech, and the right of a individule to express themselves, and this is a public forum, in a manner.

But, lest we forget, even though Trains.Com dosnt charge us for the use of this forum, it is their property, and in reality, it is their right to edit it as they see fit.

Bergie has other people to answer to, and other groups who's interest he has to look after, people and groups we dont even think about, like the folks who advertise in the magazines Kalmbach publish, and those who advertise here on the forum.

Consider too, that some of the forum members are very young people.

After all, this is a business, really, and this forum is provided not only to give you, the railfan, a place to come and discuss trains, but it is also intended to get you, the railfan, even more interested in trains, model railroading, railfanning and the products sold for that hobby, there by generating business for those who are footing the bill for this in the first place.

So Bergie is in a very uncomfortable position at times, run the risk of upsetting us, and deleting a thread that is generating a heated discussion, or run the risk of upsetting his bosses, and the people who pay to advertise here and in Kalmbach's publications, by letting that thread run on.

I for one, dont envy him his position one bit.

While we may view this as a public forum, it really is a private club, with us as the members.

We pay our membership dues every time one of us buys one of the magazines, or a product sold in said magazines or on this forum.

I dont remember being asked to pay a dime to use this site, so I figure the cost of designing and hosting this site has to come out of someones budget at Kalmbach, which gives them to right to do with this forum as they choose.

While I may not agree sometimes with Erik's choice to give something the boot, I back him up, and will defend his right to do so, after all, its their property.

Ed

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hello Bergie,

Perhaps I'm going against the grain, but I am surprised that you intervened in this one. Though perhaps a tad "hot" VSmith expressed himself without pretenses or threatening anyone. I was curious about his view and, believe it or not, I found some portions of his answer worth "checking out". No offense taken at all. In his reply Vsmith didn't insult me or anyone else on the forum for that matter.

This forum has been a lot of fun and educational. Politics are part of the railroading scene and we can get slightly off topic sometimes, but censoring this thread "cold turkey?"....[sigh]................ Well, Bergie, you are in command here and I must respect your decision. It wasn't my intention to start a "ruckus".

VSmith, thank you anyway for willing to "let the rubber on your tires meet the road" in your response to my question. [;)][tup]

I hope to continue contributing to the MRR and TRAINS thread. I've benefited a lot; hope others can benefit from me as well. [8)][;)][8D][:)][:p]

10-4 and God Bless!

Antonio,

Glad you at least got to read my posts before they got axed! [;)]

I will try not to express my political view points here, it can get too messy. [:D]

[BR60103]

Bergie, I saw the post with just a couple of replies. I couldn't decide if it was a rant or a parody of a rant. There was not enough indication that it was humorous, so I think it comes under the guidelines of stuff that you can remove.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Bergie.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I wholeheartedly agree your decision to axe the thread, "George Bush's Hostility Toward Amtrak and Recent Wrecks." That thread was not only filled with unsubstantiatable political opinions, it was ridiculous and irresponsible.