A question of ethics

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly
Of course the LHS's that let you take the engine out of the box and test run it before purchasing are the smart ones. Everyone knows pretty much the condition of the product when it leaves the shop door. Perhaps another advantage of maybe paying more from a LHS.

My LHS owner does just that. Before she even starts to ring up the sale, she will carefully unseal and unpack the locomotive, place it on test tracks (one in HO and one in N) and tests it forward and reverse right there in front of you. Once tested, she carefully repacks it. Only then is a sale made.

That, and the fact that she is more than ready to offer advice and suggestions regarding trains and layout construction. For that alone, I plan to give her most of my business once I begin building my layout.

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan
It seems computer stores have wised up. I don't play video games, but I've seen signs to the effect of: no software is taken back if it's been opened.

That's a slightly different issue. There are far too many people, esp. youngsters in this age of "If I can download it for free, who cares about copyright", who would buy a game (or music too), "rip" a copy of it on their CD-R writer or to MP3, then return it. Those policies are generally phrased something along the lines of, "Returns only allowed in exchange for identical items" to allow someone to exchange an actually bad item for the exact same thing.

Brian Pickering

[Anonymous]

I remember watching Judge Wapner on People's Court as a kid.

If something was broken, damaged, etc., the store legally had to take it back.

Where it obviously gets wierd is where people break stuff before returning it. I guess this is what small claims court is for.

[davekelly]

Tim,

Good point. If something is purchased and is defective you should be able to return it and get 100 percent of your money back. I'm sure nearly every retailer would agree with you - it makes good business sense from his point of view. I dare say, however, there are folks that will purchase something, break it and then return it saying it was broke when the box was opened. This puts the retailer into a tough situation. Once again the few ruin everything for the rest of us. I once knew a man who ran a small business manufacturing and selling hunting tree stands (a devise made up of metal structural shapes used to sit in a tree and hunt from). He told me that it was pretty standard to have a stand returned bent with the purchaser saying it was bent when it was removed from the box. In order to maintain customer satisfaction and loyalty he would always gladly return the purchase price - even when there were tire marks on the bent part where the purchaser ran over the thing with his truck! Doing that would drive me crazy which is probably why I'm not in retail.

Of course the LHS's that let you take the engine out of the box and test run it before purchasing are the smart ones. Everyone knows pretty much the condition of the product when it leaves the shop door. Perhaps another advantage of maybe paying more from a LHS.

[GMTRacing]

Just to chime in. The point is that the LHS is probably less able to absorb the loss for a return and as a small business owner, I would think charging back the restock fee is a reasonable request. They will be out shipping and handling both ways, plus the time and effort for the order. As far as posting all the rules and exceptions is concerned, I'd be afraid that the all paperwork would obscure the cool stuff in the display cases. [:D]
J.R.

[Anonymous]

My view is: If my LHS, or any vendor, is out of pocket for my change of mind I should stand the cost. If they aren't, it is only good customer service not to ask for a restocking fee.

Randy

[rrinker]

What do you mean, everythign else uses Xpressnet? There's as much if not more 3rd party support for Loconet as there is for Xpressnet. Or do you mean, you have a Zephyr AND a Lenz system so all your throttles and stuff are Xpressnet?

--Randy

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

P.S. - why did you go with the Zephyr? I'm eyeing the Prodigy Advance as well...

I know nothing about the Prodigy, but one of the systems I do have is a Zephyr. I like the push button panel and display. Very easy to plug in and use. I think I've only opened the manual book once. I like the throttle on the base unit. I like that I can expand with either bus throttles or jump throttles. I don't like that it uses LocoNet and everyone else uses XpressNet. And I keep forgetting it has a switch that will cut power to the track.

[chateauricher]

What if the item is delivered broken or missing parts ?

I don't expect to pay anything for something that is totally unusable -- ie: not delivered in the promised usable condition. When you buy something, you and the merchant enter into a contract. You pay him the agreed-upon price, and he promises to provide you with the good(s) in usuable condition. If he fails to do so, or if the good(s) fail to live up to their promised potential, he should refund your money 100% or provide a suitable substitute.

[jrbernier]

Restocking fees are becoming pretty much standard for many stores. A few years ago, big stores like Walmart/Sears/Target would not even ask for a receipt. My take on it is if you buy something off the store shelf, and return it(unopened) - you should be refunded in kind(check/cash/credit card). A special order like that DC system that the LHS did not normally stock, would warrent a 'restocking fee'. I think it would be nice if the LHS would offer either the 15% 'restocking fee', or a 'store credit' at full value. That way the buyer can us it without taking the 'hit' for restocking, and the LHS get another sure sale!

Jim Bernier

[davekelly]

Selector,

That story really makes one stop and think.

[selector]

CARRfan, what a collosal waste of time for those girls!

Dave K., your last post places well into light the fact that Walmart must have an iron grip on its suppliers and their prices in order to pay staff to deal with these returns that are no longer resaleable., and still make money on what people actually keep.

I am always amazed, even though I am a psycholgist, how many people will resort to crime or unethical behaviour in order to acquire a convenience. I worked with a fellow who inadvertently left his golf clubs propped against his tire well at a city dump while he emptied his trunk...actually, his daughter accompanied him (this gets worse as I think about it), and SHE left them there. They drove away, only to discover the error later. What did he do? He scratched around the paint near the trunk lock of his rather new Olds 88, and then filed a claim on his insurance saying he'd been robbed.

"See, Suzy, it's so easy! Now run along and remember this lesson in morality."

[Anonymous]

I had a friend in college (a girl) who would shop on the weekends with her girlfriends. They'd come back to the dorms, look over everything, decide what they really wanted to keep, and take the rest back the next day. At least in that scenario, the items weren't actually used.

And that was 10 years ago. These days it's so easy to take stuff back, it's just out of control.

It seems computer stores have wised up. I don't play video games, but I've seen signs to the effect of: no software is taken back if it's been opened.

[IRONROOSTER]

My favorite abuser was a nationally known politician whose children were photographed in cute outfits at Christmas time for a magazine article. The next day they were returned - I know of this because my grandmother worked at the department store.
Enjoy
Paul

[dwRavenstar]

When you ordered the item and changed your mind the LHS was placed in the same position; having to tell their supplier that they were returning or cancelling an order for an item.

I don't think I'd expect them to eat that cost, it is my decision that created the situation.

You're seeing it right and my hat is tipped to you (Bruce).

These folks who buy an item, use it and then return it are basically shoplifting in plain sight. Like Dad always says "treat people with due respect". These clowns make that a snap as they are due none at all.

Dave (dwRavenstar)

[Anonymous]

If I buy something based on my knowledge and it doesn't do the job I keep it as it's my mistake, If I buy something that the clerk told me would work and it doesn't I might take it back. Depends on the cost - $10.00 is usually the break point, under, it gets thrown in the garage, over and it goes back the next time I'm in that store.

My B-I-L bought a scale from Wall-Mart. When they came over to visit about four months later his wife weighed on our digital scale and liked being able to read her weight. Lon immdetialy took his scale back and said his wife didn't like it and got one of the digital scales. I'm sorry but I was appaled. He bought the scale and should have kept it, but he didn't see it that way. It was his mistake not the stores or the manufactores, but it was easy for him to pass the buck.

I'm glad that the big stores are keeping track of returns and hope that they compile their records with the other stores so people like Lon can't take something back without a penality.

You and I pay for these problems, as stated above bad behavior is rewarded.

Bob

[retsignalmtr]

i had a guy working with me that abused sears return policy which is why you can't blame the store owner about his restocking fee. this guy would buy a suit and coat to go to a wedding or party and the next day he would return it ,unlaundered and get his full refund. he did the same with tools. buy the tool, use it, then return it for a full refund.

[davekelly]

Virginian,

Very good point. I remember reading somewhere (they say short term memory is the first to go) that some retailers are starting to track returns in order to implement a more fluid return policy. Seems that many retailers are getting tired of folks buying clothes, wearing them to that big party and then returning them. It will be interesting to see how this all works out.

Another good point you bring out is the question of who pays the costs of these returns. Looking at the customer service desk at Walmart the other day it was very clear to me that the vast majority of the items returned could not be sold as the boxes were destroyed, paperwork wadded up and I'm sure some damage (you know - break the thing and then return it saying it was broke when I purchased it).

The argument in favor of a restocking charge seems obvious - unfortunately there will be some folks hurt by it - those that are making honest returns (ie: item never used and returned in original condition, return of gitts in original condition etc). Oh well - just like in school - the actions of some will always screw up things for everyone.

[Virginian]

If my LHS ordered something for me and I changed my mind, I would gladly pay a restocking fee, or even buy it and then sell it on eBay, rather than see him take a hit, but he wouldn't do it the only time it happened. He said "Oh it's okay, I'll sell it, no problem." And gladly he did, quickly.
Dealing with a small guy versus a big chain is apples and oranges to me.
Sears started that "no questions" return policy, and I think those of who think first pay the bill for all the flighty types who buy and exchange ad infinitum these days. I wouldn't mind seeing every retailer institute a restocking charge. But, society seems bent on rewarding bad behavior. That's probably why we see more and more of it.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: " ...I would need to pay an additional 10% restocking charge, even though it has not yet arrived. Is this the way you would handle it if you were the owner?

NO. But I'm not the owner.

Every store has a 'Return' policy - even if it is "no return's". You didn't ask. If the orig. item had been shipped, most will charge you just their 'shipping & handling. That might be about 10% too.

Welcome to the world of Mail Order.

[davekelly]

I agree with all of the above. I would note, however, that if a business has a restocking fee - whether it be for all returns or just for special orders - that a sign or something should be posted or noted on the receipt or something. Doing this would reduce the hard feelings that may arise later.

In any event - Bruce glad you have a dealer that is willing to special order stuff. The fact that you don't mind paying the restocking fee makes me think he must be an all-right guy, which is way cool. Also - good luck on the DCC trail!!

[Anonymous]

I don't blame best buy for having a restocking fee.

I know somebody who (no joke) took back a TV and used furniture to a Costco 3 years after buying it there and got 100% refund. I am not kidding.

When you shop somewhere without restocking fees, you're helping to pay for people who do this stuff.

This is clearly an extreme example, but it's no wonder places have restocking fees.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan

This is a fascinating topic to me. Why? Because we're all so used to the Home Depot / Wall Mart / etc. attitude of bringing things back, no questions asked.

These huge places make that type of thing seem standard, so when a smaller business doesn't follow suit, we get irritated.

Best Buy has a 15% re-stocking fee. It is one of the reason I won't buy from them.

QUOTE: [i]

I am VERY sight challenged and I thought that the Prodigy had a larger display. That's it. Now, I have discovered the free download to use my computer to program CV's. Unfortunately, the Prodigy systems are not included in the program.

It is not so much that the Decoder Pro does not support the Prodigy Advance by omission, it is that the PA does not have the interface to allow computer connection and so the Decoder Pro application can not support it.

[Blind Bruce]

I am VERY sight challenged and I thought that the Prodigy had a larger display. That's it. Now, I have discovered the free download to use my computer to program CV's. Unfortunately, the Prodigy systems are not included in the program.
BB

[Anonymous]

P.S. - why did you go with the Zephyr? I'm eyeing the Prodigy Advance as well...

[Anonymous]

This is a fascinating topic to me. Why? Because we're all so used to the Home Depot / Wall Mart / etc. attitude of bringing things back, no questions asked.

These huge places make that type of thing seem standard, so when a smaller business doesn't follow suit, we get irritated.

It's not a question of ethics at all, in my opinion. It's just the way that person is doing business, which is probably totally legal.

As a small business owner, in my opinion, that guy needs to somehow be compensated for the time, etc. it took for the transaction that happened, then didn't happen.

Not pointing any fingers here, just sticking up for the guy.

[Blind Bruce]

Thanks fellas. In my heart, I feel the same way. I just wanted another opinion. Thanks again,
BB

[jfugate]

Restocking fee is one of those things like shipping and handling ... it covers many things depending on how it is defined.

One way a restocking fee is defined is as a penalty for changing your mind part way into an order. The hobby shop owner may not stock the item normally, but has now ordered it based on your request. Since you have changed your mind, you have put him in a position of possibly having an item that will sit on his shelf for months before it sells.

Or sending it back and paying a restocking fee to the distributor.

This does fit within the definition of what a restocking fee is to cover -- ordering something, then changing your mind and leaving the store owner holding the bag.

Obviously, the owner could elect to waive the fee if he wants to be a "nice guy", but it's not unethical to charge it in this situation.

[howmus]

Unfortunately the situation may stem from the fact the LHS will have to pay the restocking charge to send it back. It is unreasonable to have the LHS pay the charge when they are good enough to let you cancel the order and order another system instead. I have run into this in the music business, If I cancel an order with a supplier, I expect that I will have to pay for it...... [:(]