Anybody have any experience with them,good or bad? Are they appropritte for mail line use? I'm not a track guy,but I am not enamored with them...to me it seems like they don't have enough surface area to hold the rail and the ballast where it needs to be, and signal activation would seem to be an issue. any thoughts?
I have experience with them.
Steel ties have been used extensively on light-loading gauge railways in the Middle East and Africa. BCR used them extensively on heavy-loading gauge applications. The only other railway I know of that has made extensive main track use in the U.S. is Austin & Northwestern (Cap Metro). They are used to some extent in industrial applications, particularly where corrosive environments are an issue. To some extent people have tried them in-face with wood ties in heavy-curve applications where gauge-holding is an issue.
I don't know anyone who has tried them in main track applications, regardless of loading gauge, that has had a happy experience. It's very difficult to hold surface and line with steel ties. They do not have enough surface area to interact with the ballast and as a result the track skates around on top of the ballast. Curves shift to the outside. (I think this is what you mean by "hold the ballast" as it's not the tie's job to hold the ballast; it's the other way around.)
Steel ties have had shoulder-cracking issues in heavy loading-gauge applications, which is fatal to the tie. And, as you mention, there is the difficulty with maintaining insulation integrity between the rail and the tie to avoid signal system shunts, which is a significant problem with grade-crossing signals as well as wayside signals.
RWM
One other major issue with steel ties is the significant cost differential between steel ties and good old wood. Steel ties also don't fare as well as wood in a derailment scenario. Not as bad as concrete, but not as good as wood.
LC
A couple of places where steel ties do work well are both industrial track scenarios where the track is completely encased in concrete, and no track circuit signals are involved, such as 1.) Grade crossing, of poured-in-place concrete; and, 2.) track inside a building.
If signals are present at the grade crossings, they are (almost ?) always (switch) "key-operated" / controlled, so no "island" or other track circuits are involved that the steel ties could shunt.
The tracks in buildings is usually down in a "track well" that is depressed below the main floor level (typically by the same distance as the standard boxcar floor height above the rail of 44" = 3'-8", so that the boxcar floor is pretty much flush with the main floor level, sometime 4" more if insulated boxcars are to be used). However, occasionally the track is right in the main floor.
In both instances the steel ties enable a pretty good reduction in the thickness of the concrete slab for the track. If memory serves, the base slab / pour is usually 12" thick, and the top/ 2nd slab/ pour - if done with wood ties - would range from 12" (for 100 lb. rail & 6" x 8" No. 3 size ties) to around 15" (for 130 lb. rail & 7" x 9" No. 5 size ties). These are comparatively huge dimensions for concrete slab thicknesses, and if steel ties are used - typcially only around 2" thick/ high - the thickness of the top/ 2nd slab/ pour can be reduced accordingly, by 4" to 5", which can be a significant savings if the involved floor area or track length is large enough.
The track circuit problem may not be relevant to a trolley system, where the opposite rails are often joined together anyway (such as by gage rods). Also, I understand that the trolley signal circuits are or can be either tied into the overhead wires instead, or else governed by the resistance (= distance) from the signal to the car, so steel ties may also have an application there.
Haven't ever seen any steel ties in main line railroad service, but I can believe what RWM says above regarding that.
- Paul North.
Interesting you should mention that BCR uses these steel ties in mainline heavy loading. FYI, CN has pulled many of these steel ties between N Vancouver and Whistler BC (and perhaps further) and replaced them with wooden ties. This has been done within the last 12 months. I wondered about this (travelling this way regularly) but having seen other threads about steel tie's ability to withstand heavy loads without shifting etc, I can see why they have been replaced by wooden ties in mainline service especially since CN tends to load heavy and long (up to the 80 car limit) even with the federal Transport Minister's order to limit train length.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
lenzfamilyRWM Interesting you should mention that BCR uses these steel ties in mainline heavy loading. FYI, CN has pulled many of these steel ties between N Vancouver and Whistler BC (and perhaps further) and replaced them with wooden ties.
Interesting you should mention that BCR uses these steel ties in mainline heavy loading. FYI, CN has pulled many of these steel ties between N Vancouver and Whistler BC (and perhaps further) and replaced them with wooden ties.
On the Squamish Sub CN has been replacing the steel ties with concrete ones. The wood ties were done by BC Rail before the CN takeover, so I'm told.
The DM&IR and several other USS roads did use steel ties on a limited basis in the US. As far as signaling, shouldered insulators may work. I have seen steel ties in some industrial trackage....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Steel ties are used in steel mills where wood ties would be subject to the heat of spilled loads. I have also seen steel ties used in strategically important turnouts in the BNSF yard in Galesburg IL perhaps in the theory, or the hope, that they would allow the turnout to be used longer without being taken out of service as often as a wood tie turnout would be. Whether it works out that way or not I do not know.
I do recall reading that some of the initial enthusiasm for steel ties came from the cost accounting department. I am a bit fuzzy on the issue, and my semester of basic accounting in college is far in my past, but the scrap or resale value of a steel tie helped out on balance sheet issues when valuing the property or running a depreciation schedule or some such other accounting magic that has helped make our economy the wonderful engine of growth and happiness that it is today.
Dave Nelson
Tyler
Interesting you should say this. You're right. I've certainly seen the concrete ties on tight curves etc close to the highway, but am also quite sure I've also seen piles of wooden ties for installation in tangent locations in the last year as well. Perhaps I'm imagining things but I remember being surprised at the time about the mixture of ties as I recall RWM saying they don't 'mix well' if I can put it that way.
I rode a cog rail in Zurich SW.
I had every type of tie you could conceive.
I also seen concrete and steel tie along the C.S.S. & S.B.
But a couple of days ago. I watched them replace wood with wood.
Here in PA all I've seen are the old wooden ties. Supposedly steel mills use the metal ones But I haven't been able to get a good enough look. From what I've they never really got past the experimental stages with class 1 roads though.
In 1995 I rode a fantrip on part of the ex SP Tillamook branch,from just short of Tillamook to the summit of the grade.At the summit I noticd that steel ties were used at that location.I don't know how much of the line used steel ties,or if they are still in use there.
Have had to surface track where steel ties were used to replace wood ties. Nasty ties to have to tamp up. More ballast required to be "squeezed" under them as they are in an inverted U and have to be filled with material. Wood ties can be surfaced using 2-3 insertions of the tamping blades as steel ties need 10-12 to fill under them. Lots of time to hold up the surface. Steel ties dont line as well as wood due to the end of the tie is bent down and tends to dig into the ballast and little surface area at the end of the tie to hold the rail in alignment. Real pain in the donkey to work surface with em.
Thanks for all the replies guys! Does the tamper need any special attachments to tamp them or can they just be tamped like you can with wood ties?
Same tamping tool .... Just hope the tool is not worn too bad and hope the oscillating vibrator (electric or hydraulic) is working well, otherwise you're going nowhere fast.
CP used steel ties through the tunnel at Tunnel City, WI in order to gain an extra three or so inches of vertical clearance. They've been there about five years, the application is only about 1400' long.
Last summer NS used steel ties to rebuild the small 3 track yard they operate next to the Raleigh NC Amtrak station.
Going to start a job monday 11-03-08 where we will be rehabing some main line track in Wyoming. As we were unloading the tamper I noticed bundles of steel switch ties we are going to install when we rehab the switches.
I operate a PJ 6700 brand switch tamper (S model) and yes the ballast tools and vibrators have to be in top condition to work steel ties. Hopefully the ballast we will use will be of good quality, (2-3 inch crushed stone) and not round crusher run. It takes a while to fill the void under the tie as you have to pack the s--- out em to do it. Eats ballast right up. Plus the whole tie gets tamped in the switch, not just the bearing portion uner the rail.
Will be putting in wood ties on the main for the rehab. Then the PJ can rock and roll. 136 LB jointed rail and will stick wood under the joints.
Over here in Germany, there is extensive use of steel ties on branch lines and in yards. Almost all main lines use concrete ties, except the high-speed corridors, which are now using solid-bed concrete technology.
A couple of years ago, during a rehab in Echo canyon I also noticed some steel ties. Perhaps they were going under switches. But a current job here is Brigham City has wood ties stacked for the switches.
dd
Update: Cap Metro is replacing many of those ties as of March 2023. There's a five-mile slow order between Bertram (TX) and Summit.
Steve Hanson past volunteer, Austin & Texas Central Railroad
CSX used steel ties in their North Baltimore, Ohio intermodal yard.
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