VerMontanan Are there any actual customers between Sault Ste. Marie and Hearst anymore?
Are there any actual customers between Sault Ste. Marie and Hearst anymore?
Nothing but pulpwood spurs for over a decade.
edit. - actually, not quite true, the old OSB plant south of Hawk Junction was re-tooled to produce wood pellets but that only ran for about a year before shutting down again. (~2014)
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
wasdInterchange at Hearst would be forest products, minerals, etc. It is a valuable outlet for this traffic as it would save valuable time rather than riding the beat up rails of the old NTR.
The old NTR has been abandoned west of Calstock since 1986. Westbound traffic goes via Heart to Oba. There's no issue using the NTR rails between Hearst and Cochrane for eastbound traffic and east/south bound loads from Calstock and Hearst absolutely does use this route, heading south to Toronto via Cochrane and North Bay. But for westbound loads that would involve adding at least 1000 miles, four trains and about a week to the journey.
Sometimes commonsense has to prevail. If a large well managed company with deep pockets can't run a particular line profitably then why would one expect that a much smaller company with far fewer resources could do better? Especially when on line customers are few and far between. And yes, the track and physical plant needs to be maintained, and there's a cost to that. CN and others sold lines for a good reason.. and the reason wasn't that they were too profitable and easy to run.
Ulrich Sometimes commonsense has to prevail. If a large well managed company with deep pockets can't run a particular line profitably then why would one expect that a much smaller company with far fewer resources could do better? Especially when on line customers are few and far between. And yes, the track and physical plant needs to be maintained, and there's a cost to that. CN and others sold lines for a good reason.. and the reason wasn't that they were too profitable and easy to run.
In the case of a smaller local shortline, the "personal touch" of local management being able to better respond to a customer's needs vs. being schedule and managed by some corporate office 1000 miles away can help grow a customer base. Someone mentioned Guelph Junction Railway in an early post above, and they grew their customer base immensely in the 20 years since CP pulled out. And if the customer base can grow (or even stay steady) then the big railroad still gets the long haul without the mucking about with the brachline switching.
But for these far-flung backwoods regionals with little to no actual industry, it's a losing proposition.
cv_acr Ulrich Sometimes commonsense has to prevail. If a large well managed company with deep pockets can't run a particular line profitably then why would one expect that a much smaller company with far fewer resources could do better? Especially when on line customers are few and far between. And yes, the track and physical plant needs to be maintained, and there's a cost to that. CN and others sold lines for a good reason.. and the reason wasn't that they were too profitable and easy to run. In the case of a smaller local shortline, the "personal touch" of local management being able to better respond to a customer's needs vs. being schedule and managed by some corporate office 1000 miles away can help grow a customer base. Someone mentioned Guelph Junction Railway in an early post above, and they grew their customer base immensely in the 20 years since CP pulled out. And if the customer base can grow (or even stay steady) then the big railroad still gets the long haul without the mucking about with the brachline switching. But for these far-flung backwoods regionals with little to no actual industry, it's a losing proposition.
I agree, and I'm the one who mentioned the Guelph Junction Railway. Yes, in some cases local management makes all the difference. The GJR is a special case however, given that the operator of the line doesn't need to maintain the physical plant.. that's taken care of by the City of Guelph. But Kudos to Ontario Southland for building that business up to what it is today.. CP apparently couldn't do it or simply wasn't interested. And to think that Ontario Southand likely could have made something out of the line out to Goderich that CP abandoned in 1989. Lots of freight going in that direction as there's a port and a lot of industry and farm land. Too bad CP couldn't find a buyer for that part of it.
UlrichSometimes commonsense has to prevail. If a large well managed company with deep pockets can't run a particular line profitably then why would one expect that a much smaller company with far fewer resources could do better?
Because jsut because they are large does not mean they are well-managed.
Many will step over a dollar to pick up a dime.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Ulrich Sometimes commonsense has to prevail. If a large well managed company with deep pockets can't run a particular line profitably then why would one expect that a much smaller company with far fewer resources could do better? Because jsut because they are large does not mean they are well-managed. Many will step over a dollar to pick up a dime.
Ulrich Sometimes commonsense has to prevail. If a large well managed company with deep pockets can't run a particular line profitably then why would one expect that a much smaller company with far fewer resources could do better?
In going the short line route, the small company generally does not inherit the existing labor contracts that the 'big company' operated the line under. Short line creation is a form of union busting - the Class 1 carriers have been using the tactic for decades. Class 1 employees on what will become the short line are given the option, stay with the Class 1 at some other location or continue to work on the territory that is becoming the short line under whatever work rules and pay rates that the new short line operation will be offering.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Ulrich And to think that Ontario Southand likely could have made something out of the line out to Goderich that CP abandoned in 1989. Lots of freight going in that direction as there's a port and a lot of industry and farm land. Too bad CP couldn't find a buyer for that part of it.
And to think that Ontario Southand likely could have made something out of the line out to Goderich that CP abandoned in 1989. Lots of freight going in that direction as there's a port and a lot of industry and farm land. Too bad CP couldn't find a buyer for that part of it.
I dunno about that one... I don't think there was much of significance on the CP line between Guelph and Goderich and the port is better served by the GEXR ex CN line (which also serves some decent elevators between Goderich and Stratford and on the Exeter branch although they've also lost some traffic like the old Volvo ex Champion grader plant in Goderich). There's just not enough traffic for the two Goderich lines to compete.
And Guelph survived because the city already owned that, and they only had to buy a small piece from CP to maintain the connection to the CN/GEXR in the north end (the original GJR charter built to downtown Guelph, and a cross-town interchange with GTR once existing closer to downtown - part of the ROW is a walking trail).
cv_acr Ulrich And to think that Ontario Southand likely could have made something out of the line out to Goderich that CP abandoned in 1989. Lots of freight going in that direction as there's a port and a lot of industry and farm land. Too bad CP couldn't find a buyer for that part of it. I dunno about that one... I don't think there was much of significance on the CP line between Guelph and Goderich and the port is better served by the GEXR ex CN line (which also serves some decent elevators between Goderich and Stratford and on the Exeter branch although they've also lost some traffic like the old Volvo ex Champion grader plant in Goderich). There's just not enough traffic for the two Goderich lines to compete. And Guelph survived because the city already owned that, and they only had to buy a small piece from CP to maintain the connection to the CN/GEXR in the north end (the original GJR charter built to downtown Guelph, and a cross-town interchange with GTR once existing closer to downtown - part of the ROW is a walking trail).
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
With regards to the CP line to Goderich, it is true that Goderich is only big enough for 1 railroad and that CN/GEXR was a better routing for most traffic due to its ability to accomodate EB and WB flows, but it certainly didn't help CP that Guelph was putting a tarrif on every car north of Guelph.
As a general comment, I think it speaks volumes that CN has run many of these branchlines post-takeover than the shortlines that preceeded them. The GEXR on the Guelph sub and the Kelowna Pacific are some good examples of this.
With regards to the ACR, I think I see ONTC chevrons and passenger service (people really want that back) in that line's future. But again, it seems very strange that CN is willing to pass on a steady flow of ferrochrome from the ring of fire. As a unit train, that is exactly the kind of traffic they love.
Although Goderich has a port, it's all outbound loads of salt direct from the salt mine on the waterfront. With how many freighters that dock there, I doubt if much of the production goes out by rail.
Backshop Although Goderich has a port, it's all outbound loads of salt direct from the salt mine on the waterfront. With how many freighters that dock there, I doubt if much of the production goes out by rail.
Most of the salt that goes out on ships is for road deicing. The stuff that goes out on trains is for other uses. As it is right now, somewhere north of 3000 cars per year are loaded at the port of Goderich (though most of that is not related to interaction between train and ship). Additionally, the port is trying to diversify and sees rail as an important asset.
Beyond the port, there is a plastics manufacturer in Goderich than transloads at the old trailer ramp. Bruce Power also makes use of the tracks near the station to deliver oversized equipment to their power plant at Douglas Point.
Beyond Goderich, the line sees heavy agricultural traffic. Inbound fertilizer and outbound crops keep line busy. In Exeter, the Hensall Co-op warehouse takes boxcars full of seed.
edit: I also think it is worth mentioning that the mine has approximately 100 years left of productive mining activity remaining in its life span.
wasdWith regards to the ACR, I think I see ONTC chevrons and passenger service (people really want that back) in that line's future. But again, it seems very strange that CN is willing to pass on a steady flow of ferrochrome from the ring of fire. As a unit train, that is exactly the kind of traffic they love.
Has there been any progress on building a rail line to the Ring-of-Fire?
Food and Chemical grade salt go out by rail.
MidlandMike Has there been any progress on building a rail line to the Ring-of-Fire?
It won't be a rail line. It will be a road. It will connect with CN at Nakina where the minerals will be loaded on to rail cars to the smelter to be built in Sault Ste. Marie.
wasd But again, it seems very strange that CN is willing to pass on a steady flow of ferrochrome from the ring of fire. As a unit train, that is exactly the kind of traffic they love.
But again, it seems very strange that CN is willing to pass on a steady flow of ferrochrome from the ring of fire. As a unit train, that is exactly the kind of traffic they love.
Chris: Thanks for your synopsis of track on the former Algoma Central! Clearly, the railroad is NOT "mothballed" from The Soo to Hawk Jct. as was stated earlier in the thread, nor is the railroad as completely devoid of traffic.
Interesting about the copper ore concentrate from Michigan destined for Copper Cliff (Sudbury) that it's an all-CN routing through Sault Ste. Marie to Oba. Would it be fair to say that cars originating in Sault Ste. Marie destined for Toronto and beyond on CN also go via Oba, and that only cars from Sault Ste. Marie for destinations on CP use the Huron Central? What is the grade between Sault Ste. Marie and Hawk Jct.? I would imagine approaching 2 percent, though I've not been able to find a profile. Interesting that CN won't route the Sault Ste. Marie-Sudbury cars via the Huron Central (179 miles versus 367 miles via Oba, and that the Oba route has stiffer grades as well as is "All Curves and High Bridges). Would seem to be less-costly (by quite a bit) to route via the Huron Central, but I'm sure CN has a reason to send them circuitously through Oba...
Where are the crews between Hawk Jct. and Hearst based? I would guess in AC days it was Hearst. Might they be from Hornepayne now?
Mark Meyer
VerMontanan Chris: Thanks for your synopsis of track on the former Algoma Central! Clearly, the railroad is NOT "mothballed" from The Soo to Hawk Jct. as was stated earlier in the thread, nor is the railroad as completely devoid of traffic.
It's mothballed. It hasn't seen a train since April 15th. If you don't believe me see this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ryanjgaynor/50429410111/in/photolist-2jQgUG8-2g9jsi9-SjAZWL-2jMXCA4-2gTBLKo-2g9jJh4-2jjBzrB-2k2vu1c-2k1PvVz-2k1TK4z-G3qbd9-2g9ju5g-2k1P93w-M9WGFj-2k1Ped6-HRVZdc-bhGLSg-2DNwQW-2DRYm3-yAzuxk-9ZVnyG-2DTmN1-2HBL3j-7wvqfE-2DKy1t
CN has also openly told government officials that they are going to sell the line in 2 years once their contract with the Agawa Canyon train is up.
I agree that this line isn't devoid of traffic. CN is just pulling a CN and sending cars on wild journeys to avoid having to maintain a direct route which they have a long history of doing. See their Algonquin route, Calgary-Saskatoon route, see what almost happened in New Brunswick, see BC Rail, etc. etc.
No, it is. Bridge traffic is just taking alternate (longer) routes via Toronto. The only actual on-line traffic today is logs. All industry outside of Sault Ste. Marie shut down years ago.
VerMontanan Interesting about the copper ore concentrate from Michigan destined for Copper Cliff (Sudbury) that it's an all-CN routing through Sault Ste. Marie to Oba.
Interesting about the copper ore concentrate from Michigan destined for Copper Cliff (Sudbury) that it's an all-CN routing through Sault Ste. Marie to Oba.
A good portion of the copper concentrate goes to Rouyn-Noranda. But someone local to Sudbury said some of it comes there too. If it's going to INCO for processing, CN has their own interchange to INCO so they would route it on their own line(s) rather than via two other railways (HCRY and CP).
VerMontanan Would it be fair to say that cars originating in Sault Ste. Marie destined for Toronto and beyond on CN also go via Oba, and that only cars from Sault Ste. Marie for destinations on CP use the Huron Central?
That's the way it was traditionally - all CN bound traffic from the ACR went to Oba, eastbound CP traffic at Sault Ste Marie (to Sudbury) and westbound CP traffic to Franz. But with the line dormant, CN traffic is going south on the former SOO/WC, and I assume ALL CP traffic is going via HCRY.
With all of CN's mergers and acquisitions in the US (WC, EJE, etc.) CN can now make a full route from Sault Ste Marie around Chicago and south of the lakes to get to Toronto & east.
VerMontanan What is the grade between Sault Ste. Marie and Hawk Jct.? I would imagine approaching 2 percent, though I've not been able to find a profile.
I have a couple of profiles, would have to flip through them to find the ruling grade(s).
VerMontananWhere are the crews between Hawk Jct. and Hearst based? I would guess in AC days it was Hearst. Might they be from Hornepayne now?
There's a bunkhouse at Hawk Junction. Hearst was not an ACR facility. It was a CN (now Ontario Northland) yard and station. The ACR junction was about half a mile west of the yard and the ACR shared station/yard facilities with CN. I'm not sure if they have a bunkhouse at Hearst or if they use the hotel across from the old station location for their "away" layover.
Just wanted to note that the Eagle Mine in Upper Michigan is a primary nickel mine, although there is almost as much copper reserves. I think that would explain why some of the concentrate goes to Sudbury.
http://eaglemine.com/operations/
Thanks for the clarification, Chris. This might require just your opinion, but what's the reason that CN does such circuity in routing to avoid the ex-ACHB? Just the lack of traffic overall (in other words, the route is circuitous, but there are just so few cars) or that the Sault Ste. Marie-Hawk Jct. line is just too high-maintenance and/or high-cost (grades, curves, bridges)? I'm guessing the latter....
While the route is longer and more circuitous for the cars to take, it allows CN to entirely cancel a pair of trains between Hawk Junction and Sault Ste. Marie and reduce frequency between Hawk and Hearst. The cars then just get handled by other existing trains, so it's not like they running another train somewhere else.
That's a lot of operating costs (crews, engines, fuel, etc.) and maintenance eliminated by mothballing the line.
cv_acr While the route is longer and more circuitous for the cars to take, it allows CN to entirely cancel a pair of trains between Hawk Junction and Sault Ste. Marie and reduce frequency between Hawk and Hearst. The cars then just get handled by other existing trains, so it's not like they running another train somewhere else. That's a lot of operating costs (crews, engines, fuel, etc.) and maintenance eliminated by mothballing the line.
Though certainly not in the public interest. But CN isn't in the business of public interest. That's why we need Ontario Northland ownership of this line.
The alleged "public interest" is what led to the Penn Central debacle in the United States and Crowsnest Pass noncompensatory grain rates in Canada.
CSSHEGEWISCH The alleged "public interest" is what led to the Penn Central debacle in the United States and Crowsnest Pass noncompensatory grain rates in Canada.
Public interest also led to Ontario Northland, the Gaspé Railway, VIA Rail, Amtrak and just about every commuter service. Railways provide a public service, and if the private sector is not able to provide that service in an efficient, competitive way, than the public sector might have to step in.
MidlandMike Just wanted to note that the Eagle Mine in Upper Michigan is a primary nickel mine, although there is almost as much copper reserves. I think that would explain why some of the concentrate goes to Sudbury. http://eaglemine.com/operations/
That makes sense. And the copper goes to Noranda.
I think one of the most interesting aspects of CN's branch line return is that some lines that were once the exclusive domain of light, lower horsepower, usually 4-axle locomotives are seeing the arrival of 6-axle mainline power, most commonly, dash 9s. The two best examples of this are the former SOR run to Hagersville/Nanticoke, and the Kelowna Pacific.
CN Hagersville Subdivision: https://youtu.be/XEY0BTAwzBQ
CN Okanagan Subdivision: https://youtu.be/t2i-d4s1ytk
The Okanagan line was rehabbed with heavier welded rail in the first year or two after CN re-acquired it. The big 6-axle road units didn't venture up there until after that work was completed.
I believe the ex-WC GP40's were regulars on that run for a while, as they are some of our only 4-axle units that are equipped with dynamic braking.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Here is another amazing example of big GEs where you wouldn't expect to see them. This video shows a CN ES44DC in Goderich! It was taken in late summer 2019 on a track evaluation train.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdz57E37lb8
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