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would a well written web-site on modeling science be of interest?

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Posted by BATMAN on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 10:40 AM

Recently, I was having an issue with speed matching my new Rapido F7B unit. The problem stemmed from my lack of knowledge and understanding of DCC that comes from not enough time to do everything in life, though we try. After asking numerous questions on this and other forums, Facebook pages and groups like the NCC group, I had my answers. The best info I got was through some articles that a few people had sent privately so as to avoid copyright issues. I got a good education through this material that was given to me but I never would have found it otherwise.

I think a site like "ModelRailroadingPedia" or "ModelRailroadingWiki" would be of great benefit and could cover all topics including the science involved of both prototype and model. The sky is the limit on what could be included. It would be a tremendous amount of work to maintain and police if the Wiki route was the path taken.

My kid has appeared in a few Marvel movies and TV shows as an extra but even though he was an extra he has played the role of certain characters that have a name and history in the Marvel universe. On the MarvelWiki site, his roles are listed but what is different from IMDB where his role/part is credited is the history of the character is given in some detail. More to digest for those that wish to consume it. More to digest for model railroaders would be well received as you can never have too much info.

A comprehensive Pedia site for the hobby could greatly complement all the info already out there but would be a lot of work. If you could get it producing revenue it could be a worth while endeavour. Maybe one exist already, I have not looked.

Oh ya, when the kid asks me to do something for him, I just remind him of all the superpowers he has and he can just do it himself. Laugh

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 9:28 AM

maxman
 
richhotrain

 gregc

(that reminds me that i need to call Tony's Trains because a brand new AR isn't working the way i expect)  

How is it not working the way you expect? 

Rich 

Hello, Rich.  GregC answers (asks?) this question over in the electronics/Dcc forum under the title Calling RichHOTrain. 

Thanks, max, I will check it out. 

That version of my screen name was first assigned to me about 15 years ago on the CTT forum. I love it. 

Rich Hot Rain

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Posted by NVSRR on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 8:12 AM

Don't forget the younger generations love thier electrical doohickeys.  A well thought out website might be of value in gaining more interest in the younger set and educational.    Like Adriano's and those interested in electronics in high school or middle school.  The hobby gives them a place to put thier Adriano or pi. Ideas to a practical or demonstrative use.    We as older gen mostly don't see or are as interested in the value of electronics aspect as the younger.     There is however much to be said about knowing oldschool. And it's value

 

shane

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An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel

A realist sees a frieght train

An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space

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Posted by maxman on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 7:57 AM

richhotrain

 gregc

(that reminds me that i need to call Tony's Trains because a brand new AR isn't working the way i expect) 

 

 

How is it not working the way you expect?

 

Rich

 

Hello, Rich.  GregC answers (asks?) this question over in the electronics/Dcc forum under the title Calling RichHOTrain.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, April 19, 2021 11:39 AM

rrebell

Problem with a lot of stuff like voltage drop, it dosn't affect most modelers. Trouble with the NMRA is they are stuck in the past to some extent and they do not control their divisions or care about their members. Now I know some areas have a great group but others, not so much and their are some that are really bad. Remember one forum member who was told to join another divsion because of where he lived even though the one he wanted to join was much closer. I personaly don't like them much after my dealings with them on many levels including national. Just one example is I tried to become a lifetime member when that was available. I asked for the price which they had to come up with and 6 months later they replyed that that option was no longer available, that rule had just changed so I would have had a long time in which to sign on and pay. Another thing that always buged me when a member were the auctions that were basicaly controled by e-bayers for their own gain and also the cliques in that division.

 

And those types of problems with the NMRA have nothing to do with the ideas of information availability being discussed here.

Personally, I have been an NMRA member since 1968 and I have never been to a convention.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rrebell on Monday, April 19, 2021 10:11 AM

Problem with a lot of stuff like voltage drop, it dosn't affect most modelers. Trouble with the NMRA is they are stuck in the past to some extent and they do not control their divisions or care about their members. Now I know some areas have a great group but others, not so much and their are some that are really bad. Remember one forum member who was told to join another divsion because of where he lived even though the one he wanted to join was much closer. I personaly don't like them much after my dealings with them on many levels including national. Just one example is I tried to become a lifetime member when that was available. I asked for the price which they had to come up with and 6 months later they replyed that that option was no longer available, that rule had just changed so I would have had a long time in which to sign on and pay. Another thing that always buged me when a member were the auctions that were basicaly controled by e-bayers for their own gain and also the cliques in that division.

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 19, 2021 8:43 AM

I think that people marvel at the complexity of engineering and the ingenuity of engineers and accept it for what it is.

Rich

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, April 19, 2021 8:38 AM

gregc
i think some people believe when engineers design something (e.g. helicopter on Mars) they just look something up in a textbook that tells them how to do it.

Yep, and some believe when a technician fixes a car, they just plug in a computer, the car tells them what is wrong, and they simply change that part.

Of course, the job of the service writer is to make it seem that simple to the customer, so in some ways, the industry is to blame a bit.

-Kevin

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 19, 2021 8:29 AM

gregc

(that reminds me that i need to call Tony's Trains because a brand new AR isn't working the way i expect) 

How is it not working the way you expect?

Rich

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Posted by gregc on Monday, April 19, 2021 8:18 AM

i think some people believe when engineers design something (e.g. helicopter on Mars) they just look something up in a textbook that tells them how to do it.

science describes what we know and helps figure out how to do things, determine what is possible as well as what is not likely to work and why.

i think a modeling science site would help modelers understand why something won't work (e.g pulling 20 cars up a 4% grade)  as well as helping try something new that isn't common or has been written about.

richhotrain
I am just interested in having things work.

i agree that many of us and most of the time this is exactly what we want.   but there's an aspect of the hobby where people are doing something unconventional or figure out how to make something work in an unusual situation.   (that reminds me that i need to call Tony's Trains because a brand new AR isn't working the way i expect)

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 19, 2021 7:58 AM

gregc

so a well written article on indexed (bank selected?) CVs? 

With the advent of sound decoders and the development of more sophisticated lighting functions, decoder manufacturers have had to expand the use of CVs to incorporate all of these features. The result is indexed CVs. So, yes, I think that a well written article on indexing CVs would be useful to a lot of modelers.

Rich

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Posted by gregc on Monday, April 19, 2021 7:39 AM

so a well written article on indexed (bank selected?) CVs?

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 19, 2021 7:25 AM

gregc
 
richhotrain
I recently had to force myself to develop some expertise on CV values for setting Mars light effects, and it was frustrating although I eventually succeeded. 

would you have been interested in a well written article discussing CV registers and settings and how they can be used for various purposes?    it wouldn't necessarily answer your specific need, but help you better understand so you could figure it out easier. 

Not really, but only because I already understand that stuff. Such an article might be more interesting to someone unfamiliar with CV registers and settings. Where that really gets complex, and therefore harder for a lot of people to comprehend, is indexed CVs.

Rich

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Posted by gregc on Monday, April 19, 2021 7:08 AM

richhotrain
I recently had to force myself to develop some expertise on CV values for setting Mars light effects, and it was frustrating although I eventually succeeded.

would you have been interested in a well written article discussing CV registers and settings and how they can be used for various purposes?    it wouldn't necessarily answer your specific need, but help you better understand so you could figure it out easier.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 19, 2021 6:49 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Greg has explained to me via private message that his vision here is to go pretty deep into the "why" things work they way they do. Not sure there is really much interest with most modelers. 

I have to agree. Although some aspects of model railroading are not always fun and relaxing, enjoyment and relaxation are my primary objectives.

I recently had to force myself to develop some expertise on CV values for setting Mars light effects, and it was frustrating although I eventually succeeded.

Why things work the way they do would not really interest me much. I am just interested in having things work. When I have to figure out how to make things work, my interest level quickly declines.

Rich

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, April 19, 2021 6:37 AM

richhotrain

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
SeeYou190 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders. 

I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder.

They are very worthwhile to have.

-Kevin 

I thought it was interesting that this thread stopped dead in its tracks after my post....

I knew you would be someone who appreciates their value.

Sheldon 

 

 

I never took the time to respond to this thread, but my feeling is that a book would be doomed to failure.

 

I used to buy technical books on various topics like household wiring, deck construction, automobile repairs, etc. But the emergence of the Internet changed all of that. 

What would make sense, in my opinion, would be a series of Sticky threads on technical topics, authored by forum members who know what they are talking about.

Rich

 

We have that on the tractor forum. It works well.

Greg has explained to me via private message that his vision here is to go pretty deep into the "why" things work they way they do. Not sure there is really much interest with most modelers.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 19, 2021 6:25 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
 
SeeYou190 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders. 

I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder.

They are very worthwhile to have.

-Kevin 

I thought it was interesting that this thread stopped dead in its tracks after my post....

I knew you would be someone who appreciates their value.

Sheldon 

I never took the time to respond to this thread, but my feeling is that a book would be doomed to failure.

I used to buy technical books on various topics like household wiring, deck construction, automobile repairs, etc. But the emergence of the Internet changed all of that. 

What would make sense, in my opinion, would be a series of Sticky threads on technical topics, authored by forum members who know what they are talking about.

Rich

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Posted by gregc on Monday, April 19, 2021 5:15 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Something similar to what Greg is suggesting has existed for nearly 70 years and is currently being revised, updated and is available online by the NMRA.

i didn't know that.    it reminds me of the doomsday bomb in Dr Strangelove that was kept secret.

while the NMRA site presumably provides a treasure trove of modeling information, there's a difference between modeling information and modeling science.    modeling science does not describe "how-to" do something, it explains why.    clearly you don't need to understand how things work (e.g. DCC) to build a layout and i expect few modelers would be interested in modeling science.

i've often read posts recommending no more than a 2% grade.    i ask why?    along these lines, why does a particular model (e.g. F8) from one manufacturer pull more cars than the same model from a different manufacturer.    what restrictions would allow a 3+% grade?

while many simply built Linn Westcott's transistor throttle, he explained the circuit and why he designed it the way he did.  i was fascinated by it.   His articles went far beyond basic wiring and intermediate electronics.   (i gotta wonder if he were editor today, if he would publish articles on microcontroller firmware)?

should there be a discussion of house wiring needs for a basement layout?

so i still believe book/site on modeling science is absent

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, April 12, 2021 10:35 AM

SeeYou190

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders.

 

I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder.

They are very worthwhile to have.

-Kevin

 

I thought it was interesting that this thread stopped dead in its tracks after my post....

I knew you would be someone who appreciates their value.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, April 12, 2021 8:50 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders.

I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder.

They are very worthwhile to have.

-Kevin

Living the dream.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, April 1, 2021 5:29 PM

Something similar to what Greg is suggesting has existed for nearly 70 years and is currently being revised, updated and is available online by the NMRA.

The NMRA Data Sheets

Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders.

I still have my original paper set from 1968 when I joined the NMRA, they are still a very valueable resource.

More than a decade ago the NMRA began updating and expanding the data sheets and putting them on line.

Today on the members only portion of their website you can look at all the old ones like I have in print, and new ones that have been developed over the last few years. All are in PDF files.

Some subjects Greg has suggested are covered, or partly covered, and I believe they are open to those interested in creating more new Data Sheets on new topics of interest.

Yes, you have to join to use this feature...........

So those of you who are not members, could not find this on the web site like you can the Standards and RP's. You have to be logged in.

My old paper set fills a 2" binder, so I am not about to try to even tell you all the subjects covered.

But many of those questions I have answered on here, when people say "how did you know that?" - I first learned much of that at age 12, by reading my NMRA Data Sheets.

When the new program started I was invited by a well known modeler who will remain nameless in this convesation to help with the Data Sheet project. Unfortunately some family matters that came up prevented me from devoting the necessary time. 

I do consider it something I will revisit as I move into my semi-retirement mode.

Just my opinion, but the NMRA has been worth every penny of membership dues for the last 53 years.......

And I'm not a convention goer, or event hound.......

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 1, 2021 4:34 PM

You don't make Zimmerit, you put it.  Kinda like you can't get down off an elephant...

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 1, 2021 4:18 PM

Hi Greg,

I'm not sure that a book would be the best venue, particularly when it comes to electronics. There is a risk that the information could become stale in a year or two. A website would be much more easily kept up to date.

Would I use such a website? The answer is yes, but likely only for fairly basic information. I'm not interested in how much a locomotive should be able to pull. My locomotives are likely able to pull more cars than I can line up on my layout so to me it is a moot issue. However, it would be nice to have things like reference charts for wire sizes and maximum load, drill equivalents or even a simple metric to imperial  converter all available in one spot. I have all that information now, but I have to do a bit of searching to find specifically what I want.

Would you set this up as a commercial venture, i.e. having paid advertising on the website? I think that, given all the effort that you would have to go to to gather the information, at least covering your costs would be justifiable. Of course, then you might run into copyright issues if you are making money from other's work.

My 2 Cents

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, April 1, 2021 12:56 PM

gregc
I wonder about those who read MR magazines from cover to cover because they're interested in all aspects of the hobby.  wouldn't they be interested in the technical aspects of both the hobby as well as full-scale railroads.

I am one of those guys... I can read Model Railroader cover to cover because the editorial style is easy for me to read.

Technical, detailed, scientific, etc. writings require more attention and effort.

I actually currently enjoy Fine Scale Modeler more than Model Railroader for reading. Fine Scale Modeler is just a lot more fun since they stopped being "all WW2 all the time". The new whimsical content (Sci-Fi, Steam Punk, Figure Modeling, Wargaming, Shadow Boxes, even Model Railroading) has breathed a lot of new life into the content.

How many articles can you read about making zimmermit on a Tiger I?

-Kevin

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Posted by selector on Thursday, April 1, 2021 12:11 PM

gregc

...

wonder what it would take ...

 

An organizer, maybe you, or someone you know, and probably a fair bit of collaboration with some SME's.  Subject Matter Experts.  Then, each gets assigned a chapter or three, and you agree to meet once a month virtually to see how things are coming along.  Eventually, you'll publish the first edition, probably of one or two.

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Posted by gregc on Thursday, April 1, 2021 11:43 AM

i realize that those who frequent the forum do not represent the population of model railroaders.    but i believe many of the threads asking for help are technical.   there is a forum dedicated to electronics.   and the hobby is becoming more technical with, DCC, WiFi throttles, arduinos, ...

i wonder about those who read MR magazines from cover to cover because they're interested in all aspects of the hobby.  wouldn't they be interested in the technical aspects of both the hobby as well as full-scale railroads.

i can understand how many are more interested in the construction of scenery and structures if their day job is more technical or business oriented.    but for those non-MRRs whose hobby might be ornithology, wouldn't they be interested in all aspects and details of ornithology?

so a modeling science web-site would presumably be more helpful to those with less technical backgrounds who struggle with such concepts or are just interested in such things.

 

 

yes, i agree a well maintained web-site would be better because multiple authors with different expertise can contribute and it can be updated as needed.    but it should be supported by an organization (e.g. NMRA) not personal.

the NMRA does have some technical pages describing electronic circuits such as detection and the Pacific Coast Region has technical clinic write-ups.   

presumably a benefit of having an organization supporting such a site is to have an editor that maintains a certain level of quality, provide sufficient introduction and gradually introduce more advanced discussion.

i wonder if the NMRA would attract more members if it had a more comprehensive set of pages that more people found useful.

 

wonder what it would take ...

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 1, 2021 11:18 AM

I think there is clearly a place for a series of printed books, each containing some aspect of the hobby.  It would be very useful to have some discussion of the science involved -- both in prototype and model-specific terms! -- so that people reading and using the book as a 'bench reference' can get right answers without wading through mistakes or oversimplification or long and complicated explication.

Obviously to me, this would be backed up by both 'book-content' Web sites and links to other resources... such as here.  It would be very simple, in principle, to put short and easily-copied links in book discussions 'if you want to know more' -- and no reason why more than one link, depending for example on learning style or degree of interest or skill or budget for tools and materials, could be selected...

The alternative as I see gregc proposing it is interesting: put a précis in each chapter of the science-and-technology, and then link to the 'rest of the story' (like what to do with the techniques and materials described) using the same short-link-by-learning-preference approach.

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Posted by angelob6660 on Thursday, April 1, 2021 11:16 AM

I barely understand the wiring and installing DCC. Electronics has changed. Especially playing with the computer and phone apps.

If people want to be miniature technical and electrical than they can get the books.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, April 1, 2021 11:03 AM

I have a master of science degree, but I'm in the hobby to relax and have fun.  A book on the science behind all those things is not my idea of relaxation.  I would not be interested.  I imagine most people in the hobby would feel the same way, but I don't know for sure.

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