There is a great picture out there, but I am not at liberty to share it with anyone. Suffice to say that a tanker on end is quite a sight. This is something you can't cover up very well!
Maybe someone has some pictures they will post to show what can happen when it all goes wrong?
Think Amtrak pictures we all saw when it rear-ended the container train. Only think in reverse - that comes pretty close.
Mookie
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Mookie wrote: Great information as usual. I saw a blind shove several years ago and got all excited about it, since it was fairly long and I was just positive it wasn't right. Have since found out that since it was going into the yard it was set up with permission of the yard and obviously had every safety feature needed to make it a safe move. It was a thrill just the same. Seeing a long string of flat cars moving backward with no human able to ride the point and the engine around a curve so it couldn't be seen. (there were track people working in the area and watching the crossing which was gated.) It was a spooky thing to watch. Mook
Great information as usual.
I saw a blind shove several years ago and got all excited about it, since it was fairly long and I was just positive it wasn't right. Have since found out that since it was going into the yard it was set up with permission of the yard and obviously had every safety feature needed to make it a safe move.
It was a thrill just the same. Seeing a long string of flat cars moving backward with no human able to ride the point and the engine around a curve so it couldn't be seen. (there were track people working in the area and watching the crossing which was gated.)
It was a spooky thing to watch.
Mook
Does anyone has a picture or a film photo?
Per the FRA's 2005 Annual Safety Report, Dec 18, 2006, with the statistics from 2005, which are the last available published so far.
Page 71, Table 5-9, Train Accident by specific cause and type.
Shoving movement, Absence of Man,
(no point protection, or shoving blind)
Resulted in 146 accidents, or 4.2% of all reportable human factor accidents.
This caused 45 collisions, and 57 derailments and 44 "other" meaning hitting a structure, bumper, or some object.
5 of these occurred on main line track, 117 on yard tracks, and 24 on "other" tracks, such as service tracks, RIP tracks and such.
Total reportable dollar value of equipment and material destroyed,
$6,404, 659.00
Total fatalities, 0, non fatal injuries, 2.
The two other "human factor failure" causing more dollar damage was failure to comply with automatic block signal or interlocking signal displaying a stop indication...$16,173,496.00...resulting in 4 deaths and 8 non fatal injuries.
Followed by
Switch Improperly Lined...200 incidents, or 5.8% of accidents caused, resulting in $10,005,718.00 damages, 19 collisions, 151 derailments, 9 occurred on main line, 155 on yard track, and 26 "others".
Total of 9 fatalities and 305 non fatal injuries.
So, you have running past a signal displaying stop, followed by improperly lined switches, then blind shoves as the three major types of accidents causing death and injuries, with the largest loss in dollar amounts.
Each railroad addresses blind shove in their operating rules, and most follow the FRA recommendations.
These recommendations allow shoving half the capacity of yard tracks without a man riding point, as long as point protection is provided in one of the following manners.
A crew member must be in position to have constant visual contact with the leading end of the movement and the track for the entire length of the movement, or a crew member must be in position at the other end of the track, maintaining visual contact of the leading end the entire length of the movement.
Anything over half the capacity of the track and a crewmember must ride the leading end, or a crew member must be in position at the other end of the track, maintaining visual contact of the leading end of the movement and the track the entire length of the movement.
Shoving industry tracks, a crew member must ride the leading end of the movement, stopping the movement no closer than 150 feet from the end of the track, then securing (if necessary) the cars with hand brakes, and then resuming the movement, stopping no closer than 50 feet from the end of the track.
Of course, there are exceptions to these recommendations, as each railroad has slightly different operating practices, and each industry served might require placing cars closer than 50 feet from the end of the track.
These are the FRA recommended operating practices, and differences between these recommendations will be addressed in a particular railroads operating rules.
Personally, I can't understand why anyone would shove blind, when it only takes a little common sense and a little preparation to do it the way the FRA recommends.
I work in a yard, have done so for 11 years, and have always found a way to keep an eye on our shoves.
23 17 46 11
zugmann wrote: There is one situation where we (on my railroad) are allowed to shove blind. If we pull out a yard track, we can shove back into the same yard track with the same or a fewer number of cars without protecting the shove. For example, there is a shop car 40 deep in a string of 100 on a yard track - we can pull out the cars, set out the 40th car, couple the 39 cars back to the remainnig 60 and shove the whole mess back into the track without watching.
There is one situation where we (on my railroad) are allowed to shove blind.
If we pull out a yard track, we can shove back into the same yard track with the same or a fewer number of cars without protecting the shove. For example, there is a shop car 40 deep in a string of 100 on a yard track - we can pull out the cars, set out the 40th car, couple the 39 cars back to the remainnig 60 and shove the whole mess back into the track without watching.
True, a valid case for shoving blind--as long as you're not required to tie back on to the cars remaining in the track.
Dan, I suppose if nobody knew what happened, nobody would get disciplined for blindly colliding with cars in the track. But a real railroader would not take a chance on a missed coupling in this day and age (we used to shove tracks "into the corner" with hind-end protection and without making the joints, as long as we were shoving straight track--but they now insist that we follow operating rules and couple before shoving).
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
sanvtoman wrote: I remember watching shoving moves when i was a kid in the late 60s. Anyway one of the trainmen would ride the top of a box car towards the middle of the train. He would also be passing hand signals to the guys on the ground it was fun to watch at night all you would see was lanterns waving up and down or side tio side. No remote control back then. Just people.
I remember watching shoving moves when i was a kid in the late 60s. Anyway one of the trainmen would ride the top of a box car towards the middle of the train. He would also be passing hand signals to the guys on the ground it was fun to watch at night all you would see was lanterns waving up and down or side tio side. No remote control back then. Just people.
Back then you had 4, 5 or 6 men crewing a train and it worked out well. Here you only have two or even one joysticking a unmanned engine far away.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
the rules say you must be at, on, or ahead of the movement
shoving blindly is just plain stupid to me it means some one is too lazy to do their job a couple of guys did it recently and put two cars on the ground and blocked the main almost hitting a train on the main
That would be spooky Mookie!
Carl,I was speaking in general terms and not 'bashing' RCOs. I wasn't sure how seriously minor derailments (if that's how they're classified) were taken. Sorry to upset you!
If a crew did a shove that didn't hit anything and didn't derail but they were still observed doing it, how much trouble would they be in?
Dan
As with all railroad rules, there are exceptions to every rule. Blind shoves are never permitted except in certain circumstances.
GCOR rule 6.6 picking up crew member, GCOR rule 6.7 Remote control zone, and also territory specific instructions regarding shove lights, cameras, etc.
Shoving cars blind is a risky endeavor and doing so if caught will result in some very harsh discipline. Again, shoving blind outside of the rules does result in bad situations, but not every bad situation is a result of blind shoves. Even when not shoving blind serious problems can arise, usually to a crew not in full control of the movement. I have seen both RCO operators and engineers out of control, shoving to fast for the conditions, not properly giving out signals, what have you.
Also, remember that just because you see a picture with a caption underneath, the true cause of the accident may or may not be due to the stated problem. Broken rails on a protected shove can get out of hand very quickly, derailing several cars before the movement stops.
csmith9474 wrote: CShaveRR wrote: RCOs who have a tendency to be involved in derailments would quickly find themselves under investigation and scrutiny, just as an engineer would. This has nothing to do with shoving blind, for which valid definitions and admonitions have already been posted. (I saw the same pictures that Mookie did, and it always amazes me how high a car can tower over the rest of the train when it isn't horizontal.)http://www.tslb.org/remote_control.htm
CShaveRR wrote: RCOs who have a tendency to be involved in derailments would quickly find themselves under investigation and scrutiny, just as an engineer would. This has nothing to do with shoving blind, for which valid definitions and admonitions have already been posted. (I saw the same pictures that Mookie did, and it always amazes me how high a car can tower over the rest of the train when it isn't horizontal.)
(I saw the same pictures that Mookie did, and it always amazes me how high a car can tower over the rest of the train when it isn't horizontal.)
http://www.tslb.org/remote_control.htm
This parading of various remote-control accidents takes nothing from my statement. Unless, of course, there's proof that these are not being investigated like other incidents that don't involve remote-control operations. And this still has nothing to do with shoving blind, a move that's clearly prohibited by operating rules, and specifically be rules governing remote-control operations.
CShaveRR wrote: RCOs who have a tendency to be involved in derailments would quickly find themselves under investigation and scrutiny, just as an engineer would. This has nothing to do with shoving blind, for which valid definitions and admonitions have already been posted.(I saw the same pictures that Mookie did, and it always amazes me how high a car can tower over the rest of the train when it isn't horizontal.)
RCOs who have a tendency to be involved in derailments would quickly find themselves under investigation and scrutiny, just as an engineer would. This has nothing to do with shoving blind, for which valid definitions and admonitions have already been posted.
CNW 6000 wrote:How similar to this would be having an RCO loco repeatedly smash into things? Or are these derailments and incidents minor enough (fiscally) that the RR can absorb the cost without issue?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
So there is a rule against it.....
I can see saving some steps, but in the two instances I know of, there were some pretty tragic results.
A blind shove, is basically shoving without someone providing point protection. It's against the rules, but crews do frequently do it, to save time, walking, riding the side of a car, etc. If you're confident about the track conditions (like you know the track is clear, and your putting 10 cars in a track that holds 30), it can be a fairly safe action, but there's always the possiblity of something going wrong.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
It's related to the "radar joint" mentioned in an article about the Santa Fe a couple years ago in Trains. Essentially you have no idea where you are going and hope nothing bad happens before you stop in the planned spot. If the planned spot and the actual place you should stop are different, well....
There is always supposed to be someone on the point of a move, even if it means someone hanging off the ladder of the lead car (not a fun job). The move becomes blind when that person can no longer communicate with the locomotive. Before radios, if the engineer couldn't see that person, another crew member would serve as intermediary, relaying the signals. If the train was too long, there were curves, or other obstacles to vision, or not enough crew members, visual communications would be lost - you couldn't see - hence the "blind shove."
With radios, the blind shove is a lot less common. I can talk to the engineer even though I can't see him or her.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Imagine that!
Over the years I have heard stories and seen pictures of a "blind shove" gone horribly wrong.
I could drop an e-mail or two and have my question answered, but for the one other person out there that doesn't know anything about this can someone explain a blind shove?
Then my question, which is a little harder - why are they permitted at all or at the very least, why are they even used?
Thank you!
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