"F"

[jrw249]

He's saying the track is clear to go back 5 cars  and will couple up to cars 2 cars back. How can it be clear 5 cars back when they will couple at 2 cars back !!!!!!

[Murphy Siding]

No the best one i have had is start em back clear 5 couple in 2

That went right over my head.  (Not hard to believe.)  What was he trying to tell the engineer to do?

[zugmann]

ou can also use direction...

 shove west, pull east... (as long as you rmember which east is east). 

"5 cars east, 9234..."

"east?  you mean west?"

"roger, the other east."  

[zardoz]

But when switching and signaling, are you signaling relative to the orientation of the locomotive (weather the front or back is coupled to the train), or are you signaling relative to where you are and the locomotive/train is?

Ed's operating rules use different signals for day and night.  When giving hand signals by day, signal are given based on your relation to the engineer.  Lantern signals at night are given based on the direction the locomotive is facing (IIRC).  Radio commands are always given with respect to the locomotive.

My operating rules state that all commands, radio, hand, or lantern, are to be given according the direction the locomotive is facing.  To avoid confusion, I always used Pull and Shove, instead of Ahead and Back.

Nick

"Pull" and "shove" works ok until you have cars coupled to both ends of the locomotive.  It also necessitates the Engineer knowing where the person giving the commands is located relative to the unit, which can get confusing if you are working with two or more ground personel.  As long as the Engineer (and Traincrew) know where the relevant "F" is, "ahead" and "back" always work.

When doing industry switching, it is easy for the Traincrew to get confused as to which way the locomotive is facing.  That's when the experience of the engineer comes into play--if a command does not seem right, a good Engineer will question the intent.

 

BTW: The cab-cars on Metra's suburban trains have an "F" on the end of the coach directly under the Engineer (which is actually the rear of the coach when the train is being pulled).

[jrw249]

That's a good  one Wabash 1

[wabash1]

Don't forget the best:

go ahead and back up... 

 

No the best one i have had is start em back clear 5 couple in 2

[zugmann]

Don't forget the best:

go ahead and back up... 

 

[Dutchrailnut]

A railroad gives timetable direction to Employees, a lot of conductors here on yard moves give you direction.

 south for the pin.

  come north 3 feet for hitch.

 take it south 3 cars.

 etc etc

[nbrodar]

But when switching and signaling, are you signaling relative to the orientation of the locomotive (weather the front or back is coupled to the train), or are you signaling relative to where you are and the locomotive/train is?

Ed's operating rules use different signals for day and night.  When giving hand signals by day, signal are given based on your relation to the engineer.  Lantern signals at night are given based on the direction the locomotive is facing (IIRC).  Radio commands are always given with respect to the locomotive.

My operating rules state that all commands, radio, hand, or lantern, are to be given according the direction the locomotive is facing.  To avoid confusion, I always used Pull and Shove, instead of Ahead and Back.

Nick

[WSOR 3801]

You would be telling the engine to move forward or backwards. 

Sometimes, if a guy gets confused, he'll say "Bring it my way" or "Take it your way".  The hooger usually responds with which direction he is moving, forward or back.   

[stmtrolleyguy]

Okay, I get that the "F" denotes the "front" of the locomotive.

But when switching and signaling, are you signaling relative to the orientation of the locomotive (weather the front or back is coupled to the train), or are you signaling relative to where you are and the locomotive/train is?

If it was dark, and I gave a come ahead signal, as  edblysard said, then I want the locomotive to go away from me, or I signal to back up and have the train come towards me.   If you always go away from the signaler when giving a go ahead, then it doesn't have anything to do with which way the locomotive is facing - the signal would be to move away from you, whichever direction the locomotive is facing.  Where you (the singalman) are standing dictates the signal and the direction of travel - not the front of the locomotive.

[Dutchrailnut]

• Am I wrong, or was this posted before, and the conclusion re: "F" meaning front was busted, I can't remember what the "F" means but the conclusion was it did NOT mean front, anyone remember???

 

•  here is my answer posted a few before your question with a direct quote from FRA rules:

Federal law mandates the railroads to physicaly assign the Front.

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents


                            Subpart A_General

Sec. 229.11  Locomotive identification.

    (a) The letter ``F'' shall be legibly shown on each side of every

locomotive near the end which for identification purposes will be known

as the front end.

    (b) The locomotive number shall be displayed in clearly legible

numbers on each side of each locomotive.

 

Reason for this , how would you know front end of a RDC, or UP TES unit or a GE 45 tonner.

[oltmannd]

The Mech Dept needs it, too.  They need std nominclature for identifying defects. 

[CNW 6000]

I thought the "F" meant that type of coupler and there was also an "E" type.  Or is that practice no longer in use?

[tatans]

Am I wrong, or was this posted before, and the conclusion re: "F" meaning front was busted, I can't remember what the "F" means but the conclusion was it did NOT mean front, anyone remember???

[edblysard]

Your right, Ty...

It's for us stupid people.

Lets say you are on the rear point of a 50 car cut, and the locomotive is coupled to the cut at the long hood...the "F" is on the short hood.

You want the engineer to shove the cars towards you...what do you tell him...if you tell him come ahead, your out of luck, because the front of the locomotive is facing away from the direction you want to go and the engineer will drag them away from you.

 

Simply put, your not talking to the engineer, but to the locomotive, and you have to have a common reference point...you want the locomotive to back up or go ahead, your personal point of reference and directional orientation is immaterial, it all depends on which end of the locomotive is designated as the front.

It makes little difference in how the machine operates, they run just as well in reverse as in forward, but it makes a would of difference when your shoving/spotting an industry.

 

At night, with the same cut of cars and the locomotive coupled the same way, your lantern signals are designed with the same concept...your "talking" to the locomotive...if you give a "go ahead" signal, the engineer will pull away from you...a back up will have him shoving towards you.

 

Wow, even you forget?

Amazing...hope it doesn't happen to you next time you're shoving a cut of ammonia tanks into a plant with a stub track and no bumper....

 

The rule is there for a reason, and it is used every single day by every single conductor, brakeman and switchman on every single railroad.

[tree68]

If you're giving hand signals to the engineer, it's really handy having a convention of which end is the front, especially since both ends of the locomotive get to be the "front" from a direction of travel aspect on most of our trips.  Both our ALCo RS-3 (NYC) and our GP9 (PRR) were built to run long hood forward. 

[Dutchrailnut]

Fedral law mandates the railroads to physicaly assign the Front.

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents


                            Subpart A_General

Sec. 229.11  Locomotive identification.

    (a) The letter ``F'' shall be legibly shown on each side of every

locomotive near the end which for identification purposes will be known

as the front end.

    (b) The locomotive number shall be displayed in clearly legible

numbers on each side of each locomotive.

 

Reason for this , how would you know front end of a RDC, or UP TES unit or a GE 45 tonner.

 

[Anonymous]

It's for stupid people!

They're also on GE, Alco, and most other units built after a certain period. I have a hunch they were introduced in the transition era so the engineers used to steam locos could tell one end of the RS Units from the other! (Even I forget sometimes!) Then they just never changed the rule.

[espeefoamer]

In the past,some railroads,like Norfolk and Western and Southern, used the long hood of the engine as the front.Several other roads used the long hood as front on road switchers like GP9s or RS3s.What I found curious was that BC Rail used RF and LF to designate right front and left front.

[Ted Marshall]

Ever notice the capital letter F on the sides of EMD locos by the front steps? I'm guessing that it designates the "front" of the engine.

Don't train crews already know that they are about to board the front of the engine by the presence of the cab or vice versa and do they really rely on this? This one really stumps me.