jeffhergertA few years ago, an engineer (I believe on NS) was disciplined for going too slow when moving at restricted speed. An arbitraitor upheld the discipline.
And if he hit something at that speed, he'd have been dinged, too. Darned if you do...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zugmann mvlandsw Dispatchers or trainmasters have been known to complain about someone following the rule too literally. "Malicious compliance"
mvlandsw Dispatchers or trainmasters have been known to complain about someone following the rule too literally.
"Malicious compliance"
A few years ago, an engineer (I believe on NS) was disciplined for going too slow when moving at restricted speed. An arbitraitor upheld the discipline.
Jeff
mvlandswDispatchers or trainmasters have been known to complain about someone following the rule too literally.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The 1/2 the range of vision requirement is to cover the situation of two trains approaching each other in opposite directions. If they both stop in 1/2 their range of vision they will not hit.
In some situations being able to stop a big train in 1/2 the range of vision requires moving very, very, very slowly. Dispatchers or trainmasters have been known to complain about someone following the rule too literally.
Mark Vinski
GBSD70ACe yeah except part of restricted speed is operating your train in such a manner that you can stop and within half the range of vision, short of TERMS D. it does not mention anything about 3 car lengths. i would hope no railroader especially a engineer would use the excuse that they couldn't see the banner for more than 150 feet. it's supposed to simulate a real world situation and failure is a very big deal. tree68 Without being able to read the FRA's mind, I have to guess, but... I would suppose the rule is to prevent a banner from being placed where it would be impossible for the engineer to respond in time - think of that stop sign that's hidden behind trees until you're right at the intersection.
yeah except part of restricted speed is operating your train in such a manner that you can stop and within half the range of vision, short of TERMS D. it does not mention anything about 3 car lengths. i would hope no railroader especially a engineer would use the excuse that they couldn't see the banner for more than 150 feet. it's supposed to simulate a real world situation and failure is a very big deal.
tree68 Without being able to read the FRA's mind, I have to guess, but... I would suppose the rule is to prevent a banner from being placed where it would be impossible for the engineer to respond in time - think of that stop sign that's hidden behind trees until you're right at the intersection.
Without being able to read the FRA's mind, I have to guess, but...
I would suppose the rule is to prevent a banner from being placed where it would be impossible for the engineer to respond in time - think of that stop sign that's hidden behind trees until you're right at the intersection.
The rule requires operating at a speed that permits stopping within 1/2 the range of vision, but you don't have to actually stop at the 1/2 way point.
Some years ago there was a manager that failed an engineer because he didn't stop at the 1/2 way point from when the red flag first became visible (coming around a curve) and the actual location of the flag. The failure was thrown out and a clarification was issued on how to apply the rule.
I would guess the 3 car rule isn't in an operating rule book, but rather a manager's manual on how to conduct effeciency tests.
GBSD70ACeyeah except part of restricted speed is operating your train in such a manner that you can stop and within half the range of vision, short of TERMS D. it does not mention anything about 3 car lengths. i would hope no railroader especially a engineer would use the excuse that they couldn't see the banner for more than 150 feet. it's supposed to simulate a real world situation and failure is a very big deal.
No question.
I think the idea is to prevent a "weed weasel" from cheating.
Like the example I gave of someone stepping out with a red flag. The implication is that they can't do that when the train is 50' away.
Paul of Covington Lithonia Operator mackb4 A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point. What does this mean? The banner must be big/bright enough to be seen three car-lengths ahead of the engineer? So in long-hood-forward mode, that's two lengths ahead of the loco. One is supposed to stop a 15-mph train in two car lengths??!! What am I missing? Good luck, L.O. I was wondering about that, too. It seems absurdly close. And by the way, he must be able to stop the train in half the distance so he's got to stop in one car length in your example running long hood forwaed.
Lithonia Operator mackb4 A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point. What does this mean? The banner must be big/bright enough to be seen three car-lengths ahead of the engineer? So in long-hood-forward mode, that's two lengths ahead of the loco. One is supposed to stop a 15-mph train in two car lengths??!! What am I missing?
mackb4 A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point.
What does this mean? The banner must be big/bright enough to be seen three car-lengths ahead of the engineer? So in long-hood-forward mode, that's two lengths ahead of the loco.
One is supposed to stop a 15-mph train in two car lengths??!!
What am I missing?
Good luck, L.O. I was wondering about that, too. It seems absurdly close. And by the way, he must be able to stop the train in half the distance so he's got to stop in one car length in your example running long hood forwaed.
Exactly. One car length.
Say this is train of 100 empty hoppers with two six-axle units. Even at 5 mph, I wouldn't have thought you could safely stop that train in one car length.
I mentioned involving a curve when I conduct a test - as most of our testers do - that's simply so the engineer can't see the banner at the same time as they see the fusee.
The idea is to see if the engineer responds appropriately, not to place him in a situation where he can't.
In our case, where the conductor is back on the train, part of the procedure involves the engineer communicating the sighting of the fusee to the conductor, including the fact that he/she is reducing to restricted speed. This communication will usually also be heard by the person conducting the test, indicating to them that the engineer has recognized the situation and is reacting appropriately.
In addition, in territory where restricted speed is the rule (ie, NORAC Rule 98), a tester could step out waving a red flag. The FRA's guidance prevents them from doing so in such a manner that the engineer can't stop the train appropriately.
Lithonia OperatorSo, the three car-lengths: From what to what? When? Why? ???
Three car lengths from the vantage point of the engineer. So don't put the banner around the curve behind a building such that the engineer can't see it until they are 50 feet away.
I am a DSLE on our RR and I have not heard that 3 car rule before. It might be a RR specific practice, though I will ask about it the next time I recertify my DSLE credentials. If operating at restricted speed properly, an engineer should in fact be able to stop short of ANY obstruction, regardless of how close they have to get to see it. That said, we are also not supposed to be setting traps with the intent of trying to cause failures. When I do a test, I will take into consideration if the engineer is running long or short hood forward, and make sure the fusee is on the engineer's side, though the banner will always be on a curve with limited sight distance.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Okay, gang. I'm going to give this one more shot. I may be dense (a distinct possibility), but I have no clue what the three car-lengths refers to.
The engineer sees the fusee. He goes to restricted speed as quickly as is prudent. He proceeds at a speed whereby he can stop in half the distance to a visible obstruction. Sooner or later, he sees the banner. He stops, hopefully at a point which satisfies the trainmaster.
So, the three car-lengths: From what to what? When? Why? ???
Help the challenged. You'll feel better about yourself. You'll be rewarded in the afterlife.
Lithonia Operator"A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point." I'm still confused about the 3 car-length thing.
I'm still confused about the 3 car-length thing.
Of course - are we talking 36 foot cars, 40 foot cars, 50 foot cars, 60 foot cars, 89 foot cars or 299 foot cars?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point."
If I place a fusee trackside (being careful not to burn anything down), the engineer is required to hold restricted speed for one mile. Period. Given access, I could go almost to the end of that mile to place my banner. Usually it's a quarter mile, give or take, but I try to include a curve.
A fusee or flag placed inside Rule 98 territory (restricted speed) requires a stop before reaching same.
We can use cones now, too, in place of the fusee.
I can't give them permission to resume track speed, either.
1/2 the RANGE OF VISION - not exceeding the speed mentioned (some carriers 15, others 20 MPH).
Operating long hood forward, the Engineer has much less vision on right hand curves than on left hand curves. Operate accordingly and under those circumstance 15 MPH fully EXCEEDS 1/2 the range of vision..
mackb4A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point.
One of our conductors once pulled an inadvertent efficiency test on his engineer.
In the course of planning for some special event, he placed a traffic cone trackside to mark a stopping point.
Turns out they weren't going to use the stopping point (I think the special event was cancelled), but the conductor didn't pick the cone up.
On another scheduled trip a few days later he noticed the train (he was conductor) slowing. He called the engineer on the radio to ask why, and it was because of the cone. After confirming between them that it was the cone he had placed, the they went their merry way.
Since we run through the woods, we occasionally encounter a tree down trackside. Some trees (particularly some evergreens) turn red after they die, so you kind of perk up when you first spot one down the tracks.
Instead of crossings an overpass could be planned but unfortunatly the same people bitching would probably turn that down.
Don't blame the railroad for the town being dirt cheap.
BigJim wrote: Even 3 minutes of delay can mean the difference between life and death. I fully understand what you are saying. Even seconds could make the difference. However, it is a moot point. What if the train had gone into emergency from a break in two instead? I agree, going into emergency is unplanned. A banner test is planned, sort of.I once was trying to pull a hill where at the crest was a road crossing. Due to rain and grease and the type of units, they would get very little traction. I was down to about 2mph and two fire trucks on their way to whatever, pulled up to the crossing just as my lead unit passed over the crossing. Now what do I do? I tried to clear the crossing as quickly as possible, but the units couldn't get any traction. I was in a "Catch 22" situation. Even after topping the hill and getting more and more tonnage over the top, the train just wouldn't accellerate due to loss of traction. It took forever to clear that crossing. I did all that I could do and it wasn't fast enogh for me and I'm sure it was excruciating for the rescue workers envolved. I would HATE to in that situation. on either side of the crossing gate.
Even 3 minutes of delay can mean the difference between life and death. I fully understand what you are saying. Even seconds could make the difference. However, it is a moot point. What if the train had gone into emergency from a break in two instead?
I agree, going into emergency is unplanned. A banner test is planned, sort of.
I once was trying to pull a hill where at the crest was a road crossing. Due to rain and grease and the type of units, they would get very little traction. I was down to about 2mph and two fire trucks on their way to whatever, pulled up to the crossing just as my lead unit passed over the crossing. Now what do I do? I tried to clear the crossing as quickly as possible, but the units couldn't get any traction. I was in a "Catch 22" situation. Even after topping the hill and getting more and more tonnage over the top, the train just wouldn't accellerate due to loss of traction. It took forever to clear that crossing. I did all that I could do and it wasn't fast enogh for me and I'm sure it was excruciating for the rescue workers envolved.
I would HATE to in that situation. on either side of the crossing gate.
A couple of tests of trains I was on come to mind. I was still a conductor both times.
The first we were on a local going thru West Des Moines. This was an area that had a lot of new housing being built. At the next crossing, about a half mile or so we saw an orange-reddish object. We weren't sure what it was, it kind of looked like a traffic cone laid over. About a quarter mile from it was a temporary private crossing for the building contractors. My engineer blew the horn a couple of times for it even though there wasn't any traffic there. After that the Des Moines MTO (trainmaster to most everyone else) came on the radio and said we had passed his efficiency test and he would pull down his flag and for us to keep going.
The next time was on the double main. This was ATC cab signal, no way side signal territory at the time. At MP 236 was a hold point and a block boundry. We went past that point and are cab signal went to restricting. Continuing on at restricted speed, we passed a couple more boundries and the cab signal never cleared up. Out about MP 228 we called the dispatcher and said we thought our cab signals had failed and asked for permission to cut them out and run on an absolute block. The dispatcher said to continue on under train control.
Just after the dispatcher got off the radio, we heard the assisstant MTO tell a train over the radio, "high ball." We then knew why we were under train control. We come into Grand Jct at MP 225 and there he is. His flag was a red metal sign, the kind M O W use for Form B track protection, between the rails. We stop, get debriefed. As we start to pull, the dispatcher comes on and tells him, "Per MTO ----, get your red board down and pull up your track shunts. I have 7 trains getting close to you and most are getting short on time." The senior MTO didn't get along with his assisstant and this episode didn't help.
PS, We don't call them banner tests, we call them stop tests.
Even 3 minutes of delay can mean the difference between life and death.
I once was trying to pull a hill where at the crest was a road crossing. Due to rain and grease and the type of units, they would get very little traction. I was down to about 2mph and two fire trucks on their way to whatever, pulled up to the crossing just as my lead unit passed over the crossing. Now what do I do? I tried to clear the crossing as quickly as possible, but the units couldn't get any traction. I was in a "Catch 22" situation. Even after topping the hill and getting more and more tonnage over the top, the train just wouldn't accellerate due to loss of traction. It took forever to clear that crossing. I did all that I could do and it wasn't fast enough for me and I'm sure it was excruciating for the rescue workers envolved.
.
SFbrkmn wrote:Procedures on moving your train after a banner test is finished would vary by the rr but the testers want to be as stealth as possible on what they are doing. I was banner tested once on the mainline. After stopping and the testers climbed on board and had a saftey briefing, they got off we resumed our trip. Now the rules do state that if you are stopped or delayed, you are to let the DS know. This was done and we told them it was acct of a banner test at mp so-so. Of course the two trains behind us heard all this and that sort of screwed up the testers next surprise test of those trains. I'm sure they didn't like us broadcasting but its in the rules and we were just giving our co workers behind us a heads up.
I agree ,procedures once the banner has been removed may vary from railroad to railroad.But it is a rule in the NS rule book that we notify the dispatcher,or other trains around of obstructions on the rail.Banner or not it is an obstrubtion and it's their (railroad) rules.
Collin ,operator of the " Eastern Kentucky & Ohio R.R."
The longest banner test I had was 3 minutes, the roadforeman removed it after I stopped the train no big deal.
Rodney
Were there better spots? Sure.
Was this spot "wrong"? Nope. Rules is rules, whether there are crossings or not.
A banner test is required on each qualified Engineer on a district in which he/she is qualified on at least once a year.
An approach (or be prepared to stop at the next signal) test is required once a month on each Engineer on a district.
A banner according to the FRA,must be visible within three (3) car lengths of the Engineers vantage point.This was well argued over here on the Pocahontas Division (NS) by the FRA several years back.
Now as far as the location.It is up to the offical doing the banner check in conjuction with the cheif dispatcher.But if it is in violation of local or state laws,that's a matter of law.
In the three states that I run in a train is allowed to block a public crossing for the total time of 15 minutes stopped.If your moving there's really no amount of time.
But to be in complete rule compliance,the crew must stop their train totally.Sound off that you have stopped.Announce on the radio the reason stopped and location.Than notify the dispatcher the reason stopped.The banner is removed to un-shunt the track and your notified by the official it's ok to move,and comfirm with your dispatcher.
All this usually takes at least 15 minutes.
So in my opinion.The CSX was wrong in the location they picked.
carl
cp used to have trackage rights on csx but now they run on the wabash line in montpelier and use the connection in butler indiana.However we do have some visitors that come by like a K 223 that has CP or other power that goes south at Deshler.Also the 508,509 use the nw wye and the 500 and 501 use the sw wye.(just to name a couple).I do go to fostoria sometimes but I can leave my vehicle unlocked in Deshler.The scanner in deshler also helps to identify trains coming as well.
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
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