.
.....Sounds fair enough to me.
Quentin
ModelcartrainboyH16-44 Ah-ha! 4 pages and we've almost gotten you to the point! So you've gotten that the point of American locomotive headlights is primarily to warn automobile traffic Funny.....I had to chuckle at those words....Yours, not mine. My position is still as it was in the beginning....headlight{s}....both effective in the daylight, and absoutely useful at night....unless engineers enjoy blasting thru the dark and possibly wondering what's next....
trainboyH16-44 Ah-ha! 4 pages and we've almost gotten you to the point! So you've gotten that the point of American locomotive headlights is primarily to warn automobile traffic
Ah-ha! 4 pages and we've almost gotten you to the point!
So you've gotten that the point of American locomotive headlights is primarily to warn automobile traffic
Funny.....I had to chuckle at those words....Yours, not mine.
My position is still as it was in the beginning....headlight{s}....both effective in the daylight, and absoutely useful at night....unless engineers enjoy blasting thru the dark and possibly wondering what's next....
Everyone has a right to stake out a position, and whether it's right or wrong is typically in the eye of the beholder. Mine is that when railways in Britain during the steam era determined that headlights were superfluous, they were 100% correct. It may be that the decision of British railways strikes others as weird, or not customary, or foreign, but I've looked at their logic and I'm not seeing a blunder.
Quentin, I appreciate your doggedness in this matter, because it incented me to look closely at a difference between U.S. and British railway practice to which I've never previously paid attention, and this particular example will be useful for me in my railway job as a striking illustration of the characteristics of and reasons for U.S. railway practices. It will be on one of my powerpoints sooner or later, saying something to the effect of, "U.S. railways were so crooked and sketchy compared to British railways that for years U.S. railway locomotives needed a headlight purely for the engineer to pick his way through the wilderness, while simultaneously British engine drivers blasted their express trains through the darkness without even a headlight, having complete confidence in entrusting the lives of their passengers and crew to the all-clear from the last signal box."
RWM
My position is still as it was in the beginning....headlight{s}....both effective in the daylight, and absolutely useful at night....unless engineers enjoy blasting thru the dark and possibly wondering what's next....
ModelcarI don't disagree with any of that.....but why on earth would one want to plow on in the dark..........? Headlights are available...in our modern age. And we certainly know they are needed to help the driving public know a train is active and slamming towards the crossing. And we know in addition to that, the public can see the flashing ditch lights that assist in that sighting.
I don't disagree with any of that.....but why on earth would one want to plow on in the dark..........? Headlights are available...in our modern age. And we certainly know they are needed to help the driving public know a train is active and slamming towards the crossing. And we know in addition to that, the public can see the flashing ditch lights that assist in that sighting.
So you've gotten that the point of American locomotive headlights is primarily to warn automobile traffic that there's a train, but as has been said a few times in this thread, British right of ways were much better separated from auto traffic and the public in general, and that's why they weren't needed!
In a nutshell, at least/
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..............Interesting story.
wjstix Here's a couple of pics I found on the web
Those are great photos of vision out the windshield....That snow sure does reflect light.
I would not call a steam engine headlight pathetic. I am a former engine driver and I can tell you most definitely, that you can read a newspaper by the light of a locomotive headlight on high beam 800 yards from the locomotive.
Regards, Malcolm.
Knowing next to nothing about British steam, would these be considered class lights?
Video of Henry with lights can be seen here:
Flying Kipper
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
Here's a couple of pics I found on the web. If nothing else, it's a good reminder of how much brighter it is at night in the winter when there's snow on the ground as in the upper picture - part of the reason I like to set my model railroad in winter since I like to operate at night. Anyway, you can judge for yourself but to me I guess the headlight helps but only to a degree.
RWM: I always wondered if the blackout rules for WWII caused the non use of headlights. Any of you Brits or continental Europeans know?
Aircraft landing lights? Blind motorists? I can see the FHWA and FRA not going for that one.
Quentin, there is a fundamental fact of railroad operation that hardly anyone outside of the railroad understands, but it's crucial to understanding that highways and railways are not comparable. Cars proceed on roads based solely on what the driver can see, and the driver adjusts speed to make sure he can brake before he runs into something when it appears in his field of vision. Trains are 100% different out on the main track: they proceed based on what the dispatcher can see. The dispatcher is taking the responsibility for ensuring the track ahead is clear, and the train crew is placing 100% trust in him clearing the track ahead. Out on the main track, outside of yard limits, If the train crew had a display in its cab that told them where it was on the track, and what curves, grades and mileposts were coming up, so it knew when to apply brakes and when to speed up for track curve and grade condition, you could practically paint over the cab windows for all the good they do. (And the PTC systems currently being deployed actually do put that display into the cab.)
The window lets you see the grade-crossings ahead so you can flinch, but rarely are you going to be able to stop the train short of the car that's stalled there.
75 watt bulbs, with LED technology on the horizon.
When cruising, the lights aren't that good, considering the stopping distances of a train. They're fine for slower speed stuff, but on the main? Meh. Add in any type of rain/mist/fog/snow, and the glare is BAD in the cab, furthering reducing their usefulness.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Airplane landing lights and locomotive headlights are some of the brighter lights one will see on a moving vehicle and the comparison between that and total darkness has to be wildly different.
Automotive headlight capability has drastically improved too for the better in the past decade. Super bright with some of the newer gas filled bulbs. Some ID'd by the bluish tint.
I do ride in the locomotive at night on occasion. At our speeds (30-40 max) you're not "overdriving" the lights, so they do a certain amount of good. Unfortunately(?) much of our line is so curvy that what's being lit up is the woods and the sides of the rock cuts...
I don't mind the ditch lights one bit when I'm walking to a remote switch in what would otherwise be total darkness, except for my lantern. Don't really want to meet a bear in the dark....
Walking back can be a pain, though. "6076 - can you kill those ditch lights for a minute?"
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
wjstixHaving lived next to railroads for all my life, I can't really believe that the incredibly bright headlight doesn't help the engineer see ahead. Seems to me in my old house on the tracks that when a train was coming at night, the tracks would be lit up like by a floodlight for a block or more ahead of the engine. As noted, headlights, Mars lights etc. help people see the engine too. Ditch Lights aren't really meant to light up the ditches...older diesels had "ditch lights" that shone under the front and rear steps, largely to help crewmen getting on and off in the dark (although they did help light up the area a bit). Modern ditch lights are there to help make the engine more visible at grade crossings etc. much more than to help the crew see ahead. BTW British engines don't have bells either.
Having lived next to railroads for all my life, I can't really believe that the incredibly bright headlight doesn't help the engineer see ahead. Seems to me in my old house on the tracks that when a train was coming at night, the tracks would be lit up like by a floodlight for a block or more ahead of the engine.
As noted, headlights, Mars lights etc. help people see the engine too. Ditch Lights aren't really meant to light up the ditches...older diesels had "ditch lights" that shone under the front and rear steps, largely to help crewmen getting on and off in the dark (although they did help light up the area a bit). Modern ditch lights are there to help make the engine more visible at grade crossings etc. much more than to help the crew see ahead.
BTW British engines don't have bells either.
Looks bright when you're looking at it. But that light has to bounce off something out there, during which most of the light is scattered or absorbed, and what's left then comes back to the cab. Very little comes back to the cab. Ride a train at night, you'll see! (Or actually, NOT see.).
As to using headlights by day in this country, I have a memory (I still have not located my copy of the 1943 Southern Railway Bible, which gave me my first knowledge of various rules that are standard) that more than sixty years ago, the locomotive headlight was to be on bright at all times when under way, and was to be dimmed only when in a siding.
The 1950 Rock Island Bible (Rule 17) states that the headlight is to be dimmed only when a train is entirely clear of the main and is moving on the siding (and is to be extinguished entirely when the train is stopped on the siding), when approaching or passing head end and rear end of trains and engines standing or moving on adjacent tracks, approaching signals indicating train orders, when standing on main track awaiting arrival of an opposing train, and when moving on sidings and other than main tracks, in clear of main track. The rule also definitely states that when approaching a public crossing at grade, the headlight is to be shining brightly--which indicates that the light is to give notice to the public that a train is coming.
If you are moving, the headlight is to be on bright if you are on the main at all, and it is to be extinguished only when you are stopped.
Of course, some rules were not standard on all railroads.
Johnny
First in america, we feel the need for dual headlights on our vacuum cleaners. So our perspective is biased.
Now to the issue of trains. At any higher speed, the lights are only useful to be seen, not to see. When going 50mph, by the time you would see something, it's too late to do anything about it. Headlights are the most useful in restricted speed operations (yards, switching industries, etc). But it is a PITA when an engineer leaves them on when you're on the ground trying to throw switches or couple cars.
The original canadian ditchlights were used to light up ditches. That's why they were "cross-eyed". Today's ditchlights are actually "axillary" or "crossing" lights. And they are almost never aimed properly, half the time shining up into the trees. They are also usually covered in grime since no one ever seems to take the time to polish them up (I did when I was on the road).
the yard I work with has some lighting, not enough to be bright, but more than enough you don't really need the headlights on the engines to see the switches or other cars.
cx500 Perhaps forgotten by many, even here in the steam era headlights were often turned off during daylight hours. Their constant use started with diesels. I presume the trains were no longer as visible without the plume of exhaust from the steam engine. So even this side of the Atlantic you can see that a major purpose of the headlight was visibility by others. In Britain, with a controlled right of way, this was not an issue
Agree, "a major purpose of the headlight was visibility by others..." , but come nighttime, another major purpose of said headlight would be to see ahead. In fact, most engines for decades now, have twin sealed beam lights or equivalent....{very strong ones}, and now even ditch lights.
And yes, I too remember when steamers did not use their light during daytime operation.
Railway ManBut we will still have headlights, because now the U.S., auto-centric culture thinks that all proper vehicles have to have them
Yes, I'm sure our RR's here in the US will always have headlights.....Why wouldn't they..."security-blanket basis.......", Is that the reason, doubt it.
cx500 Perhaps forgotten by many, even here in the steam era headlights were often turned off during daylight hours. Their constant use started with diesels. I presume the trains were no longer as visible without the plume of exhaust from the steam engine. So even this side of the Atlantic you can see that a major purpose of the headlight was visibility by others. In Britain, with a controlled right of way, this was not an issue. John
Perhaps forgotten by many, even here in the steam era headlights were often turned off during daylight hours. Their constant use started with diesels. I presume the trains were no longer as visible without the plume of exhaust from the steam engine. So even this side of the Atlantic you can see that a major purpose of the headlight was visibility by others. In Britain, with a controlled right of way, this was not an issue.
John
The "always-on headlight" was indeed a grade-crossing safety device in the U.S., but on many railways it started firmly in the steam era. I think it was more a reaction to the rapidly increasing fatality rate as motor vehicle traffic ramped up than the lack of visibility of the diesel-electric. (And as our steam brethern will tell us, the steam engine was supposed to be fired with a clear exhaust.) In 1938, a D&RGW fast freight pulled by a 4-6-6-4 collided with a school bus at a crossing in Midvale, Utah, during daylight, killing 23 children and the bus driver, the single-worst motor vehicle wreck in the U.S. to that time in terms of fatalities. That was a significant impetus for turning the headlight on during daylight hours.
ModelcarAll this info regarding British steam engines not to have headlights is really fascinating. It seems all kinds of money was spent to install fences and crossing protection, etc.....and I just am amazed some of this {might}, have been done to prevent the need of a headlight on an engine....That boggles the mind....!
All this info regarding British steam engines not to have headlights is really fascinating. It seems all kinds of money was spent to install fences and crossing protection, etc.....and I just am amazed some of this {might}, have been done to prevent the need of a headlight on an engine....That boggles the mind....!
You are putting the cart before the horse. In Britain the concept of the railways being a private right of way is much stronger, and also historic public rights of way HAD to be respected. Many of the lines were built through already very well settled areas and the train frequency was high. Just about all road crossings were grade separated. Level crossings were very few in number, each fully gated, interlocked with the signals, and manned full time. These gates were normally left blocking the road, and would be opened, if safe to do so, when a vehicle or shepherd with his flock of sheep needed to cross. Waits could be lengthy on major lines, since delaying an express by giving it a caution signal because the crossing was still open was a cardinal sin.
By the time things like electric lights and generators were invented, British railway practice was already well established. As other posters have pointed out, experience had shown there was little real need for headlights so there was no value to add them.
None of this was done to "get around having to have a headlight." Fencing and crossing separations were done because it made for a more efficient, more reliable, and safer railway. If in the 19th century, you needed to mount a headlight on your locomotives, it's because your railway was cheaply built, inefficient, and unsafe. And considering just how little a 19th century headlight illuminated of the track ahead, it was a desperation move. All that the headlight really enabled the engineer to do was know whether the animal he was about to run over was a deer, a cow, or a mule.
The logic question was never "How do we get rid of the need for a headlight." The logic question was much more fundamental, and was "How can we make our railways efficient, safe, and reliable." The answer was "flat, straight, fenced, and grade-separated, so cows and wagons and people don't wander onto them, get hit, and disrupt our schedules." British railways being built in a compact and industrialized nation could afford to make the necessary investment in grade-separations. U.S. railways were development railways and could not, so had to suffer with crooked, steep, and unfenced railways. Today, grade-crossing collisions and trespasser collisions are an immense problem for U.S. railways. One of the Class 1s recently told me that it had added up all the causes of train delay and their costs and found that grade-crossing collisions were the single biggest cause of train delay. In the future, all important U.S. railways will be 100% grade separated and fenced.
But we will still have headlights, because now the U.S., auto-centric culture thinks that all proper vehicles have to have them. The decision will not be made on an engineering, scientific, or economic basis, it will be made on a security-blanket basis.
The main reason the UK's locomotives didn't need headlights dated back to the Enclosure Acts, which forced landowners to fence in their holdings, so other than few pockets of "common land," agricultural land is fenced off, and we don't have an open range. Likewise, the enabling Parliamentary legislation for railway lines stipulated that lines be fenced off. So trespass by humans or animals is thankfully less common than it might be.
Another factor would have been the the obligation in the Reglation of Railways Acts of 1880 something on drivers to sign a route card to acknowledge which segments of routes on which they were confident to work any kind of train, in any weather, at any time of day or night. So drivers didn't need a big light to tell them where they were at any time. They were expected to know by experience, which would mean the lie of the land, what lights would normally be visible, also sounds and smells! (I'm told one landmark for Great Western steam enginemen working into and out of London Paddington was the Nestles Instant Coffee factory in the outer suburbs)
The situation these days, however, is somewhat different. Back in the 1970s/1980s, the costs of running the Central Wales line were slashed by relaxing the signalling requirements for road crossings. British Rail accomplished this by turing the route into a "Light Railway" as defined in legislation back at the turn of the last century. Crossing keepers would be dispnsed with, speed restrictions (whose severity depended on ease of sighting) were imposed at what would now become "open crossings," and trains would be fitted with Headlights to enable road vehicle drivers to spot trains easier.
The working of that same route was later amended by the use of NSKT (non-signaller key token) controlled from just the one signalbox controlling movements along 80 or so miles of route. At the same time, all conventional BR signals (other than those controlling access to and from the main lines at each end) were removed, and were replaced by fixed signals in the shape of simple signs, and which were made of a very reflective material such that drivers could read them a long way off.
The effectiveness of that reflective material for speed limit signs has seen widespread use of headlights / marker lights to help drivers read same. So although our trains and locomtives don't have Headlights as powerful as those used in the US, our modern trains and locomotives are kitted out with lighting good enough to read our fixed lineside signs.
Perhaps a UK driver might put things over better than I can.
Hwyl,
Martin
Kevin C. Smith I, too, recall reading that British railways, being almost free of highway grade crossings and well fenced, did not develop a need for headlights as American and other railroads did. I also seem to recall that the placement of the lights indicated something about the type of train (as mentioned above, something akin to marker lights) but I can't find anything about it offhand right now. Maybe someone with A) a better organiazed library (who am I kidding? any organized library...), B) a better memory (again, who am I kidding? any memory) or C) way too much time on their hands (for once, I'm in the clear) can find/post it?
I, too, recall reading that British railways, being almost free of highway grade crossings and well fenced, did not develop a need for headlights as American and other railroads did. I also seem to recall that the placement of the lights indicated something about the type of train (as mentioned above, something akin to marker lights) but I can't find anything about it offhand right now. Maybe someone with A) a better organiazed library (who am I kidding? any organized library...), B) a better memory (again, who am I kidding? any memory) or C) way too much time on their hands (for once, I'm in the clear) can find/post it?
At one point in time the codes were as here:
http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/basic16.htm
The earliest diesels used the same codes but with white disks, then they went to an illuminated display of the headcode, including the train class, then to pure marker lights.
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