NMRA Membership - wow!

[Anonymous]

I've belonged to the NMRA since 1983 or so. When membership dues went up several years ago I changed mine to one that does not receive the newsletter, now called "Scale Rails" as it was cheaper. I'm not very gung-ho on the NMRA, but believe it does serve a purpose. Where I live in eastern Canada I get very little by being a member, but keep on more or less out of momentum.

I did get a copy of Scale Rails yesterday, because there was an election ballot in it that all members must get. I was quite shocked to read the "membership thermometer" on page 52 - the NMRA membership as of December 2004 is down to 19,365 modelers! When I was getting the newsletter a few years ago I can recall the membership hovering around 25,000, sometimes more, sometimes less. That was 5,000 members ago!

Sure doesn't sound all that good for the NMRA. If it keeps on at this rate it will be down to nothing in about 8-10 years.

No other point to this post, just wanted to share my dismay at the membership decline in the NMRA.

Bob Boudreau

[CNJ831]

Yes, Bob, the figures are both interesting and troubling with regard to NMRA's future. The biggest drop, of course, occurred a couple of years ago when the organization raised its dues dramatically. A loss of 4,000 members (I was one of them because of this dues debacle) seemed shocking to me, too, until I was told under good authority that they had anticipated a 7,000 member drop in response to the dues hike! Thus, they seem to feel that things aren't nearly as bad as expected!

From my nowadays outsider's perspective, it would seem their recent re-organization and change dues structure hasn't done a lot of good for many of the Regions either. Here in the Northeastern Region there hasn't been a newsletter published in six months and more than a few of the local Divisions are on the brink of failure or are already history.

Obviously, if there is any significant further decline in membership numbers, the viability and any claimed influence NMRA says it has in the hobby will come to an end. As it is, they don't even represent 10% of all those in the hobby. This makes me wonder if perhaps it isn't time for some entirely new to be created?

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

Is it possible the rise in popularity of online RR forums may have contributed to the decline? When one lives in an area far from a chapter's activities, it's easier to find a sense of "commmunity" with a group online than through a monthly newsletter.

Just a thought, but perhaps if the NMRA had taken the early lead in creating an online model forum rather than leaving the field open to the commercial companies, their membership may have grown. Their website, www.nmra.org is a wealth of information, but I don't get a feeling of "community" there.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

Members die.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

Members die.

Members die in organizations that are growing. It would seem the answer lies in recruiting new members, not stopping the aging process.

Wayne

[red p]

of all the memberships i have the NMRA cost the most.
Do you think that would have anything to do with it?

[cmrproducts]

Well, Division 11 of the MCR region is doing very well and we are having our 5th Jamboree on April 2, 2005. Plans are being formed to do a HO car and our meetings are very well attended (usually 20 to 30 - which is about 66% of our membership). The real reason why there seems be no direction has to do a lot with the on line forums. This is where I spend most of my time learning from others experiences and using the ideas to build my railroad.

With our Div 11 meetings, most of our members have operating railroads and the word here is OPERATING (no roundy-round) and the membership come out to see what has been done and do operations. And the layouts range in age from over 15 years old to ones just getting started!

It is the local Divisions that make the NMRA not the National. If everyone could grasp this concept then the NMRA would be one of the biggest MRR organizations. But then most modelers are lone wolves and do not want to get involved! It is a loss both for the group and to the individual.

I was in the same boat way back in 1979 and thought is this all there is! Then I joined a Club and they then involved me in the NMRA. We then decided to start our own local Division as we did not want to travel over 80 miles to a Division meeting in Pittsburgh. The rest is history. We still hold the record in the Mid Central Region for having the largest percentage of membership increase in a year, ever 100% (but that was easy back in the early years with just over 10 members).

What I am trying to get at here is you, the individual, makes the NMRA not the NMRA doing things for you! If you get into the Divisions then the rest just comes naturally.

BOB H Clarion, PA

[dehusman]

The cost is expensive, the bureaucracy is Byzantine and ineffectual. It hasn't clearly articulated why one should be a member. I think the SIG's have eclipsed the parent organization as more successfull. The LDSIG Yahoo group has 3000+ members and the OPSIG has 2000+. Those two SIG's have online membership of about 1/4 the NMRA. Maybe the NMRA needs to see what they are doing and emulate them. The problem I see is that for whatever reason the parent NMRA seems to have caused the SIG's to distance themselves to a certain extent and I don't think the NMRA will ever get them back in the fold. But clearly the mission of the SIG's is more effective than the NMRA overall.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

..... This makes me wonder if perhaps it isn't time for some entirely new (entity)
to be created?
CNJ831

I think it would be a terible loss of a resource if we couldn't have access to the Kalmbach Memorial Library. If they provided on-line access to their reference materials, I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable fee. However, I'm sure that would be a huge undertaking requiring an incredible amount of man hours.

I've been a member since 3/6/93. I too droped the rag when dues went up. I also pay region dues although I haven't gone to meetings for several years. I just want to support the group so that they'll still be there when I have time for the meetings. Also my division will be helping to host the 2007 NMRA convention in Detroit.

[Anonymous]

I stopped paying.......... TOO much!!!!

[AntonioFP45]

Uh, How much are the dues??

It would be a trajedy if we lost the NMRA. We can't forget that they help set most of the standards that we now enjoy as a result!

If we can remember, one of the sticking points that infuriated many of us O, HO, and N scale modelers in the MTH vs. QSI lawsuit was MTH's refusal to cooperate with the NMRA in conforming to the command control standards for HO. That speaks highly of the regard the NMRA has been held at, inspite of the problems it's experiencing just like any other organization.

I hope they do get their act together. I will check out their site as I'm already considering to join. We shoud also encourage our Newbies to join as well. Even if a local chapter isn't nearby, news of upcoming events, voting, and info are also valuable.

[Blind Bruce]

I'm just a newbie, butt.... Where would DCC be if it weren't for the NMRA? The standards created reduce the chaos of many systems and provide us, the modeller, with a less expensive product with interchangeable parts. That ladiers and gentlemen, leads to competition which than controls prices. The dues required to do these things is a small price to pay.
Just my $.03 (Canadian .02)
Bruce in the Peg

[Big_Boy_4005]

One of the dues problems may be related to the fact that back in the early days of the organization, life memberships were fairly inexpensive. When I first joined in 1974 it was $100. I wish I had excersized that option. The dues increase had to be at least in part to compensate for all of the non paying lifers. I know a few.

Another huge chunk of it has to be for the publication. Personally I never minded the old black and white, and think it's a losing battle to have gone to the slick color format. It seems that someone along the way thought they needed to be more like the professional magazines.

I didn't join for the publication, I joined for the conventions, and other activities, and to support the standardization effort. I've definately had my share of fun over the last 30 years, even though I haven't always been active.

[mcouvillion]

I've looked at joining the NMRA several times over about 20 years and never could justify the dues for what I would receive. Even their recent ad in Model Railroader does not present a convincing argument for membership. I know they are important to the hobby, but I don't think my contribution should be charity. I guess I'm just not a "joiner", as I don't care to get into a formal organization with rules, regulations, regular dues, and meetings. Most of my railroading friends are the same exact way. There is one guy who pushes for rules, dues, etc., and the rest of us roll our eyes. We reluctantly come up with standards after seeing the diversity of what constitutes "good enough" and realize most aren't close, but that is usually a last resort. I guess the NMRA and like organizations are for the "go-getters" who have to have everything spelled out in detail, and the rest of us are able to pick and choose what we need for our level of comfort. I don't know what the right answer is regarding the NMRA. I'll look again at membership in the near future.

Mark C.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I must say, that the standards we all enjoy today, didn't happen by magic. They are the results of a few hard working individuals who gave their time, over the last 70 years, to better our hobby. So even if you take the "what's in it for me?" position regarding membership, deep down the answer is A LOT. This organization writes the rules that the manufacturers play by when designing trains. Could you imagine the chaos without those standards?

[IRONROOSTER]

I agree that the standards are important. It is probably the main reason I have stayed a member as the dues have gone up. I have been to a couple of division meets and hope to get to some more in the future and I also enjoy the Heritage and Living Legends cars. The Bulletin's heyday was under Whit Towers. It was different from the commercial press and offered a lot of features not otherwise found. The current Scale Rails is not the same - I read it every month, but it's not my favorite. Also, I think the NMRA site on the WEB does a real service to the model railroading community.
Enjoy
Paul
NMRA 024602

[mecovey]

I started to write this several days ago but didn't want to just write something negative without any useful purpose. After seeing this thread it's somewhat comforting to find I'm not alone in the way I view the NMRA.

I have belonged twice - once so that I could go to the 1974 convention in Chicago and again in 1985 to attend the Milwaukee convention. I allowed my membership to lapse both times... the first time because of interminable childish arguments about "biffies" and the second time because there didn't seem to be much value.

The NMRA is a great organization that has and continues to be a valuable resource to the hobby particulary in the area of standards -I'm glad my trains will run on somebody else's track and I can take my DCC throttle to another layout and the hardware still works. Many thanks to the volunteers who work long hours to provide the standards that make this possible. I am not trying to ba***he NMRA.

I asked my wife if she would be interested in going to the convention this year and since she was amenable, I looked at the website to see what it would cost. Wow talk about sticker shock!

After I join the organization, pay the entry fee, pay my wife's entry fee, sign up and pay for layout tours (the real reason I want to go), pay for non rail activities, pay for the "rubber chicken" banquet for the two of us, pay for hotel for 5 nights, food for 5 or 6 days, gas from Illinois to Cincinnati and any incidentals from the company store I figure I can stay home and buy a 42" plazma TV for the same money and look at railroad tapes.

It appears to me the "good 'ol boys" who run the NMRA have priced themselves out of the convention market as well as the organization itself. Done correctly, these things ought to pull thousands of people many of whom are new... but not at these prices. I know the trade show attracts a lot of the "great unwashed" but how about finding a way to get them involved in the clinics and tours. The inspiration from going to some of the best layouts in the country couldn't help but spur newbies (and some of us oldies) to get involved in building a railroad.

[Anonymous]

I support the NMRA and probably always will.

It seems that the national leadership should get its act toghether. There is a perception among members out there that these guys are getting a lot of perks at the general memberships' expense. I am not stating this as a fact and I am not in a position to know what the facts are, but the perception is commonly held among the NMRA guys I know. I think that they need to do something about this perception and perhaps restructure the rates and budget to reflect a more frugal approach.

I think the NMRA has done an enormous amount for the hobby and I find that most of the members I meet are great guys. I hosted a layout on the San Jose 2000 National Convention and it was an experience I will never forget. Busloads of trainnuts coming to my house to see what I had done. How cool is that:? I had a great time and had a blast meeting members and talking trains. I also met most of the train guys I know through the NMRA.

I hope that they can turn things around.

[FRITSCHSR]

Just look at this way, cost of membership = 2 RTR cars. I think I can do without
2 cars a year if it will help keep the NMRA alive and well to help keep all the
standards for all current and any future technological advances the hobby may
take. Just my 2 pennies worth.

[WickhamMan]

I'm not sure I buy the "standards" argument as a benefit for NMRA's existence. There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of technical fields that don't have a standardizing body. Computers and software development tools spring to mind. These are incredibly fast moving industries (compared to model rr) and they have no real standardizing body. The winning technology sets the standard and others follow. Without NMRA, I think we would likely see the same result. The "meets NMRA standards" tag on a product is mostly marketing. There would still be standards but the market would set them (as they already likely do).

My $.02

[gvdobler]

What service do they provide to the membership?

I belong to the AOPA (Aircraft Owner's & Pilots Assc) They provide legal service, airfield protection from closing, medical advice and help for pilots and a host of other things. All for about a $100 a year.

I also belong to the AMA (Aircraft Modelers Assc. They provide insurance for each member against liability (models are going 200 plus real mph and weigh up to 50 lbs) and flying site protection. Everyone wants to shut us down. They provide a long list of services and a Nationals contest annually, all for about $100 a year.

Both organizations are in Congress and the FAA constantly to protect members rights and see that no one takes away our right to fly.

These are tangible things worth money. Perhaps NMRA could look at ways to provide something more for members in exchange for the dues.

Jon - Las Vegas

[chutton01]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gvdobler

I also belong to the AMA (Aircraft Modelers Assc. They provide insurance for each member against liability (models are going 200 plus real mph and weigh up to 50 lbs) and flying site protection. Everyone wants to shut us down.

Who wants to shut you down? Model Airplanes are a very interesting hobby (not my focus, but I enjoyed heading down to the Aerodrome at Cedar Creek Park in Nassau to see these (very large) babies fly.

Back to the NMRA - I have always wondered what they offered to their members, and right now it seems the National offers very little. The governing structure always seemed a bit vague and chaotic to me, although I'm sure it could be followed if need by.
Anyway, people keep talking about lone wolf modelers - but nowadays through the Web, are there truely any such animals about? I don't belong to a club or the NMRA, but I certain communicate and chat with like minded modelers on this and other boards. Hardly a loner, more of a loud-mouth... Kinda like the 'virtual' associations and communities that the Experts and Media Kings went on about in 1997, albiet some years later and in different form...

[cjcrescent]

WickhamMan;
The market will NOT set standards in model railroading. If you need proof, just look at the G-Gauge chaos. There are at least 7 scales, if not more, varying from 1:20.5, to 1:32 .5 all running on the same width track. The NMRA tried many years ago when G-gauge was in its infancy to get the manufacturers at ONE table to discuss standards/recommended practices, and was basically told by more than one maker to buzz off, because they were going to make their stuff how they wanted, no matter who was making what to what scale, period. So now you have LGB, Bachmann, making stuff to 1:20.5. Bachmann,(again), and another is also making it to 1:22.5, another well known maker is building to 1:29 and their biggest rival is building 1:32. There are others making stuff to all manner of inbetween scales between 1:32 and 1:20

Jon;
The NMRA already does alot of what you just mentioned. Thru another company, which I'm sure the AMA does as I don't think they provide their own insurance, the NMRA sponsers property insurance for your models, as well as liability insurance for individuals and clubs that are 100% NMRA clubs, all at very reasonable cost. The NMRA also provides estate counseling for after you're gone. Granted, the NMRA hasn't had to testify before Congress or the FAA, in our case the FRA, because someone may be in danger of being hit by one of our models while they were out on a picnic or playing on a public field. And if you don't want to take the magazine, the NMRA only costs $23.00 a year.

And as it was said in an earlier post;

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

It is the local Divisions that make the NMRA not the National. If everyone could grasp this concept then the NMRA would be one of the biggest MRR organizations...

What I am trying to get at here is you, the individual, makes the NMRA not the NMRA doing things for you! If you get into the Divisions then the rest just comes naturally.

BOB H Clarion, PA

I also thought, what can the NMRA do for me?? I started finding out by going to local meets and if I lived awhile in an area where there weren't many modelers or in an active division, I would start my own group. I live now in a division that has put on five regional conventions and hosted one National in the past twenty years, and I have had more fun helping on each and every one. I am also active with the contest and achievement programs in my region. I would have to say I have learned more techniques, how toos, and just downright good stuff working these two departments in the past twenty five years than in all of the how to articles in all the publications over the last forty.

But the people I've met from all over the world, including those who are now lifelong friends, via the NMRA, I know is the best part of "what can the NMRA do for me?".

[potlatcher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by WickhamMan

The winning technology sets the standard and others follow.

I agree with the argument that standards are useful, but not necessary. Someone mentioned the G gauge/scale debacle as a counter to this point of view, but most G manufacturers are targeting a different audience than scale model railroaders, so I'm not sure this example applies.

Instead I would offer the example of knuckle couplers. Kadee answered the weak NMRA standard "horn-hook" coupler with a better design and product. The market (us modelers) recognized the superiority of Kadee's products, and virtually nullifyied the NMRA standard. And, when Kadee's patent rights ran out, suddenly every manufacturer was either making them or applying the knock-offs to their models. Sure, there are sometimes minor incompatibilities between brands, but they can be dealt with pretty easily. My point is that the market can be just as strong a force for standards than the NMRA.

In the end, the manufacturers benefit just as much as the modelers from conforming to standards. If a manufacturer does not conform to recognized (either NMRA- or market-driven) standards, he is at a disadvantage for selling his product and will not make as much money. If the NMRA could share some of the costs for setting and maintaining standards with the MRIA, for instance, the cost of NMRA membership could be lowered to attract and retain more members.

I also feel that the NMRA is weak in terms of the benefits it provides members. I joined to attend the national convention in Seattle last summer. As with others on this topic, I was disappointed that so many of the activities carried an "extra fare" price tag. I did attend a few good clinics, but many of them were repeats of articles already published in Model Railroader. I don't feel I came away as a better modeler because of my convention attendance. I only had $300 available to spend on the convention - $155 for registration fees and membership, and the rest for two nights lodging (that's all I could afford so that's how long I stayed). In retrospect, I would have received greater benefits by driving to Seattle just for the National Train Show, paying the $10 entrance fee, then spending the other $290 on stuff for my layout.

I have also been thoroughly unimpressed with Scale Rails. So far there have been no articles teaching me things I haven't already learned from Model Railroader - several years before. If I do stay with the NMRA, there is no way I will waste my money on full NMRA membership that includes Scale Rails. Maybe instead of publishing Scale Rails, the NMRA could negotiate a members only discount on Model Railroader subscriptions. That would provide a real benefit!

Times are tight for most of us. With a wife and four growing children, I barely have the time, much less the money, to keep making progress on my layout. I need to get a big return on every hobby investment I make, otherwise I just can't afford it. I know it sounds mercenary to many, but I don't think the NMRA will survive much longer if it doesn't start giving its members more bang for their bucks.

I plan to attend part of a regional convention this summer to give the NMRA one more chance. If things don't seem any better on the local level, I'll just let my membership lapse.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Maybe instead of publishing Scale Rails, the NMRA could negotiate a members only discount on Model Railroader subscriptions. That would provide a real benefit!

As I noted in the first post and another person also mentioned, you can belong to the NMRA without getting the Scale Rails newsletter. When the dues when up several years ago, the full price for me was around $53.00 in Canadian dollars. Now without the more or less useless Scale Rails, it costs me around $32.00 Canadian. And I'm not missing anything!

Bob Boudreau

[selector]

I agree with locomotive3's terse reply above. But it bespeaks a more important artifact of evolution over time. As the demographics of society change, so will its mores, values, pursuits, vices, and so on. Gone are the days (at least, here in Canada) of the Elks, Masons, Shriners, etc. Just as in the churches, the members are all elderly.

Young people today don't like cohesive, organized memberships where someone is telling them what to do. They prefer a more nomadic, spontaneous association, something informal. Paying dues to an entitiy like the NMRA is almost anathema to them.

I beleive that therein lies your problem.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

QUOTE: Maybe instead of publishing Scale Rails, the NMRA could negotiate a members only discount on Model Railroader subscriptions. That would provide a real benefit!

As I noted in the first post and another person also mentioned, you can belong to the NMRA without getting the Scale Rails newsletter. When the dues when up several years ago, the full price for me was around $53.00 in Canadian dollars. Now without the more or less useless Scale Rails, it costs me around $32.00 Canadian. And I'm not missing anything!

Wow, have I ever been outta touch - I NEVER realized that Scale Rails was an 'option' that increased my annual dues, I figured it was simply the National newsletter and everybody got it[%-)]. My eyes have been opened - I'll stay in the NMRA but specify a no-frills membership when renewal time comes around.

[IRONROOSTER]

Without standards, we would have multiple variations of Marklin. Different voltages, different forward/reverse, etc. The manufacturers usually only agree that their product should be the standard. If one manufacturer gets big enough he buries his competition and they go out of business.

Look at micro computers before IBM, there were many variations and software on one would not run on another. IBM stepped into this void and imposed a "standard" by their size. All the others went under except Apple (and it's only alive because Bill Gates bought part of it) Fortunately, IBM failed to lock up their technology and the clone makers arose. Microsott didn't make that mistake and thus there is one PC operating system, Windows, since MicroSoft eliminated the competition. With no clones for compettion, they now use monopoly pricing for their Windows operating system.

In model railroading, I don't remember too many locos with decoders already installed before the NMRA DCC standards. Now there are decoder equipped locomotives and decoder ready locomotives that just require a plug in decoder (no wiring, isolating the motor from the frame, etc.). And they are coming down in cost.

I think that without the NMRA the hobby would be very limited and much more expensive.

Whether or not you join is up to you, but don't underestimate the importance of a standards organization. Congress created The National Institute of Standards and Technology because it's important and can't be left to the manufacturers.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

I have never joined this organization. I feel that it would be too "big" for my needs. So far the internet, ebay and local hobby stores has filled my hobby needs quite well.

Maybe someday when I am retired and everything paid off and just living out my days playing with trains I may get a membership.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjcrescent

WickhamMan;
The market will NOT set standards in model railroading. If you need proof, just look at the G-Gauge chaos. There are at least 7 scales, if not more, varying from 1:20.5, to 1:32 .5 all running on the same width track. The NMRA tried many years ago when G-gauge was in its infancy to get the manufacturers at ONE table to discuss standards/recommended practices, and was basically told by more than one maker to buzz off, because they were going to make their stuff how they wanted, no matter who was making what to what scale, period. So now you have LGB, Bachmann, making stuff to 1:20.5. Bachmann,(again), and another is also making it to 1:22.5, another well known maker is building to 1:29 and their biggest rival is building 1:32. There are others making stuff to all manner of inbetween scales between 1:32 and 1:20

FYI the NMRA didnt approach the large scale industry and say "We'd like to work with you and implement a set of standards for large scale modelers..." , Nope, instead they basiclly tried to impose their will and told the manufacturers "You WILL adopt these standards because we are the NMRA" to which they recieved the door slamming in their faces. Large Scale IS a bit of a mess, true, but we get around it, everything does run with everything else, even if a little tweaking is needed....but the way the NMRA went about it pissed off a lot of large scale modelers and manufacturers.