Maybe now we will get the best ever MTH Big Boy in HO now, or a Challenger, or maybe one of the FEF-3.
Does this mean Union Pacific will now use DCS to run their railroad?
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
Is it just me, or was an aweful lot of time, energy, and money (not to mention cyber space in threads and posts here and on other sites) wasted just to bring all full circle to exactly where we started? Just a thought.
Ron
Owner and superintendant of the N scale Texas Colorado & Western Railway, a protolanced representaion of the BNSF from Fort Worth, TX through Wichita Falls TX and into Colorado.
Check out the TC&WRy on at https://www.facebook.com/TCWRy
Check out my MRR How-To YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/c/RonsTrainsNThings
Fergmiester wrote:Though I appreciate Mr Wolf's efforts.A wolf despite the sheep skin clothing will always be a wolf...
Hopefully though, he will continue to contribute positively to the hobby. I think in the long run if we see no more proprietary style lawsuits from MTH that adversely affect the hobby, many modelers that distrusted and disliked Mike Wolf and MTH may be in a much more forgiving mode.
Uh, but let's not forget that this benefits his company as well.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Hey guys - just remember.....although it sounds like Mike Wolf deserves a lot of credit.......
PLENTY of other folks - including a fair amount of whining by certain model train shop owners, wink wink - were in on trying to get this reversed.
Just got off the phone to confirm that apparently as far as Athearn products are concerned, any UP-related item that was priced higher due to all this stupidity is now going to go back to the same MSRP that would be on a non-UP related item.
This is very very good news.
We all -- even those of us who do not model UP or any of its "merged" roads -- owe Mike Wolf and Nils Huxtable a big "Thank You".
Now it's about those "SD70ACe locomotives in UP colors and bearing the logos of model railroad manufacturers and the Union Pacific". I hope that's a two way street and UP will paint at least one SD70ACe with the logos of the model railroad manufacturers. This would avoid having models with no prototype but which would be the model and which would be the prototype?
Chuck
ChuckAllen, TX
Now maybe I can buy some of those previously licensed products again. What joy!
MAYBE.
ericboone wrote: TrainFreak409 wrote: MIKE WOLF IS MY NEW HERO! Remember, even Al Capone gave Christmas presents to the poor children in Chicago. Maybe this is the first sign that Mike Wolf has changed his spots. Time will tell.
TrainFreak409 wrote: MIKE WOLF IS MY NEW HERO!
MIKE WOLF IS MY NEW HERO!
Remember, even Al Capone gave Christmas presents to the poor children in Chicago. Maybe this is the first sign that Mike Wolf has changed his spots. Time will tell.
This is true...But I have always been a supporter of MTH and Mike Wolf. He's a nice guy in person, even if his business tactics are unorthodox. I think Mike is doing a great thing for the hobby.
Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern
The real question here is are all of those model railroad manufacturers going to lower their prices on their UP equipment? This could be where thereal consipiracy comes into play.
Dang! Now I gotta go and change my signature!! I guess UP doesn't stand for Utterly Pathetic any more!
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
TrainFreak409 wrote: ericboone wrote: TrainFreak409 wrote: MIKE WOLF IS MY NEW HERO! Remember, even Al Capone gave Christmas presents to the poor children in Chicago. Maybe this is the first sign that Mike Wolf has changed his spots. Time will tell. This is true...But I have always been a supporter of MTH and Mike Wolf. He's a nice guy in person, even if his business tactics are unorthodox. I think Mike is doing a great thing for the hobby.
He is a nice guy. I met him too. As far as being good for the hobby, yes, this was a huge dragon slain!
However, he will still do patent battles with the other model manufacturers, driving up our costs further with more litigation fees and subsequent penalties.
I still believe that the only reason he put out his HO scale Pacific, was to lock out other companies from using speed control and synchronized smoke, and integrating similar features into their DCC/sound packages. He did this in O scale years ago.
HO scale has only seen the beginning of the over litigious environment that has plagued O scale/gauge, and drove those prices out of the reach of the working man for the good stuff!
Still, kudos for this victory!
Carmine, CEO, CE, and Chief Bottle Washer - the Pacific Belt RR, in HO scale
Founded by myself, 1975!
How are we going to get new recruits, when we ourselves are being priced out of the hobby!! Take your trains out of the box and play with them! That's why they were made!
phatkat64 wrote: TrainFreak409 wrote: This is true...But I have always been a supporter of MTH and Mike Wolf. He's a nice guy in person, even if his business tactics are unorthodox. I think Mike is doing a great thing for the hobby. He is a nice guy. I met him too. As far as being good for the hobby, yes, this was a huge dragon slain! However, he will still do patent battles with the other model manufacturers, driving up our costs further with more litigation fees and subsequent penalties. I still believe that the only reason he put out his HO scale Pacific, was to lock out other companies from using speed control and synchronized smoke, and integrating similar features into their DCC/sound packages. He did this in O scale years ago. HO scale has only seen the beginning of the over litigious environment that has plagued O scale/gauge, and drove those prices out of the reach of the working man for the good stuff! Still, kudos for this victory!
TrainFreak409 wrote: This is true...But I have always been a supporter of MTH and Mike Wolf. He's a nice guy in person, even if his business tactics are unorthodox. I think Mike is doing a great thing for the hobby.
I can understand why he would battle manufacturers for patent infringement. As horrible as it is...It's business...UP did have a right to license their logo, but it just seemed stupid after letting railroads use it for all these years without charge; it's not like a poor UP model will hang a grey cloud over Union Pacific as a railroad. But it was business there too. MTH has the right to the way it uses its technologies.
-On a personal note; I think the lawsuits and all are stupid...But I'm not a businessman, either. -
As far as the HO scale thing goes...Lionel has had multiple shots at HO scale over the years...Do you think MTH would just sit there and watch their greatest competitor try to tap into a new market without them? And why would MTH put anything different than ProtoSounds in their HO scale models, when ProtoSounds 3.0 is an awesome system?
But there are always ways around patents...And in the case of MTH's speed control and smoke...If you don't use a reader to determine how fast the black and white stripes on the motor's flywheel is spinning...You dont' infringe their patents.
Maybe it's just me, but something just doesn't smell right.
I admit I don't know any of the details, but this smells of spin doctoring. Like maybe UP was looking for a way out of the bad PR and Mike gets the benefit of being in the right place at the right time.
Anyone else picking up that scent?
We are talking about the guy that refused to work with the NMRA on DCC and wants nothing to do with any other manufacturer.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote:Anyone else picking up that scent?
SpaceMouse wrote: Maybe it's just me, but something just doesn't smell right. I admit I don't know any of the details, but this smells of spin doctoring. Like maybe UP was looking for a way out of the bad PR and Mike gets the benefit of being in the right place at the right time. Anyone else picking up that scent? We are talking about the guy that refused to work with the NMRA on DCC and wants nothing to do with any other manufacturer.
That's a very interesting point to ponder! UP's brass has been trying to clean up their company's image for several months now. (this past summer there was a bit of fanfare with a UP/ Boys Scouts of America passenger special).
Even if this positive news can be partially or wholly contributed to Mr. Wolf, he has a very long way to go in patching up the holes he helped rip into the HO and N scale arenas that shook up the Command Control market and helped foster the Anti-MTH attitudes from modelers around the globe.
Recently the MTH K4 hit the market. Yet, so much of that "hoopla" has, surprisingly, died down. MTH's advertisement "bash" against BLI probably didn't help sales very much. Mr. Wolf likely knows by now that the advertisement's controversial wording was an incredibly dumb move that helped to turn off more potential HO customers.
Trainfreak, Spacemouse
you both make very good points but isn't it funny how life is? If Walthers or Atlas had bashed BLI in an advertisement, we probably wouldn't have even blinked and likely have chuckled about it. But when you have earned a bad reputation, let's face it.....whenever you burp everyone pays attention to it, they document how loud it is, and how long it lasts. That's life!
( A financially "well off" HO Pennsy modeler at my club has vowed never to buy any MTH products......This is a guy who buys 3 or 4 expensive HO locos at a time! The mere mention of Wolf or MTH at my club still stirs up frowns and snickers. )
IMHO, to be fair to the man, Mike Wolf could truly become a hero to many more modelers in the HO and N scale worlds if he would publicly announce a willingness to establish a positive working relationship with the NMRA. This would have helped him in the very beginning. He should try this very soon while he has some positive publicity on his side.
If Mr. Wolf decides to take this route, he should post a letter in magazines like MRR and RMC and state the intention with sincerety.......minus any fanfare or arrogant "we have the best technology" overtones. Afterwards his actions would speak out for themselves.
Antonio,If Walthers or Atlas bashed BLI, I think the reaction would be the same to MTH's heavy handed approach. Why? Because up until MTH did it to BLI, when was the last time you ever saw negative advertising in the hobby?
In HO scale, cooperation has been much more embraced than the oft-times adversarial O scale market. Led by example by the NMRA and the old-timers like Irv Athearn & the MDC/Roundhouse owner (whose name escapes me). Athearn and MDC tried to stay off each other's toes as much as possible by not releasing the same exact models, which is why it made sense to merge the companies. Can you imagine MTH and Lionel cooperating like that? I can't.
If Athearn were to release an anti-P2K ad in MR, I would be shocked and just as annoyed with them as I am with MTH for their advertising approach.
Paul A. Cutler III*************Weather Or No Go New Haven*************
Paul,
I have MRR issues dating back to 1979. I must admit that I can't recall seeing manufacturers slamming each other in those issues ( except for a few light jabs from MRC against the other powerpack manufacturers.)
I agree with you that competition over the years has been cordial in our scales. However, my point was simply that MTH had already soured so many of us with its harsh reputation. So the reaction was much, much hotter than it would have been if, let's say, Athearn had taken that same heavy handed shot at Life Like's P2K line. Yes, we would have been upset, many of us would have likely chewed out Athearn with e-mails and letters. But Athearn would have likely issued an apology for that action. Most of us would have forgiven Athearn and forgotten about it in the months that followed.
What an ideal situation it would have been had MTH & Lionel cooperated as you mention. Of course, in reading the history, Mike Wolf's roots were in Lionel. The battles that ensued seemed to resemble a soap opera story line of a step son battling with the "well known" family he left in his younger years. Then, throw in the battles with his former family's competitors as well. Even as his previous family members leave or grow old, the business battles continue and become a normal way of life by the time he's 30. He's determined that he would challenge any scenario that he perceives as a threat to his business and does not hesistate to be ruthless.
Unfortunately he's too ignorant, arrogant, or oblivious to the fact that some of his actions are on the "OVERKILL" side. As a result this costs him quite a bit as far as potential customers in the new market that he's trying to enter. Though many of his products feature quality construction, his reputation has still suffered a great deal.
I know................. it's simplistic but it seems to be the case here.
This topic has turned from comments on the UP/MRI licensing contract negotiated by MTH to an exercise in pillorying MTH for earlier offenses. I'm not trying to defend MTH but I think we ought to be keeping an open mind. Mine is completely open since, having no practical use for any MTH product, I probably skipped over the nasty ad you folks are talking about and I have only been slightly aware of MTH's other business practices. As I indicated in an earlier post, I think we all owe Mike Wolf a "Thank You" for negotiating this licensing contract regardless of what else he might have done. I kind of doubt that other MRR manufacturers are going to say "No, we don't like Mike Wolf so we'll insist on paying UP 3% of our gross" and I'm sure that none of you are going to insist on paying more for UP-lettered models..
On the other hand, does anyone else remember when UPS refused to permit models of its custom built, distinctively shaped delivery trucks to be decorated as UPS delivery trucks? They could be painted brown but the manufacturer could not letter them for UPS or include UPS decals in the package. That must have been 10 years ago and UPS models may now be "legal" but I still avoid doing business with UPS whenever I can. My point here -- for UP, MTH, UPS, and anyone else contemplating similar agressive protection of their copyrights -- is that you really ought to consider the negative publicity you're going to generate. It takes an awfully long time as a corporate "good citizen" to overcome a moment's bad publicity.
cefinkjr wrote: ...As I indicated in an earlier post, I think we all owe Mike Wolf a "Thank You" for negotiating this licensing contract regardless of what else he might have done.... Chuck
...As I indicated in an earlier post, I think we all owe Mike Wolf a "Thank You" for negotiating this licensing contract regardless of what else he might have done.... Chuck
It would appear that he was not so much championing the rest of us, but doing what he had been known to do consistently and aggressively....serve his-self. He lowers prices, the rest of us can buy maybe a few more of whatever.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
selector wrote: cefinkjr wrote: ...As I indicated in an earlier post, I think we all owe Mike Wolf a "Thank You" for negotiating this licensing contract regardless of what else he might have done.... Chuck It would appear that he was not so much championing the rest of us, but doing what he had been known to do consistently and aggressively....serve his-self. He lowers prices, the rest of us can buy maybe a few more of whatever. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
Selector,
You hit a homerun with that statement.
But consider that while this action benefited him, he's not stupid. He had to realize that this would benefit the entire model/toy train industry and as a big side benefit make him the so called "hero". Those of you who insist that we should thank Mike ........ok,
"Good going Mr. Wolf "...........
So now what would you like next? THE SAME OLD reputations haven't gone anywhere, have they?
As I stated earlier, he could extend an olive branch to HO and N modelers by deciding to take that "first step" and hook-up with the NMRA. Another step that he can easily take, and I think he likely will, would be to rephrase the wording in his advertisements. Some have stated on other threads that the reactions to the advertisements were "petty". But as Paul3 stated, that style of advertising is not typically seen in our hobby.
The past lawsuits and the advertisement flame fest helped further deteriorate MTH's image with many of us. As mentioned above, this thread is about the licensing victory but whether we like it or not MTH has had a PR/Image problem and that in itself will continue to pop up on MTH related topics until we see the changes. That's reality. Positive changes are very possible. The ball is in Mike's court and has been for a while.
I'm glad for this situation but I hope the bigger issue with MTH is resolved as well in the future so that MTH bashing becomes a thing of the past. Well, nuff said from me unless you guys ask me something. I'm too busy looking forward to getting Lok Sound systems installed in my HO diesels. 10-4, friends
My
Space mouse it does smell a bit. I just paid a ton of money to get some units with updated to Back EMF thanks to the ????? from MTH. This had effected us for longer than the UP problem. It is a GLOBAL problem in the hobby not just the few who model UP. Well one tree has been cut but the balance of the trees are still hiding the forest from view.
An Atta boy for this is OK but remember that all tthe Atta-boys get wiped out by one Ah-S___T.