Kadee to take on UP

[BigJim]

The March 2005 issue of Model Railroad News reports that Kadee will be taking on the UP over it's licensing issues.

There stands Kadee like a stonewall...Rally 'round the Oregonians!

[Big_Boy_4005]

I take it this is about their N scale trains with UP and fallen flag markings. Go Kadee!!!! I was hoping that a brave soul would turn up.

[Virginian]

Go get 'em boys.
I remember years ago there was a class action suit by the independent box plants against the paper manufacturers. Becuase of the huge liability, everyone settled, except Union Camp. A loss could have ruined them, but they won.
Sometimes, guts is enough.

[Anonymous]

Let's let www.kadee.com know our support.

[mecovey]

I just sent them a note thanking them for their efforts. I didn't think anybody was going to have the courage to stand up to the bullying tactics of UP. Go Kadee!

[tomwatkins]

Excellent news! I'm glad that someone has mustered the courage to take them on, particularly in the area of "fallen flags" It's about time.
Big Jim, I like your quote. It's one of my favorites, and I think it's appropriate. Sometimes all it takes is for someone to decide to make a stand and not retreat.
Tom Watkins

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I take it this is about their N scale trains with UP and fallen flag markings. Go Kadee!!!! I was hoping that a brave soul would turn up.

There is no mention of N Scale on the Kadee website. If you're referring to Micro Trains, that is a seperate company.

Cheers,

Ed

[BRAKIE]

Little Ole KD goin' ta take on a multi billion dollar corporation with the law on its side...Notice that all the other manufacturers knew better and sign the agreement...Give it up KD before you need to raise your coupler and car prices in order to pay your attorney fees.[V][V]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I take it this is about their N scale trains with UP and fallen flag markings. Go Kadee!!!! I was hoping that a brave soul would turn up.

There is no mention of N Scale on the Kadee website. If you're referring to Micro Trains, that is a seperate company.

Cheers,

Ed

Oops, I guess I'm way behind the times, because I don't model in HO or N, though I used to a long time ago (20+ years). I see they are making HO cars. That would be justification enough for a challenge. Like I said before, GO KADEE!!![^]

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Little Ole KD goin' ta take on a multi billion dollar corporation with the law on its side...Notice that all the other manufacturers knew better and sign the agreement...Give it up KD before you need to raise your coupler and car prices in order to pay your attorney fees.[V][V]

[#ditto]

sad but true !

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lupo

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Little Ole KD goin' ta take on a multi billion dollar corporation with the law on its side...Notice that all the other manufacturers knew better and sign the agreement...Give it up KD before you need to raise your coupler and car prices in order to pay your attorney fees.[V][V]

[#ditto]

sad but true !

[#ditto] Why does anyone even bother...........

[howmus]

At least someone is going to try and challenge UP. Paying licensing fees for fallen flags is a bit rediculous. Operating RRs I think have at least a good point of having an in use logo. Even then they are losing "good will" and free advertising. I don't buy certain types of clothing because I refuse to give free advertising to multibillion dollar companys by proudly showing off their logos on my person. I guess that is one reason I decided years ago to model a mythical railroad. [}:)]

[daniel1967]

QUOTE: Originally posted by howmus

At least someone is going to try and challenge UP. Paying licensing fees for fallen flags is a bit rediculous. Operating RRs I think have at least a good point of having an in use logo. Even then they are losing "good will" and free advertising. I don't buy certain types of clothing because I refuse to give free advertising to multibillion dollar companys by proudly showing off their logos on my person. I guess that is one reason I decided years ago to model a mythical railroad. [}:)]

[banghead][banghead]Ya- I hate billion dollar corps., what they represent,....and

I'm gonna stop shipping UP. today! thats how ya hurt 'em.... that's how you win[:(!]

[TomDiehl]

Of course, this whole thing has a "David and Goliath" look to it, but I believe that the law is on the side of the Union Pacific. They should hold the copyrights to all paint schemes, logos, and slogans associated with their current railroad, and have full control over who uses them. The only thing Kadee may have in their favor is existing use, they used these for how many years without the written license agreement.

"Fallen Flags" is another issue. This side is a more uncertain area, since Union Pacific is doing away with all of the absorbed railroad's identities.

A token "users fee" for the model railroad manufacturer's would probably be the best course of action for any of the railroads. It would maintain good will and show a legal precident if any other company wanted to use their logos or slogans without the UP's permission.

[Anonymous]

Excuse me but railroads have been getting a lot of bad press lately and just about the only members of the public who think they have a future are us hobbyists. Go ahead. alienate your best friends. Besides, the companies who engage in licensing are consumer oriented and are mostly in the entertainment sector. Class ! railroads are neither. and most of their P.R. efforts consist of safety messages which have the effect of telling the public that railroads are dangerous neighbors and recent news coverage bears this out. Yes, railroads are multi'billion dollar companies, and the goodwill that they get from a healthy model railroad industry is worth more to them than the few bucke that they stand to gain from a wounded model railroad industry. I hope Bromley loses this battle because UP will gain more from our hobby if the precident which has stood since Bing and Ives put prototype road names on their tin litho trains 90 YEARS AGO continues..

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

.... They should hold the copyrights to all paint schemes, logos, and slogans associated with their current railroad, and have full control over who uses them. ...

Actually this is done under trademark law, not copyright law. Copyrights expire, trademarks do not. On the other hand the purpose of trademark law is to prevent confusion by not allowing a second company to copy the slogans, symbols etc. of the first. Thus you can't use UP's trademarks to trick people into doing business with you thinking it is Union Pacific. Failure to protect trademarks can result in their loss - for example asprin.

I'm not a lawyer so I can't give you all the legal arguments about why UP needs to prevent model companies from using their symbols much less why trademarks for fallen flags would still be active. My own personal opinion is that the trademark law should not apply here.

I'm rooting for Kadee to win, but I don't know if they have the resources for this fight.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

I can see the trademark thing on the UP Sheid but come on!? Fallen Flags. ONce the last logo is painted over it should be free. UP shouldn't be able to do taht at all. its just wrong. GO KADEE

[dehusman]

What people forget is that the railroad isn't just boxcars and engines. The UP is and has been communications companies, logistics companies, software developers, truck lines, air frieght, airlines, land developers, ski resorts, cement plants, coal mines, and telephone companies just to name a few. While you may think that just because the Denver South Park and Pacific stopped running trains 100 years ago its gone, I can assure you that someplace in the vaults of the UP there are contracts, deeds and obligations of the DSP&P that are in full legal force.
The UP didn't trademark its logos because of model trains, it trademarked its logos to protect its real businesses.
If you think "fallen flag" trademarks are up for grabs, try starting an automobile company and calling it "Oldsmobile". That's a fallen flag. Which will be the larger: the number of GM lawyers that show up on your doorstep or the number of minutes it takes them to get there?

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

The UP has VERY BAD PRESS and the WORST employee morale of any major US company.

[Anonymous]

Are you a UP attorney? I'll take a personal injury plaintiff's counsel any day. At least they fight for the little guy.. If UP wants o destroy the model railroafd industry, OK but they mightr as well cut up the #844 while they're at it because their bad image couldn'n get much worse at that point. Perhaps a token fee could be paid to protect their "real" businesses but they would be making a reakl mistake if they want to use this as a revenue stream.or to even come clost to breaking even on it, This is just anoujer example of Corporate America's arrogance.

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

What people forget is that the railroad isn't just boxcars and engines. The UP is and has been communications companies, logistics companies, software developers, truck lines, air frieght, airlines, land developers, ski resorts, cement plants, coal mines, and telephone companies just to name a few. While you may think that just because the Denver South Park and Pacific stopped running trains 100 years ago its gone, I can assure you that someplace in the vaults of the UP there are contracts, deeds and obligations of the DSP&P that are in full legal force.
The UP didn't trademark its logos because of model trains, it trademarked its logos to protect its real businesses.
If you think "fallen flag" trademarks are up for grabs, try starting an automobile company and calling it "Oldsmobile". That's a fallen flag. Which will be the larger: the number of GM lawyers that show up on your doorstep or the number of minutes it takes them to get there?

Dave H.

[Leon Silverman]

If Kadee loses their suit, they should relable the cars "PU" to avoid having to pay any fees.

[davekelly]

I have to admire Kadee in this. It's a long shot, but I think will set a precedent. As far as i know this issue has never been fully litigated so it should prove interesting. It wouldn'[t surprise me that the strategy of Kadee is more of a PR thing. I'm sure the press will jump all over UP in its editorials. It may cause other railroads take a more simple approach (licening without fees, just corporate approval of a product) so that they can say "we make our money by making customers happy-not by taking money from kids" (I'm sure the public will be more sympathetic to a child buying trains). Could you iimagine the yardage BNSF could get out of this?

[Anonymous]

What I don't understand is how the railroads can get away with charging royalties after years, in fact decades, of not doing so.

[gvdobler]

JB

Suppose you're walking thru the office supply section of Walmart and you see a nice calendar. Upon inspection you find it is of "House Trailers Across America."

You turn to the month of July and guess what, it's a picture of your double-wide trailer. Now Walmart will probably sell at least five or six million of anything they put in their stores. At 10 bucks a pop there a fair chunk of change.

For yor share of the profits, which lawyer are you going to call first.

Someone is paying royalties to someone on almost anything you buy.

Jon - Las Vegas

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gvdobler

JB

Suppose you're walking thru the office supply section of Walmart and you see a nice calendar. Upon inspection you find it is of "House Trailers Across America."

You turn to the month of July and guess what, it's a picture of your double-wide trailer. Now Walmart will probably sell at least five or six million of anything they put in their stores. At 10 bucks a pop there a fair chunk of change.

For yor share of the profits, which lawyer are you going to call first.

Someone is paying royalties to someone on almost anything you buy.

Jon - Las Vegas

VERY GOOD POINT JON! That's probanly the best way I've ever heard it described![8D]

[Anonymous]

Another poster said that UP should be satisfied with the inclusion of advertising ands PR materials in a UP branded model railroad product. I think that this is a wonderful idea which would add value for the purchaser who would get to learn about the role of UP in today's economy and receive safety and other PR messages. This is the proverbial win-win that would make the model railroad industry a partner with the railroads. It would allow UP to mark their territory and get their message out to an eager audience. Particularly exciting is the potential to include safety and educational materials into train sets intended for the youth market. Even if that child never makes another model railroad purchase in his life, he/she will have been exposed to information about railroad safety and the role of UP in today's economy at a very impressionable tine and situation in his/her life. Making this into a revenue stream, however would destroy model railroading. I stand behind this statement. If UP gets a revenue stream from this, prices will go up and up as locomotive builders and everyone else put their paws out for more and more loot. EVERY OTHER licensing deal involves companies who deal with consumers. As several posters who disagree with me like to point out, folks who buy model trains are not customers of railroads. But we have something else the railroads want called VOTES. Besides, the LAST THING RAILROADS WANT IS TO BE IN A CONSUMER BUSINESS. UP should be happy with making the toy and model train industry pay to insert quality made booklets written by John Bromley and his staff and then inserting them into all model train packages which contain UP branded product.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

The UP has VERY BAD PRESS and the WORST employee morale of any major US company.

Irrelevant. Hardly an argument to dilute a trademark's legal protection.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rails5

What I don't understand is how the railroads can get away with charging royalties after years, in fact decades, of not doing so.

Simple. The free ride is over.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

Amen Wayne.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: What people forget is that the railroad isn't just boxcars and engines. The UP is and has been communications companies, logistics companies, software developers, truck lines, air frieght, airlines, land developers, ski resorts, cement plants, coal mines, and telephone companies just to name a few.

Don't forget railroad-construction finance companies! Maybe we should re-label all our UP equipment "Credit Mobilier RR" and see if they try to sue for that one...

Just because it's "THE LAW" doesn't mean it's RIGHT.