What do you think of this? - bad crossings and good drivers

[Anonymous]

> > dear angels on track,
> > >
> > > I agree with your effort's to get railroad crossing's to be
> > better
> > > lighted with crossing light's, gates, etc. But I must say that
> > your
> > > slogan of " Bad crossing's kill good driver's" is not even true.
> > First
> > > off, the railroad has been here for over 150 years. Back in the
> > old day's
> > > train's crossed crossing's that only had a crossing sign at over
> > 90 MPH.
> > > People did not get killed. They looked, listened, and then crossed
> > the
> > > track. A driver that does not take the time to look before they
> > cross is
> > > stupid. The railroad has al way's had the right of way, and will
> > al
> > > way's. There is nothing that can be done about that. If you want
> > to make
> > > a difference, put the responsibility where it belong's. On the
> > stupid
> > > driver that think's that he or she does not have to slow down,
> > look, or
> > > listen. The Federal law requires engineers to blow there horn. Now
> > The
> > > engineer also suffers with a death at a crossing. many people have
> > had to
> > > get serious care because at night they dream of the face of the
> > child
> > > staring at them just before impact and there is nothing that they
> > can do.
> > > Please. They are just doing there job. They are just as innocent
> > as the
> > > person that crossed in front of the train and got hit. This nation
> > has
> > > gone way to far in not putting the responsibility on the person
> > who is
> > > actually responsible. So again I agree with you trying to get
> > more
> > > protection, but your slogan is false. If they were good drivers
> > they
> > > would not have pulled out in front of that train.
> > >
> > > B.P.
>
> > Mr. Porter. Thank you for contacting our Foundation, and while
> > you state you take exception to our slogan "Bad Crossings Kill
> > Good Drivers", I must tell you that the opinions of others will
> > never
> > alter the mission or focus of our Foundation.
> >
> > This slogan was not just pulled out of a hat. It is based on fact.
> > Only approximately 20% of our nation's railroad crossings are
> > protected with gates. Most, if not all, railroad crossings do not
> > meet FHWA/AASHTO sight line requirements for safe passage
> > across tracks. Even crossings with protection (gates and lights)
> > malfunction. Crossings with passive markings (crossbucks, stop
> > signs, Buckeye crossbucks) do not warn of an approaching train.
> > All of these are BAD CROSSINGS and kill hundreds of people
> > each year. To believe that all railroad crossing accidents are
> > caused by irresponsible motorists, is a unfounded stereotype that
> > has been accepted by unknowing individuals.
> >
> > And contrary to your statement ("back in the old days train's
> > crossed
> > crossings that only had a crossing sign at over 90 mph.
> > People did not get killed").... thousands were killed each year
> > and thousands were injured during the late 1800's and early/mid
> > 1900's. Crossing accidents have only decreased due to railroad
> > mergers,
> > crossing consolidations and closures, and installation of
> > protection
> > devices (gates). The safest year in railroad history (1999), 1369
> > people were injured and 402 people lost their lives. I find that
> > solemn
> > statistic to brag about, especially to those, like myself, who have
> > lost
> > a loved one to a dangerous crossing.
> >
> > To say all you have to do is look, listen and cross, is a dangerous
> > assumption and a deadly one at best. If you can't see down the
> > tracks
> > because sight obstructions such as trees, buildings, brush, parked
> > railroad
> > equipment, how can a motorist tell if a train is coming? If the FRA
> > whistle
> > ban is adopted
> > this coming December trains will not sound their horns at whistle
> > posts
> > posted 1/4 mile down the track, what will you listen for? Do you
> > honestly think that the railroad companies and their employees
> > always
> > follow required safety procedures such as train speeds, flagging
> > crossings
> > that have malfunctioned, etc., and the railroad companies have no
> > responsibility
> > for public safety?
> >
> > The fact is there is alot that can be done about dangerous railroad
> > crossings.
> > First, there is no excuse why all railroad crossings are not
> > protected with
> > properly functioning gates. Second, there is nothing precluding
> > the
> > railroads
> > from funding installation of protection (gates), they just choose
> > not to.
> > Third,
> > instead of always blaming the motorists for virtually all railroad
> > crossing
> > accidents,
> > current educational programs and organizations (funded by railroads)
> > should
> > present an unbiased message, based on facts, to address the true
> > causes
> > for railroad crossing accidents. These messages are used to focus
> > on the
> > victim and not the railroads conscious disregard for public safety.
> > Fourth,
> > all speed tapes and event recorders should be turned over to an
> > independent
> > agency after an accident, not the railroads involved. Also taking
> > into
> > account
> > most highway patrol, sheriff departments, emergency personnel, and
> > first
> > aid responders have been trained by our nation's railroads in
> > "railroad grade
> >
> > crossing accident investigation" to determine the cause. Now who do
> > you
> > think they will find at fault?
> >
> > You might be interested in knowing that we have the continued
> > support and
> > well wishes from current and past railroad employees. We also have
> > the support from experts within the railroad industry. To tell me
> > that you
> > support our Foundation's goals to install gates at all crossings,
> > but then
> > take exception with our slogan, can only be taken as lack of
> > knowledge
> > on your part as to what needs to change. Nowhere in our slogan do
> > we
> > mention railroad employees, we address the crossings. And, bad
> > crossings
> > also kill railroad employees. You might want to visit the
> > http://www.csx-sucks.com
> > website. Go to safety. Read the posts from those employees. They
> > support
> > what we are saying, and confirm the lack of concern that exists
> > today for
> > dangerous crossings. And, we also have the RRESQ link posted on
> > our
> > website (Crossing To Safety section). If we were not interested in
> > the
> > safety of all, public and railroad employees, why would we have a
> > link on
> > our website?
> >
> > I will not argue with you. I will repeat that you are sadly
> > mistaken
> > and too readily willing to accept what has been accepted for far too
> > long
> > as to what causes these accidents. Only those people with a
> > sincere
> > wi***o stop these needless tragedies, will open up their minds and
> > look at the other side of the story............that which has not
> > been
> > told in the past. May God send peace and understanding to your
> > heart to understand our Foundation.
> >
> > Vicky L. Moore, Trustee
> > The Angels on Track Foundation
> > Crossing To Safety
> > "BAD CROSSINGS KILL GOOD DRIVERS" (R)
> >
> >
> >
> > Well Vicky L. Moore,
>
> Thank you for at least writing back. I have to say that I am
> ignorant of some thing's and you have given me some interesting info. I
> thank you for that information, but I believe that you also are ignorant
> of some thing's, but you said "I will not argue with you. I will repeat
> that you are sadly mistaken". That lead's me to believe that you are not
> as you said ready to "open up their minds and look at the other side of
> the story......" So I will not waist your time or mine. Good luck in your
> work and I wish you well.
> Have a super day
>
> B.P.

I say, if a crossing is dangerous, drivers should be more careful!

[espeefoamer]

Remember the saying;"as soon as they make somethiing idiotproof,along comes a new class of idiots."

[Anonymous]

Well, it is just like our nation's roads and the drivers that are on them.

We all need to slow down abit and excercise alittle common sense ==aka good judgement, rather than always in a hurry to go nowhere. Today's society has it made and we have many luxuries and other things that distract us from the basic fundamentals of good driving habits. That being said, I don't doubt there are some RR crossings that need improvement. But since trains cannot stop on a dime and the improvements that some of the people want made to the RR crossings aren't going to happen overnight, how about using some good old fashion common sense and extend the odds of a longer life. Bad crossing might be construed to be a contributer to the deaths of a few people but a far greater number of people will continue to be killed by their own stupid judgement and behavioral patterns. Remember, when we get behind the wheel of our vehicles, for the most part, we set our own destiny.

I think that a start to decreasing the senseless deaths at RR crossings would be the installation of stop signs on both sides of the track, facing both ways. Yeah I know. That would be a nice billboard for taggers and theives and no one would stop at them anyway.........well maybe so, but it would be a start. Far too many crossing have only the traditional crossbuck.

[tree68]

No question that there are some crossings out there that need some attention. There are many road intersections that need attention. That doesn't change the fact that the driver is ultimately responsible for his (or her) own actions.

Instead of a blanket condemnation of the railroads, maybe they should work up a list of dangerous crossings (maybe they already have - haven't checked their website). Just as dangerous road intersections get improved, so do bad crossings. Everybody wins.

I especially like this one:

QUOTE: Third, instead of always blaming the motorists for virtually all railroad crossing accidents, current educational programs and organizations (funded by railroads) should present an unbiased message, based on facts, to address the true causes for railroad crossing accidents. These messages are used to focus on the victim and not the railroads conscious disregard for public safety.

Hmmm. I'm driving down the road and some bozo pulls out in front of me. MY conscious disregard for public safety?

Faced with an effort like this, the RR's would do well to suggest the ultimate solution to grade crossing accidents. Close all the grade crossings. They own the property after all, and are perfectly justified in protecting their interests. If the local municipality needs to get across the tracks there, let them build a bridge or tunnel.

Once again, the lunatic fringe, in the person of Ms Vicky Moore, has made itself heard.

[Anonymous]

Bad crossings do not kill GOOD drivers. Good drivers look both ways before they cross, and if view of the tracks is obstructed a GOOD driver will slow down or stop to be able to see reguardless of weather or not there is a sign that advises you to do so.
that being said,
It's the other category of drivers that are the problem. We do need more driver education about railroads, but some people are never going to learn and theres not a whole lot that can be done about that. (something about natural selection) [xx(]
It's too bad these people can also cause grief and even death to the train crews, and the passengers in the cars they drive (the innocent) [:(]

[TH&B]

How can a "good driver" get killed at a crossing?

[Anonymous]

The laws of physics hold true for so called good drivers and so called bad drivers. Both can get spammed in their cans by a speeding locomotive. You treat railroad tracks about the same as you would treat grizzly bear tracks... somewhere out there there is a big, speedy, out of control animal that can chew you up and spit you out.

People will always do stupid things, expecting "the other guy" to stop or change course. They are the idiots that sail in front of large cargo ships... try to fly formation in their Cessnas with jetliners...cut semis off on the highway...or walk up on a grizzly bear.

Erik

[vsmith]

i hope you-know-who isnt back.....[V]

[Mookie]

Ah yes - another argument for taking responsibility for your own actions. Everyone and everything get out of my way, so I don't get hurt doing just exactly as I please and ignoring the facts and laws, while I make my way through what may turn out to be a very short life!

I will sign this Ook, since I don't want to be an M or M on this posting!

PS - what a bad use for angels, unless they are for the innocents that are in the car as passengers!

[Anonymous]

Nahhh I doubt It's M or M seeing as their statements were embezilled and Dripping with Sarcasim

I agree whoever said that up there, A good driver gets killed by nothing.

If your name is Mr. Magoo and your driving along the Traintracks-
WELL, then...

[jeaton]

I'll just second everyone else's response to that drivel because mine is unprintable.

[Anonymous]

well looks like a case of preaching to the choir in this forum

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

I'll just second everyone else's response to that drivel because mine is unprintable.

oooooo

I'd love to know your opinion!

E-mail me

[Mookie]

Kevin! You left Canada for Mars? Don't think that was a very wise move on your part!

Mookie

[vsmith]

at least its warmer than Canada

[vsmith]

Do you think this "Vicky Moore" is Misery in drag?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

i hope you-know-who isnt back.....[V]

Well, you never know. When the first of the M&M's came on here, there was a lot of mention of that Angels on Track website. Let's just hope that this thread doesn't turn into another one like that one that's nothing but 25 pages of arguing.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Sask_Tinplater

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

i hope you-know-who isnt back.....[V]

Well, you never know. When the first of the M&M's came on here, there was a lot of mention of that Angels on Track website. Let's just hope that this thread doesn't turn into another one like that one that's nothing but 25 pages of arguing.

Easy cure on that one.... Don't take the bait. Ignore 'em long enough and they just go away...

[vsmith]

I like p42dcboy's attempt to aurgue his point, but The reply from this Vicky Moore is as bad headed logicly as anything from Misery! I think p42dcboy just got a taste of that bitter little pill we all had to spit out.

[wabash1]

Mookie ( you gonna love this ) and others

All us engineers must do is weed out the so called good drivers and then only the idiots will live. ( at least they will stop look listen and live) and then this angels on railroad backends will be sad as there wont be anything to complain about. now lets all sing

I hear the train a comming..... its comming around the bend...now i aint seen the sunshing since i dont know when ..... Im buried 6ft under ....and life keeps going on...if i wouldnt have been so stupid .... while trying to light my bong....

[Mookie]

Wabash - you are soundin' a little radical to me! Course, if the Mookie is a co-engineer and the driver is on the 2nd motor, well......

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Do you think this "Vicky Moore" is Misery in drag?

Naw! She talks too good!

[mudchicken]

And one would expect anything different from an organization funded and driven from a trial lawyer's point of view?

(1) Their client(s) could not possibly be at fault? (be truly stupid?)
(2) The problem is always the guy with the perceived deep pockets?

(wish I had the red ink concession every time I have to do a peer review on some dumb highway engineer's view on how to place or rehab a road crossing.... and we don't even get to check 50% of the work, especially where the paving people doing routine overlays wind up paving the railroad into a giant hole after 5-6 layers of asphalt ...but then again, they aren't at fault in those moron's narrow minded little world)

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[zardoz]

There is a crossing south of Burlington, WI (Hoosier Creek rd), that is (or was, last time I was there) protected only by crossbucks and stop signs; in addition, the road crosses the tracks at about a thirty degree angle and on a slight rise.

While there I like to take pictures. When all is quiet I sometimes sit in my vehicle (with lots of antennas and lights on top) parked somewhat near the tracks on the side of the road. But sometimes I park in the little park down the road and hike to the tracks.

My point is that when my car is NOT nearby, MOST drivers barely slow down for this semi-blind crossing, much less actually stop (it has stop signs below the crossbucks); but when I am parked near the tracks, almost ALL drivers come to a complete stop and look both ways (they must think I'm some sort of authority figure).

If my observations are somewhat typical, then these "innocent" lives that are being lost may not be so "innocent" as they first appear.

The problem at crossings is not visibility, it's mentality.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

There is a crossing south of Burlington, WI (Hoosier Creek rd), that is (or was, last time I was there) protected only by crossbucks and stop signs; in addition, the road crosses the tracks at about a thirty degree angle and on a slight rise.

While there I like to take pictures. When all is quiet I sometimes sit in my vehicle (with lots of antennas and lights on top) parked somewhat near the tracks on the side of the road. But sometimes I park in the little park down the road and hike to the tracks.

My point is that when my car is NOT nearby, MOST drivers barely slow down for this semi-blind crossing, much less actually stop (it has stop signs below the crossbucks); but when I am parked near the tracks, almost ALL drivers come to a complete stop and look both ways (they must think I'm some sort of authority figure).

If my observations are somewhat typical, then these "innocent" lives that are being lost may not be so "innocent" as they first appear.

The problem at crossings is not visibility, it's mentality.

With a handle like Zardoz - I always thought of you as some kind of an authority figure! [bow]

[katwoman99]

The Los Angeles light-rail Blue Line is considered one of the most "accident-prone" in the country, even though their tracks are protected by gates, flashing lights, the engineers whistles and bells that make a clang-clang-clang noise. Most of the time when there is an accident, it's because someone has driven around the gates to save a few seconds. A can't think of anywhere I need to go in that big a hurry.

[northwesterner]

That's part of the problem, I'm not in a big hurry to get anywhere, so I slow down at crossings with gates and lights, and STOP at unguarded crossings. But, the other people out there (especially big SUV drivers) are so much into this "I'm important, I'm in a hurry, get out of my way" frame of mind, they cause problems for everyone. (Crawling @10 MPH in an expressway traffic jam, when an IIP (I'm Important Person) goes flying by on the shoulder @60 MPH.

When I first joined these forums, I too SLOGGED through the M&M threads, irritating, mind-numbing, and just plain stupid in many instances. I agree with Ookie, Vsmith, Tree68, and others, let it go.[V]

[vsmith]

Hey Katwoman,

Get this, in South Pasadena, Ca. their is an active campaign to have the Gold Line light-rail trains prohibited from using their horns at any crossings! Its TOO NOISY for the weinies that live there. They also want the train to SLOW DOWN to 20 mph through the lenth of the entire town. It already takes 30 minutes to 15 miles to downtown. I have been at the main street crossing when the trains cross and the horns are no louder than a automobile horn. You just want to slap some people sometimes!

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

Remember the saying;"as soon as they make somethiing idiotproof,along comes a new class of idiots."

I always thought it was

"design a system that even an idiot can use, and only an idiot will use it"

[Anonymous]

Well this is interasting but all crossing need gates I don't care if it has 1 train a day THEY ALL NEED THEM so beancounter excutives SPEND MONEY ON THIS

DOGGY