davidmbedard wrote: From the Athearn web site..."Key FeaturesBoiler backhead with printed gauges Individually applied piping, valves, generators, etc. Operating eccentric cranks on both sides operating in correct direction Adjustable cab windows Headlights and number boards with directional light change Five pole, skewed armature motor with dual flywheels for smooth operation Pivoting front and rear engines for negotiating 22" radius curves See-through running boards Smoke unit ready with no soldering required "Sorry Cuda....if you want to run big steam, you will need big(ger) radius. Even at 24" you are pushing the boundries of this loco. David B
From the Athearn web site...
"
Key Features
Sorry Cuda....if you want to run big steam, you will need big(ger) radius. Even at 24" you are pushing the boundries of this loco.
David B
Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will.
unionpacificchuck wrote: davidmbedard wrote: From the Athearn web site..."Key FeaturesBoiler backhead with printed gauges Individually applied piping, valves, generators, etc. Operating eccentric cranks on both sides operating in correct direction Adjustable cab windows Headlights and number boards with directional light change Five pole, skewed armature motor with dual flywheels for smooth operation Pivoting front and rear engines for negotiating 22" radius curves See-through running boards Smoke unit ready with no soldering required "Sorry Cuda....if you want to run big steam, you will need big(ger) radius. Even at 24" you are pushing the boundries of this loco. David BOk you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will.
Hark! Hear the babble of one unschooled in problem solving.
Bottom line, if all 4 axles are flanged there will be problems at tight radius. If there is any flaw like a twist or dip/rise in the rails anywhere the engine will fail to stay on the track.
I recall an old cartoon that had a door hinge cut and bolted into a boiler that is sawed in half to accept it.
CudaKen,
I will throw in my 2 cents here to get back on track. First, I see that you are not having issues with the locomotive on 18" radii turns. You are having them on larger turns though. I just went through this with my BLI 2-10-2 and had to rework 3 of my curves. Here is some ideas that I did to locate my issues.
1. Check to see where the locomotive is derailing. Is it the same place in the curve or an approximate location.
2. As mentioned before check for dips and rises in the rail.
3. Verify that your curve is not tightning up to a tighter radii before the derail or at the derail point.
The biggest thing you will find is that these large locomotives require very true track. There can be a slight imperfection in the track that may not be noticeable to us, but it will be noticeable to the locomotive and try to get the best of you while trying to figure it out.
I was driving my dad crazy with the number of times that I was tearing up the curves to get the 2-10-2 to go around without derailing. It is all good now and well worth the time and effort put into it. It looks great on the layout and now we are back into making progress - starting the scenery now by painting the track tonight.
I hope this might help,
Jeff
Jeff in the back of my mind I keep thinking it is my track. I know each engine can react driffrent just there quricks. (spell check) Bugs the Coboose out on me why the 4009 track like a champ across the same rails for 100 hours and 4020 cannot make it around one time!
It does derail in the same spots on the B-line and the feeder wire is not the problem as one pointed out. I ran the gauge in the derailing spot and it is not tight like I hoped. Only ran it 6 feet before it derailed on the A-line that is DC only. It is all so the Line that is at the edge to the leap of death (2"s and it on the floor)
Up Chuck as I said in my PM to you about the tress you don't want this one but if you have $350.00 to spend I will bring it to you and 40 tress as well.
Jeff, one other thing that bugs me. Only the 4020 BB has a problem with my rails! If I relay the rails could the other engines start having problems? I have 50 other engines that think they are just fine. I like the Big Boy the best but?
I the PIC of 4020 there was no drag on the engine.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Ken,
You have a larger roster than I do :) Anyway as far as redoing the track work, take your time and be particular about no imperfections. If you do this, then all your other locos shouldn't care about the new track work.
If you are using flex track for the curves then make sure the fixed rail is on the outside of the curve and solder the joints. I stagger and solder my joints and do this while the track is straight before being laid. I also trim the rail hold downs on the ties where the track joiners are. This keeps the track from having a lump there.
Another thing I found with mine was a piece of cork was found under one of my rails and it was enough to derail the locomotive. My BLI 2-10-2 is designed for 22" radii and even the manufacturer states it runs best with 22" radii. They don't say it has to be perfect track and that it is really picky about the track.
Just keep trying things I know it can be discouraging, but it will work out.
unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will.
Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588
AggroJones wrote: unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will. Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?
4005, and unsuccessfully at that. They were never able to heat the firebox evenly.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
SteamFreak wrote: AggroJones wrote: unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will. Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?4005, and unsuccessfully at that. They were never able to heat the firebox evenly.
Right. but I was asking the kid claiming his "UP skills" are superior.
But more back on topic. A few people state running the worlds largest steamer on sharp train set type curves. Sorry, it still straining the hell out of the engine. even if you say they can handle it with no problem. I've operated a stable of large steam, plenty of experience. Properly lubricated too, a 4000 still has a hard time. I've done the test. Watched the amp meter needle dancing during the attept to send a Big Boy around 24". The sharper the curve, the more likelyhood for problems.
AggroJones wrote: SteamFreak wrote: AggroJones wrote: unionpacificchuck wrote: Ok you must not know your UP, i am defending Ken MR said both the athearn and pcm would run on 18's and mr was right they do they run fine so he is not pushing the boundries just running on the edge on a brokejn trestles. Once again read up on your UP skills like i have spent my time doing. Don't bother asking me trivia q uestions because i will get them right. no kidding i will. Hmmm. M'kay boy.... What was the number of the only Big Boy ever to be fired by oil?4005, and unsuccessfully at that. They were never able to heat the firebox evenly. Right. but I was asking the kid claiming his "UP skills" are superior.
I know. I couldn't help myself.
Granted, the wider the curve, the better it's going to perform, but I have a number of long wheelbase locos with enough articulation and lateral driver play that they can glide through sharp curves without breaking a sweat. Ken has stated numerous times that his first BB had no problem with 18", and that this one is derailing on larger radii only, which suggests something is interfering with the travel of the front engine or lead truck. I ran my old Rossi Big Boy on trainset curves when I was a kid without any problem or undue wear. That was 1960's technology. Unless a manufacturer makes the rear engine rigid or restrains the articulation with greater detail, it should cope just fine.
Safety Valve wrote:Well, the Proto 2-10-2 Heavy has SO much slop in all the wheels it worries me; I have no doubt that I can jam the thing through number 4 switches but wont do it.
Five coupled sets of drivers is pushing it with trainset curves. Does the play affect the running qualities at all? Those Protos are supposed to be excellent performers.
SteamFreak wrote: Safety Valve wrote:Well, the Proto 2-10-2 Heavy has SO much slop in all the wheels it worries me; I have no doubt that I can jam the thing through number 4 switches but wont do it.Five coupled sets of drivers is pushing it with trainset curves. Does the play affect the running qualities at all? Those Protos are supposed to be excellent performers.
I dont do trainset curves. The engine is one of the best runners in my fleet. Im just pointing out that perhaps maufactors may have decided to loosen (Literally) standards to get as many sales as possible.
Aggro, I know you can link me to a pick of a 4-12-12-4 or whatever that Russkie behemoth is...I mean, if anybody could, it would be you.....tell me I'm right.
Sorry, Ken et al, I'm adrift, but I had to ask.
Safety Valve wrote: SteamFreak wrote: Safety Valve wrote:Well, the Proto 2-10-2 Heavy has SO much slop in all the wheels it worries me; I have no doubt that I can jam the thing through number 4 switches but wont do it.Five coupled sets of drivers is pushing it with trainset curves. Does the play affect the running qualities at all? Those Protos are supposed to be excellent performers.I dont do trainset curves.
I dont do trainset curves.
I realize that, but you're right - beginners still use them and manufacturers are going to try and maximize their market. I was wondering if there were any compromises made, though. For example, I bought one of those Bachamnn Plus Northerns in the early nineties, and they had a lot of lateral play. The frame was narrow, so the engine would drift from side to side on straight track. Most I've seen since have the end drivers fixed, and the center sets have the play.
selector wrote: Aggro, I know you can link me to a pick of a 4-12-12-4 or whatever that Russkie behemoth is...I mean, if anybody could, it would be you.....tell me I'm right.Sorry, Ken et al, I'm adrift, but I had to ask.
This?
Yup, that's it! Thanks, Aggro...you didn't let me down. As Will Smith shouts in "Independance Day", "I gotta get me one of these!"
I figure I'll run flex with 220" radius curves in HO around my garden...it should work.
To UP chuck:
At their furthest point in history, how far west were the UP big boys clear to operate?
let him anwser
again I have to post that the radius it self is not the problem! 4009 did the same rails with no derailling problems! ... Be sides , why only on Left turns and not a right? - Right handed Ken
KEN:
(1) WHY don't you run things the other direction ?
(2) WHAT happens when the pilot truck is removed ? (CLUE).
I realize you like the challenge of learning things the hard way, but - I'm with Crandell - except I would want 36" - 48" curves with that engine.
Betcha (2) BLI 2-10-2's double-headed would work better, ala ATSF, (same money- more traction). Obviously, Athearn's QC hasn't go their act together yet.
(3)Will your LHS let you put 4020's tender on 4009?
Don Gibson, I am pondering picking up another 2-10-2 from Proto for just that reason. I could probably pair the two and walk off with a train for less than some of the more expensive engines.
Sometimes you get more double or even triple heading for the money than one big engine that requires a monstor radius.
Meanwhile, back to the issue at hand of the problematic Big Boy....after reading Ken's description over and over when he shouts "It's not the 18" curve...", he might be right. Ken, you really need to take a close look at your track work on the curve that is causing the problem.
Since on an 18" curve the lead truck and boiler would have to swing wider than on a 24 or 26" curve, it leads me to believe your track is the problem and not the locomotive. After all, if the truck is moving less than it is on an 18" curve, it stands to reason that if it can swing far enough to run on the 18" curve, it should have no problem with the wider curve. Just because the NMRA gauge shows the gauge of the track is within specs, that doesn't mean that the curve is a constant radius through the curve. Nor does it mean that the railheads are in the same plane. If one railhead is higher or lower than the opposite, you will have trouble with that locomotive going through that curve.
Just my
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
unionpacificchuck wrote:what would you know you have a crappy rivarossi.
Who, me?
See, that's not funny Chuck, just insulting. You're going to have to drop the attitude if you want to engage in some online banter and get along with people.
AggroJones wrote:To UP chuck:At their furthest point in history, how far west were the UP big boys clear to operate?let him anwser
Don, as far as removing the front tuck I was toying with that idea. Never did run it the other drection and I never will. I wish K-10 Trains would let me have back the 4009 and keep the 4020 tender but then I am sure Athearn would not give him the money back.
Up Chuck is right about the Athearn Big Boy.
I will ask you folks one thing, I know that Up Chuck has said some, well odd and not just right claims. But if Chuck answer my posting and unless he says some just off the wall BS forget the pass. Remember when most of us where his age we did not have computers. If he goes Dingbat, nail his happy %&^!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the Oil Buring Big Boy, as far as I know only one. They only used one burner and it would not heat the water evenly. You would think they might have tried 2 or 3 of them? That is one of the reasons they never restored any of the Big boys. UP will not run coal on there lines anymore.
Now back to my mess. Last night I ran 4020 again with out a drag. Remember there are 3 athearn .015 spacers under the front truck so tipping of the truck is over. Ran it at a slow speed say 25 sMPH apx. Made 6 passes with no problem on the B line. Hum, could it had fixed it self? (I have had 4 engines for what ever reason that would not track right for a while then no problems but never a steamer. My first Athern was a super weight F-7A and was a POS for a while then one day it stayed on the rails and still does)
OK 4020 is tracking lets give it a little more steam! Cranked it up to about 40 sMPH and made it around 2 times then rear drive wheel came off passing throught a Atalas # 8 turn out then derailed around the next left hand turn! OK, it is my rails, that I can fix. Filed down the frog some and gave it a nother pass, 2 times and derailed again. Worked the frog a little more and ran it again made it 4 times and I was up to say 50 sMPH. Great it lives!!!!!!!!!!
Tonight I was full of hope with visons of 4020 pulling a 40 car drag in my head. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy! 4020 was sitting on a straight section, turned on the light, sounded the bell and blew the whistel so the in my little world we knew that Thunder Geting Ready To Roll. Life is good.
Thunder rolled for about 2 feet and stopped! Chuffing sounds keept going, bell keep going and would make all it sounds just not MOVE!
Well I am done with this Big Boy, it a big something but not what I want. I really hopped it would live I did not want to return it for my money back from my LHS and buy off the internet. But K-10 cannot get a PCM.
MY NEXT POSTING WILL BE HOW TO KEEP A PCM BB ON THE RAILS!
Chuck, GO TOO BED! I don't get home to 10:00 and I am off Thursday and Friday so that is why I am up late. But it time for me to go to the round house as well. M1a steamer is pulling up to the warehoues to be un loaded to night and the SD-7 is pulling to a passing spur for a crew change. Big Boy is waiting for the scrap heap to be made in to bumpers for 61 Chevys.