mudchicken wrote: Before condemning PRR, remember NYC was hardly any better .
Before condemning PRR, remember NYC was hardly any better .
If that comment is intended toward me, not sure that I did "condemn" them, just typifying the way the book portrays their business approach as a self styled 800 lb gorilla out looking after #1.
i'd agree with you though, NYC was likely no better.
I actually enjoy reading about PRR's selfserving exploits, fwiw. Kinda like Godzilla. Even though it was a monster, after enough exposure... you pick up on various character traits that become almost lovable, after awhile
As it pertains to the N&W-WAB-NKP merger, it's entertaining to read just how accomodating PRR tried to be, in hopes of not stirring up any muck that might cloud their own pending merger ambitions.
They went from "fighter" to "marriage counciler" pretty fast.
To add a few points to the discussion- having grown up with in eyeshot of the ex-NKP in Edwardsville I became very interested in this line as a kid since it was my first exposure to a "real" eastern railroad which was very different from the midwestern grangers to which I was more familiar.
The NKP line into East St. Louis did see Berkshires- but only those of the S and S-1 class (701-740)- the heavier S-2s and S-3s were not allowed past Frankfort due to the light (ex-narrow gauge) bridges on the line west of there. Steam ended west of Frankfort in 1955.
The track- although engineered to narrow gauge specs- was still a speedway in the NKP days. From conversations I've had with another family friend who grew up near the NKP in Chapman, IL in the 50s and 60s- the line had 10-12 time freights a day on it. The hottest traffic of those trains were the MB-98, KC-44 and ST-96 hotshots (and their counterparts) in addition to the other regular road freights on the line. Even though track speed was 45 I have read numerous stories of the crews on the Cloverleaf liberally exceeding this limit to get those hotshots over the road.
At the time of the Mode, IL bridge fire in 1976- the N&W was still running MB-98, BS-3 and MB-96- (KC-44, by then MB-44 was zapped in 1972) Amazingly there was even an occasional container train that ran then from Buffalo to Kansas City (SL-1/SL-2). Note that even after the merger old NKP trains kept their NKP symbols- after that the NKP line lost it's through service and was only served by a local Madison-Charleston freight that met and exchanged traffic with a Frankfort-Charleston turn.
Passenger service was handled by trains 9 and 10 between St. Louis and Cleveland- the trains were cancelled in March of 1959.
One note I recall from a historical presentation about the Clover Leaf I once attended in Glen Carbon, IL was that the NKP's life as a through route was extended somewhat by the N&Ws need to rehab and single track the Wabash main across IL and IN. My memories of the old NKP include once watching a westbound empty Coffeen coal train drop down Panama hill by Sorento- I recall thinking to myself it appeared as though the train were dropping off the edge of the earth.
Berks did travel the Third and Fourth Subdivisions of the Cloverleaf, known as the St. Louis Division in Nickel Plate days.
I've never been down there but if you read the Rehor book, he calls Sorrento the "Devil's Eyebrow", a nickname it must have acquired early on.
The Cloverleaf traffic west of Frankfort was essentially cut off as a through route sometime around 1975 or 76, when a bridge fire gave the N&W the excuse it was looking for. Does anyone know where the bridge fire was, it's not coming to me, but the bridge was up in flames in minutes, it was somewhere west of Charleston, IL. By the time of the bridge fire, there was a couple of trains a day each way making their way between Frankfort and East St. Louis.
The Clover Leaf was originally built as a narrow-gauge (3') line, which explains its engineering standards or lack thereof. It was going to be part of a proposed narrow-gauge network which never got off the ground.
Passenger service to St. Louis lasted into the late 1950's, a 1960 edition of the OG shows no passenger service on NKP beyond the Buffalo-Chicago line.
RRFoose wrote: Can someone explain exactly how this merger happened? I've tried Googling this stuff, but even Wiki doesn't give me an exact account. I've seen that the PRR transfered it's lease of the Wabash to the N&W in 1960, and thus the Nickel Plate had to ask for inclusion in the merger. I've also seen that the N&W and NKP started talking about merger after PRR and NYC did, and then the Wabash had to ask for inclusion because it had nowhere to go. Which way did it happen?The Pennsy gained N&W stock when it gave the Wabash lease to the N&W. When did they have to give up this stock? In 1968 when the merged with NYC, 1970 when they went bankrupt, or 1976 when CR was created? Again, I've seen different reports on this. I've also heard that the DT&I controlled the Wabash for a period of time? When was this? Was the PRR's lease of the Wabash held by the DT&I, whom itself was controlled by the PRR? In 1963, the DT&I acquired control of the Ann Arbor from the Wabash. Was this so that PRR could retain control of AA after WAB went to N&W?Finally, why did the AC&Y fold into the N&W? They were a small line, and I don't see the importance to N&W. Did they create some special connection that I can't see on a map? Seems as though they could have remained a shortline on their own.Thanks ahead of time for the help! I've seen different accounts on what actually happened - and I'd just like to know the REAL history from a knowledgable source...as apparently not all internet sites can be correct.
Can someone explain exactly how this merger happened? I've tried Googling this stuff, but even Wiki doesn't give me an exact account. I've seen that the PRR transfered it's lease of the Wabash to the N&W in 1960, and thus the Nickel Plate had to ask for inclusion in the merger. I've also seen that the N&W and NKP started talking about merger after PRR and NYC did, and then the Wabash had to ask for inclusion because it had nowhere to go. Which way did it happen?
The Pennsy gained N&W stock when it gave the Wabash lease to the N&W. When did they have to give up this stock? In 1968 when the merged with NYC, 1970 when they went bankrupt, or 1976 when CR was created? Again, I've seen different reports on this.
I've also heard that the DT&I controlled the Wabash for a period of time? When was this? Was the PRR's lease of the Wabash held by the DT&I, whom itself was controlled by the PRR? In 1963, the DT&I acquired control of the Ann Arbor from the Wabash. Was this so that PRR could retain control of AA after WAB went to N&W?
Finally, why did the AC&Y fold into the N&W? They were a small line, and I don't see the importance to N&W. Did they create some special connection that I can't see on a map? Seems as though they could have remained a shortline on their own.
Thanks ahead of time for the help! I've seen different accounts on what actually happened - and I'd just like to know the REAL history from a knowledgable source...as apparently not all internet sites can be correct.
A book well worth reading is Follow the Flag: A History of the Wabash Railroad Company , which I found at my local library.
The book gives a fairly detailed background of the PRR's behind the scenes meddling with most of the eastern railroads during the 20th century, and how those ties played out in the 1960's rounds of merger. Painting the PRR as a reformed ogre of sorts, to the extent in how they went from being a perennial trouble maker to a corporate "nice guy" doing everything they could to make the N&W-WAB-NKP merger go smoothy, in hopes that it might get them favorable consideration for their own ambitions for merger with the NYC.
Good background into the Wabash relationship with Ann Arbor as well as D,T,&I is also included.
Gabe,
I remember reading an article in Classic Trains a few years ago that described the trains and traffic at Frankfort yard for a 24 hr period. IIRC the year was 1960. I'm not home, so I can't check it out.
MP173 wrote: I grew up in Southern Illinois and on family trips we would pass the NKP line running to StLouis. Never did I see a train on this line. Prior to the 1964, was this line very active? My guess is that after the merger the Wabash routing and the the Decatur yard became the preferred routing of St. Louis traffic. Is this correct? One would have to say that NW made a pretty good move to extend out of the coal fields of WVa. In one move they extended the haul of quite a bit of coal to further regions, diversified from a coal hauler to merchandise (Wabash was very much tied to automotive, particularly Ford), and began a consolidation movement of eliminating duplicate trackage (Chicago - Toledo line on the Wabash and St Louis line on the NKP line).Lets not forget the purchase of the Columbus - Sandusky line from PRR. This merger, or purchase seemed to really accelerate the PRR/NYC merger.ed
I grew up in Southern Illinois and on family trips we would pass the NKP line running to StLouis. Never did I see a train on this line.
Prior to the 1964, was this line very active? My guess is that after the merger the Wabash routing and the the Decatur yard became the preferred routing of St. Louis traffic. Is this correct?
One would have to say that NW made a pretty good move to extend out of the coal fields of WVa. In one move they extended the haul of quite a bit of coal to further regions, diversified from a coal hauler to merchandise (Wabash was very much tied to automotive, particularly Ford), and began a consolidation movement of eliminating duplicate trackage (Chicago - Toledo line on the Wabash and St Louis line on the NKP line).
Lets not forget the purchase of the Columbus - Sandusky line from PRR.
This merger, or purchase seemed to really accelerate the PRR/NYC merger.
ed
Ed,
You have a penchant for hitting on the part of the topic that interests me the most. I have always been facinated with the Clover Leaf, St. Louis branch of the NKP. I can find little of any history on it, especially post 1964 history. I always wondered what the traffic was like. Did it have passenger operations? When did they cease? Did Berks traverse this line? How many trains a day did the line see in 1950, in 1960? in 1970?
I once dated a girl who lived along this line north of Coffeen, I probably went on at least two more dates than I otherwise would have just so I could pick her brain about what kind of trains she saw in the early 80s.
Something about the line that always facinated me, is its short line heritage. Even today for the parts that are still there, there are some amazing curves and parts where the track just drops incredibly quickly. It is really hard for me to picture 100-car 6-axle merchandise trains handling the curve at Oakland, IL. While the CNW took coal trains on the line just before Sorento, it was something to see watching SD-50s do what can only be described as a swan dive into "the hole"--as it is known to students of the line.
Gabe
DERECO was set up as a holding company to keep the EL and the D&H at arm's length from the N&W, so that they wouldn't get dragged under by the deteriorating rail fortunes in the northeast.
For some reason, 32 million is the figure that runs in my mind for what the N&W paid for the Sandusky line.
As mentioned elsewhere, the equipment was repainted rather quickly, I'm sure it was all repainted by 1968 and probably before that, compared to now when you can see a lot of Conrail equipment on NS and CSX.
mudchicken wrote:...and who owned/controlled N&W at the time (1964)?
I'm not quite sure - but I know the Pennsy owned a bunch of NW stock at some point.
How come one of the western/midwestern roads didn't make a play for Wabash to get access to Detroit? Or have I answerd my own question right above..? If PRR held large chunks of NW and WAB, they could more easily "give" the Wabash to N&W...and hence the reason they didn't mind a little competition from them - because they were getting part of the revenue as it was.
mudchicken wrote: RRFoose wrote: Ask and you shall receive, right? Thanks for all of the answers! Things are certainly clearler now. I'm sure N&W had to pay a pretty penny for the Sandusky line, as PRR knew they were letting a competitor into their territory. Maybe it was that move that put her where she is today - in the hands of N&W (or it heir at least)!! one word :DERECO
RRFoose wrote: Ask and you shall receive, right? Thanks for all of the answers! Things are certainly clearler now. I'm sure N&W had to pay a pretty penny for the Sandusky line, as PRR knew they were letting a competitor into their territory. Maybe it was that move that put her where she is today - in the hands of N&W (or it heir at least)!!
Ask and you shall receive, right? Thanks for all of the answers! Things are certainly clearler now. I'm sure N&W had to pay a pretty penny for the Sandusky line, as PRR knew they were letting a competitor into their territory. Maybe it was that move that put her where she is today - in the hands of N&W (or it heir at least)!!
one word :DERECO
What exactly about Dereco? That is one of the few examples of N&W making a bad decision it seems...
I am surprised with how thrifty "tight" N&W was i they would spend the money to repaint locos. If the public does not care about paint schemes why bother repainting. Just an off topic thought.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Since NKP and N&W merged, the former NKP was instantly 100% N&W. The N&W leased the Wabash facilities and purchased outright the equipment. The final purchase of Wabash properties was in the late 1980's. I remember Wabash RR preferred stock still listed on the NYSE in the mid 1980's
I believe there was some sort of initial plan to operate the Wabash and NKP as divisions, but that quickly changed. The Ex Wabash GP-35's, and the ex-NKP GP-30's and GP-35 were renumbered with a '3' prefix on the Wabash units and a '2' on the NKP units, kept the original liveries and markings with the exception of a very small NORFOLK AND WESTERN at the top of the short hoods and the new numbers.
The NKP and N&W started talking in 1960, and the Wabash was included later that year. The Wabash controlled the Ann Arbor RR from 1925-1963 and later the AA was acquired by the DT&I. Included were some AA steel cabooses of Wabash design that later became DT&I. The DT&I and Wabash were both controlled by PRR subsidiary PennRoad.
ValleyX wrote:It was termed a merger, I've never heard of it referred to as a sale. The NKP stockholders received .45 of a share of N&W stock for every share of NKP stock held. This comes from Rehor's book, THE NICKEL PLATE STORY.
MP173 - The NKP St. Louis Line was a poor runner-up to the Wabash St. Louis Line, plus the Wabash line continued west out of St. Louis. NKP had done much to undo the evils of the old Clover Leaf narrow gage line at St. Louis and in eastern Illinois, now EIRR, but it was still lacking. NW kept the best and parted out or abandoned the rest. Having read pieces of the pre-1975 ICC finance dockets, there was a fight to initially cut the main line, but the business was not there and I-70 had pretty well killed off most of NKP's shrinking traffic base.
At inclusion in '64, WAB went in the mix as a 50 year lease to N&W. That lease turned into an outright sale as conditions changed in the midwest and the railroads continue to hemorrage $$$. (and ACY was acquired in '32 by NKP, my notes from the ICC finance dockets show they had 96% at one point making them a ward of NKP(Rehor says 99.5%))....Most books on WAB are rich on pictures and poor on history (Professor George Hilton has lamented that fact often) and NKP and WAB both were not that interested in their history- they purged many historical documents right to the trash bins, especially WAB in the 1920's, instead of finding a home for them in a university collection. [replayed in the 1980's & 1990's]
joemcspadden wrote:The year was 1964, as indicated above. In that year, N&W purchasedthe Nickle Plate outright. At the same time, it leased the Wabashfrom the Pennsylvania Railroad and bought it outright several yearslater, partially with cash and partly with an exchange/return of stock.It is misleading to think of all this using the word, "merger." Therewas no merger involved. In effect, N&W bought these two railroads.Regards, Joe Mc
Joe,
When N&W leased the Wabash, were operations integrated with N&W-NKP's right away? Or did it remain it's own railroad until the buyout and interact with NW as a favored interchange partner? Did Wabash locos travel far off home rails?
Chase
N&W leased the Wabash in 1964, PRR owned a share of the Wabash and a share of the N&W but didn't lease either.
N&W and NKP started talking merger about 1960, not sure where that other figure came from.
DT&I was controlled by the PRR, DT&I was even used as a farm team for future PRR management.
AC&Y was like a belt line across most of Northern Ohio, interchanged with nearly every railroad it crossed. One of its chief interchange partners was at its westend terminus of Delphos, OH, with the Nickel Plate. I think management saw a dim future with a bigger railroad surrounding it.
Wiki is frequently wrongo and slanted.
1964
Go to a Library and check out John Rehor's Nickel Plate Road and Donald Heimberger's Wabash....
ACY was a logical eastward extension of NKP (at least the Van Sweringens thought so) via its old LE&W relationships (later a stepchild of the W&LE...everybody wanted the traffic but not the poor plant)
PRR took over a desparate Wabash in 1928-32 after a failed alliance by Wabash with D&H that tried to take over LV and others to build an eastern trunk.
...most railroad books concentrate on the toys and not the company evolution. Welcome to the real world. Not a place for instant answers.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.