N&W-NKP-WAB Merger Questions

[carnej1]

 One important aspect so far overlooked in this discussion is the fact the PRR had sought to merge both the Wabash and the N&W prior to the first discussion with the New York Central. The Pennsy merger plan was meant to make the railroad competive against a proposed New York Central/ C&O merger.

  I surmise that once the Penn Central merger was imminent, PRR realized that it could not make any moves to block the N&W expansion as that may have brought the ire of the ICC down on the PC plan.....

[DAVID A HYER]

Mode, Illinois is the bridge location

[Convicted One]

Was access to Omaha much of a consideration in the merger?

Did PRR ever eye using Wabash as a line of their own to Kansas City as important?

 

 

N&W really had their eye on the NKP, and it was the Wabash that had the desire to be included as a partof that match up. And, PRR was going to have to get rid of Wabash as a condition of their desire to merge with NYC.

PRR had the Wabash managed as a seperate entity, but there was never any question what dog wagged the tail. Wabash top executives were  often PRR men groomed for the occassion.

Yes, PRR freight bound for Kansas city had a real knack for ending up on wabby rails. 

 

[Victrola1]

Was access to Omaha much of a consideration in the merger? The Wabash went there.

As I recall, this line was abandon over 20 years ago. The line appeared to have been well engineered at one time.

Kansas City remains important. How important was the consideration to reach western carriers directly thus avoiding Chicago or St. Louis? Did Kansas City give the N&W an important leg up on soliciting traffic over PRR, NYC and others? 

Did PRR ever eye using Wabash as a line of their own to Kansas City as important?

 

[Convicted One]

[

  I have always been facinated with the Clover Leaf, St. Louis branch of the NKP.  I can find little of any history on it, especially post 1964 history.  I always wondered what the traffic was like. 

Did it have passenger operations?  When did they cease?  Did Berks traverse this line?  How many trains a day did the line see in 1950, in 1960? in 1970? 

 

Gabe,  

Everything you could ever want to know about passenger operations on the old Cloverleaf, or just about any other Indiana railroad, is nicely capsulized in the book:

 Limiteds, Locals, and Expresses in Indiana, 1838-1971 (Railroads Past and Present)

Check your local library for availability.

One other little tidbit that I unearthed in this book, was the main reason why the Wabash renegged on it's agreement to lease a segment of the Eel River RR between Logansport and Chili, opting instead to travel their own line between Logansport and Peru and then connecting with the Eel  at Chili via the Peru & Detroit.

The main reason was the layout of the Eel River RR at Logansport, swooping over the north side of the city, then entering from the west, it caused westbound trains to be configured backwards. Any train intending to continue on westward, was required to either continue in reverse, pushing it's consist, or to endure a time consuming swap around to get the power back on the leading end.   Which,  I'll say with that knowledge and looking at a few historic maps of Logansport, makes perfect sense.

The book provides last dates of scheduled service (and patronage) for even the most obscure (ex: the Attica-Covington run)  lines, all the way up to data on the PRR's patronage for the joint transcon services provided in conjunction with the big western roads

Hard book to put down

 

 

FYI 

 

 

[ValleyX]

Yes, Gabe, but by the time the deal would have happened, the Cloverleaf was in steep decline, especially the portion east of Frankfort, IN.  West of Frankfort, it wasn't in the best shape, either.  Would Guilford had the money for the rehabs?

[gabe]

Interesting question, I think that had the original Conrail sale gone through and Guilford had expanded, it would have resulted in a hodge-podge of slow order railroads with trackage some shortlines would be ashamed of.  The route may or may not be open today, depending on traffic drummed up, because there wouldn't be that much on-line traffic. 

I wouldn't sell the Nickle Plate line too short.  Let's not forget that line competed with the Pennsy, NYC, Wabash and had fairly impressive running speeds. 

Moreover, as far as long coal trains, I grew up watching a more-or-less daily 113-car coal train (with engines) traverse that line for about 10 years. 

Gabe

[ValleyX]

Somewhere, I've seen other pictures of Charleston but I did find this one.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locThumbs.aspx?id=37179

[ValleyX]

Interesting question, I think that had the original Conrail sale gone through and Guilford had expanded, it would have resulted in a hodge-podge of slow order railroads with trackage some shortlines would be ashamed of.  The route may or may not be open today, depending on traffic drummed up, because there wouldn't be that much on-line traffic. 

[RRFoose]

Growing up in Ohio - and due to the lack of readily available information on the NKP St. Louis line - I don't know much about it.  But from all the conversation here I've gotten the impression that it was hilly with lots of bridges.  I know that when NS wanted to buy CR in the 80s, Guilford was going to get this line as part of the deal as to keep competition in the region.  Despite Pan Am's image today, could this line have remained profitable?  Increase cars sizes - both by weight and dimensions, may have limited train movements.  Unit trains of grain and coal couldn't be as long as neighboring routes, and I'm guessing double-stacks and autorack would be out of the question without bridge replacements.  Would this line have been rebuilt with a Guilford take-over, or eventually scrapped anyway?

[inch53]

I don't remember the tower in Charleston, but the station is still there. I think it served both NKP and NYC. It was for lease the last time I was by.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/inch53/102_1728.jpg

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/32447/ppuser/4309

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/32449/ppuser/4309

Along with some other equipment sheds

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/inch53/102_1459.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g214/inch53/102_1462.jpg

There is a brick freight house still there across the street used by Kirchner lumber. I don't know if it was NKP or NYC though, [sorry I find my photos of it either].

Some one talked about grain being shipped out of Oakland. I think the elevator in Brocton is also shipping grain by rail. The old livestock barn is still standing there too. They have big Draft horse show there during their homecoming festival.

inch

[nordique72]

I can't believe I missed that.  I am kicking myself so hard.  I didn't even know about that.  How far did the Frisco engine go east of Coffeen.  When you were talking about the Photo runbys did you mean the track was bad east of Coffeen so they didn't go further than that.

What I would have given.

Gabe

Gabe,

Right- the organizing committee had gone ot there and saw some of the trestles out east of Coffeen and had gotten the idea to do some runbys out there and pose the train on one of the bridges- but the track condition east of Coffeen was pretty awful and the NS really didn't want a passenger excursion derailing out there so the idea was nixed and the train turned at Coffeen.  The train went as far as the power plant where the consist was turned.

In regards to the big bridges- my favorite that I never got to see a train on was the big bridge west of Ramsey. On the east side of the bridge there was a country road that passed over the tracks on a wooden bridge- what I would have given for a shot of a train there!

[gabe]

Gabe,

 From what I recall- the NS didn't use a train when they pulled the rails on the line in 1994. I don't think they had a single scrap train- rather the line was scrapped by contractors who took the materials by truck to load out sites (I seem to recall the ties were being loaded into gons at Donnellson) and then picked up and hauled off line by the wayfreight as needed.

I definately remember in 1988 going out to Cowden when they had just torn out the B&O and the NS was in the process of cutting back from Mode- we had been tipped off the NS was pulling the rails when we started seeing the scrap trains come by the house in E'ville. I remember the ties were in NW/NS gondolas, while the rail was loaded on Illinois Terminal 50' flat cars. 

 Of course the one of last trains on the line past Coffeen could have very well been the Glen Carbon Centennial train excursion that was pulled by the SLSF 1522 in the summer of 1992- I'll have to look at my father's slides of the event, but I think when they turned the train at Coffeen the consist was backed out east of town aways. (I know he did take a shot of the train dropping down Panama Hill) There had been plans to have some photo runbys on the bridges east of town but I don't think that materialized due to bad track.

I can't believe I missed that.  I am kicking myself so hard.  I didn't even know about that.  How far did the Frisco engine go east of Coffeen.  When you were talking about the Photo runbys did you mean the track was bad east of Coffeen so they didn't go further than that.

What I would have given.

Gabe

[inch53]

Why is there a B&O type signal on the NKP?

ed

NKP and B&O met there and had an inter-change in Metcalf. The EIRR and CSX still do some, but the trackage is getting in bad shape and was suppose to be upgraded, I don't how much was done this year on that end; I haven't been up round there since spring. I think most of their inter-change is with the CN anyway

inch

inch

[nordique72]

Gabe,

 From what I recall- the NS didn't use a train when they pulled the rails on the line in 1994. I don't think they had a single scrap train- rather the line was scrapped by contractors who took the materials by truck to load out sites (I seem to recall the ties were being loaded into gons at Donnellson) and then picked up and hauled off line by the wayfreight as needed.

I definately remember in 1988 going out to Cowden when they had just torn out the B&O and the NS was in the process of cutting back from Mode- we had been tipped off the NS was pulling the rails when we started seeing the scrap trains come by the house in E'ville. I remember the ties were in NW/NS gondolas, while the rail was loaded on Illinois Terminal 50' flat cars. 

 Of course the one of last trains on the line past Coffeen could have very well been the Glen Carbon Centennial train excursion that was pulled by the SLSF 1522 in the summer of 1992- I'll have to look at my father's slides of the event, but I think when they turned the train at Coffeen the consist was backed out east of town aways. (I know he did take a shot of the train dropping down Panama Hill) There had been plans to have some photo runbys on the bridges east of town but I don't think that materialized due to bad track.

[gabe]

Man, the memories you guys are stiring.

Nordique, I too took a similar picture at Cowden, not too long after yours.  Do you know if they pulled out the line use trains?  In otherwords, did we miss the last train to Cowden?  I would have paid good money to see that.  There were some very impressive bridges between Coffeen and Cowden.  It would have been interesting to see a train on one.

Indeed, Metcaff is still served by the EIRR.  When I come home--Indianapolis to Mt. Olive, IL--I go through Metcaff.  Even though it adds over an hour to the trip, the rail action can't be beat.  I have yet to catch even a CSX train in Metcaff.  What I would give to catch an EIRR.  Every time I can, I stop.  It is kind of an interesting place.  Even though the NKP line is cut off about a quarter mile north of the CSX line, it is still pretty interesting, as there is some very light rail and a lot of remnants of "what once was."

Thanks for all the information on the EIRR.  I am glad to see that it appears to be doing fairly well.

Gabe

[MP173]

Why is there a B&O type signal on the NKP?

ed

[nordique72]

nordique:

Where are those ADM unit trains destined to?

I stand corrected on the 4541.  Closer examination of the photo reveals you are correct.

ed

Ed,

I believe the grain goes south on the CN to New Orleans for export- or if the price is cheaper it's hauled north to the CSX at Metcalf for them to take south. The EIRC calls these trains "24 hour trains" since they try to get them up to Oakland, loaded and back to the CN at Neoga within 24 hours.

After looking at the photo links posted by Inch- I noticed that the old NKP style signals are still up at the interlocking in Metcalf- that gives me motivation to get out there someday and shoot them.  The EIRC 1040 shown in the first loco roster shots link has since left- the 7565, 4541 and 700 are their only engines now.

Speaking of photos- here is my photo I took of the end of track at Cowden in the fall of 1993. It wasn't long after this was taken the NS cut the tracks back even further west to just outside Coffeen.

 http://flickr.com/photos/nordique72/2124091802/

 

 

[inch53]

Google earth shows the portion of the former Cloverleaf between Neoga and Metcalf as still being intact. Is this correct? If so who operates it?

EIRR operates that line through there. They inter-change with CSX [B&O] in Metcalf. Here's photos of 2 engines. I can't find a pic of #3

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/69602/ppuser/4309

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/69601/ppuser/4309

Here's some photos from Metcalf, some of the old NKP/B&O signals and such are still in use

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/50946/ppuser/4309

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/50942/ppuser/4309

These are from Neoga

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/65956/ppuser/4309

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/65954/ppuser/4309

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/65953/ppuser/4309

Besides hauling grain, they also haul tank and other cars for 3 plants there by the yards in Charleston. They were also hauling material for Trailmobil [semi trailers] till they close a few years ago.

This year they've been doing a lot of tie replacement and other improvements along the ROW

inch

[MP173]

nordique:

Where are those ADM unit trains destined to?

I stand corrected on the 4541.  Closer examination of the photo reveals you are correct.

ed

[Convicted One]

Google earth shows the portion of the former Cloverleaf between Neoga and Metcalf as still being intact. Is this correct? If so who operates it?

[nordique72]

Ed,

 The EIRC is still in operation- it handles mainly grain products- trains are based out of Charleston. They run a local south to Neoga and another north to Fairgrange on weekdays. They also handle unit trains up to the ADM loadout at Oakland, and back to the CN interchange at Neoga. Those are by far the most interesting trains to catch as they require all 3 EIRC units to haul the grain up to Oakland- the trains are 100 cars, but the EIRC takes them to Oakland in 50 car cuts due to the hills near Charleston.

I would assume the 454 unit you mention is the 4541- an ex-CNW GP9. The other current units are the 7565 and the 700- both GP9 rebuilds.

[MP173]

Yes, the Indiana Hi Rail used Alcos south of Newton...they passed a block from my house.  Rock and Rollin at 5mph.

I do stand corrected about the Eastern Illinois units.  My photos from 11-1-1996 (has it really been 11 years?) show two units working the yard at the north edge of town (near the Trailmobile plant.  The units were 454 and 8089(?).  They are rebuilt geeps, but the nose is configured like an Alco...sort of anyway. Attractive units.

Is the Eastern Illinois line still in operation?  I would assume it handles mainly grain.

ed

[nanaimo73]

The Eastern Illinois line was operated by Indiana Hi-Rail from 5-88 to 3-91, and they had a few Alcos. Perhaps that is what Ed saw. IHRC Alligators were used on the ex IC line running south from Newton. MC might know a bit more. 

When EIRC took over in 1991, at first they used a CF7.

[nordique72]

I vaguely remember (or at least think I do) a visit to Charleston, circa 1976 or so.  It seems like there was a tower at the NW/PC crossing.   Perhaps I entered that tower, only to find no one there.  I have no photos documenting the tower, but in those days, 35mm exposures were carefully allocated, primarily to trains.

Was there a tower at Charleston?  Does anyone know when it was abandoned? 

A few years ago I was in Charleston and watched the shortline in action in the yard north of town.  Alco's I believe was the power.

 

ed

 Ed,

The tower at Charleston was called CO Tower- it was located on the east end of Charleston just off Railroad Ave on the west throat to the yard. The NYC (PC) ran east to west and the NKP crossed it at a northeasterly angle before turning directly north in the middle of the yard. I don't have a specific date- but I am willing to guess the tower was demolished when the NYC was abandoned from Paris to Pana in the early 80s. The Eastern Illinois RR ("the E-I-E-I-O") runs the line now with an assortment of chopnosed Geeps- I don't think they ever had Alcos.

Also to add to my previous post here are the posted speed limits on the 3rd and 4th Subs- Madison to Frankfort from the laat issued NKP timetable in 1963-

                                                      Passenger          Freight

                 Madison to Edwardsville-      65                     55

                 Edwardsville to Sorento        59                     49

                 Sorento to Donnellson          65                     55

                 Donnellson to Humrick          59                     49

                 Humrick to Mellott               65                     55

                 Mellott to WY (Frankfort)     59                     49  

There are noted speed restrictions in various places as one would imagine, such as 35 over certain west siding switches and some curves (45-50 restrictions) and interlockings- but this is still impressive speeds for 1963 on the NKP.     

[aricat]

The N&W did receive what was referred to as the Sandusky branch as part of the merger. The Pennsy did, however, continue to operate on most of the line through trackage rights. This line was important because it helped N&W compete with C&O more effectively for the coal traffic.

[MP173]

Gabe:

It looks as if your questions were answered regarding the scheduled trains.  If I had several "re-do's" from the 70's, tracking down a train on the line would be one of them.

I vaguely remember (or at least think I do) a visit to Charleston, circa 1976 or so.  It seems like there was a tower at the NW/PC crossing.   Perhaps I entered that tower, only to find no one there.  I have no photos documenting the tower, but in those days, 35mm exposures were carefully allocated, primarily to trains.

Was there a tower at Charleston?  Does anyone know when it was abandoned? 

A few years ago I was in Charleston and watched the shortline in action in the yard north of town.  Alco's I believe was the power.

 

ed

[RRFoose]

Does anyone have pictures from this area where trains appeared to "fall off the cliff" as they went down into the bowl?  I think it'd be nice to see!

[Convicted One]

You guys having interest in the cloverleaf, have you seen all this:

 

 1920's Public timetable

 1906 Public Timetable

 And one I found particularly interesting the following book that describes the physical plant (rails, ballast beds, etc) in surprising detail (well worth downloading the plug in to view the book page by page)

 

Oh, and don't miss this System map, profile chart and rail listing