considering various topics over the years, regarding the more technical aspects of the hobby, i wonder if a book on modeling science would be of interest.
i believe it should include the topics below as well as some basic electronics.
i would also include a section on the science behind full-scale railroads, both for the sake of curiousity as well as why aspects of full-scale railroads don't scale
a well maintain web-site (i.e. NMRA.org) could add information left out of after initial publishing, from more than one author.
- grades - vertical easements - effective grade of curves - tractive force: how many cars should a loco pull - wheel resistance - wire run voltage drop vs wire gauge - feeder locations - variations in turnout dimensions - curved turnout geometry - LEDs - BEMF - how motors work - how dcc works - DCC block detection - DCC auto-reversers - proprietary inteface - more realistic operation based on Newton's Laws - prototypical purpose of superelevation on curves
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Personally, I don't think there would be as much interest for a book about the science behind MMRing from a majority of modelers as there would be for a well-maintained website, which can more easily be updated and improved upon. However, I think that most MRRers would not get all that geeked out about the latter, either.
My ...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
A well-mainted webpage is of greater value (IMHO). A static book is more likely to sit on a shelf than something folks can quickly check at their leasure. Are you looking at doing this yourself? I lack the brain power to contribute, but think that's a wiser option. I bet there are plenty of engineers or other technicians who can engage.
gregcI wonder if a book on modeling science would be of interest.
Greg, not sure if you are taking a survey or looking for input.
If you want to survey people, no, this would not interest me. I don't know how many people are like me with smaller layouts built just for fun with one operator.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I like the idea of a single go-to place for more complex technical issues. Putting it online makes sense for quick updates - it takes a long time to publish a book... Not sure the word "science" would be appropriate though. This is more in the realm of technology than science.
I also think that the comment made by Markto in another thread about the importance of good writing is worth noting here. But what a challenge that is for more advanced technical issues!
Simon
I have a master of science degree, but I'm in the hobby to relax and have fun. A book on the science behind all those things is not my idea of relaxation. I would not be interested. I imagine most people in the hobby would feel the same way, but I don't know for sure.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I barely understand the wiring and installing DCC. Electronics has changed. Especially playing with the computer and phone apps.
If people want to be miniature technical and electrical than they can get the books.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
I think there is clearly a place for a series of printed books, each containing some aspect of the hobby. It would be very useful to have some discussion of the science involved -- both in prototype and model-specific terms! -- so that people reading and using the book as a 'bench reference' can get right answers without wading through mistakes or oversimplification or long and complicated explication.
Obviously to me, this would be backed up by both 'book-content' Web sites and links to other resources... such as here. It would be very simple, in principle, to put short and easily-copied links in book discussions 'if you want to know more' -- and no reason why more than one link, depending for example on learning style or degree of interest or skill or budget for tools and materials, could be selected...
The alternative as I see gregc proposing it is interesting: put a précis in each chapter of the science-and-technology, and then link to the 'rest of the story' (like what to do with the techniques and materials described) using the same short-link-by-learning-preference approach.
i realize that those who frequent the forum do not represent the population of model railroaders. but i believe many of the threads asking for help are technical. there is a forum dedicated to electronics. and the hobby is becoming more technical with, DCC, WiFi throttles, arduinos, ...
i wonder about those who read MR magazines from cover to cover because they're interested in all aspects of the hobby. wouldn't they be interested in the technical aspects of both the hobby as well as full-scale railroads.
i can understand how many are more interested in the construction of scenery and structures if their day job is more technical or business oriented. but for those non-MRRs whose hobby might be ornithology, wouldn't they be interested in all aspects and details of ornithology?
so a modeling science web-site would presumably be more helpful to those with less technical backgrounds who struggle with such concepts or are just interested in such things.
yes, i agree a well maintained web-site would be better because multiple authors with different expertise can contribute and it can be updated as needed. but it should be supported by an organization (e.g. NMRA) not personal.
the NMRA does have some technical pages describing electronic circuits such as detection and the Pacific Coast Region has technical clinic write-ups.
presumably a benefit of having an organization supporting such a site is to have an editor that maintains a certain level of quality, provide sufficient introduction and gradually introduce more advanced discussion.
i wonder if the NMRA would attract more members if it had a more comprehensive set of pages that more people found useful.
wonder what it would take ...
gregc ... wonder what it would take ...
...
An organizer, maybe you, or someone you know, and probably a fair bit of collaboration with some SME's. Subject Matter Experts. Then, each gets assigned a chapter or three, and you agree to meet once a month virtually to see how things are coming along. Eventually, you'll publish the first edition, probably of one or two.
gregcI wonder about those who read MR magazines from cover to cover because they're interested in all aspects of the hobby. wouldn't they be interested in the technical aspects of both the hobby as well as full-scale railroads.
I am one of those guys... I can read Model Railroader cover to cover because the editorial style is easy for me to read.
Technical, detailed, scientific, etc. writings require more attention and effort.
I actually currently enjoy Fine Scale Modeler more than Model Railroader for reading. Fine Scale Modeler is just a lot more fun since they stopped being "all WW2 all the time". The new whimsical content (Sci-Fi, Steam Punk, Figure Modeling, Wargaming, Shadow Boxes, even Model Railroading) has breathed a lot of new life into the content.
How many articles can you read about making zimmermit on a Tiger I?
Hi Greg,
I'm not sure that a book would be the best venue, particularly when it comes to electronics. There is a risk that the information could become stale in a year or two. A website would be much more easily kept up to date.
Would I use such a website? The answer is yes, but likely only for fairly basic information. I'm not interested in how much a locomotive should be able to pull. My locomotives are likely able to pull more cars than I can line up on my layout so to me it is a moot issue. However, it would be nice to have things like reference charts for wire sizes and maximum load, drill equivalents or even a simple metric to imperial converter all available in one spot. I have all that information now, but I have to do a bit of searching to find specifically what I want.
Would you set this up as a commercial venture, i.e. having paid advertising on the website? I think that, given all the effort that you would have to go to to gather the information, at least covering your costs would be justifiable. Of course, then you might run into copyright issues if you are making money from other's work.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
You don't make Zimmerit, you put it. Kinda like you can't get down off an elephant...
Something similar to what Greg is suggesting has existed for nearly 70 years and is currently being revised, updated and is available online by the NMRA.
The NMRA Data Sheets
Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders.
I still have my original paper set from 1968 when I joined the NMRA, they are still a very valueable resource.
More than a decade ago the NMRA began updating and expanding the data sheets and putting them on line.
Today on the members only portion of their website you can look at all the old ones like I have in print, and new ones that have been developed over the last few years. All are in PDF files.
Some subjects Greg has suggested are covered, or partly covered, and I believe they are open to those interested in creating more new Data Sheets on new topics of interest.
Yes, you have to join to use this feature...........
So those of you who are not members, could not find this on the web site like you can the Standards and RP's. You have to be logged in.
My old paper set fills a 2" binder, so I am not about to try to even tell you all the subjects covered.
But many of those questions I have answered on here, when people say "how did you know that?" - I first learned much of that at age 12, by reading my NMRA Data Sheets.
When the new program started I was invited by a well known modeler who will remain nameless in this convesation to help with the Data Sheet project. Unfortunately some family matters that came up prevented me from devoting the necessary time.
I do consider it something I will revisit as I move into my semi-retirement mode.
Just my opinion, but the NMRA has been worth every penny of membership dues for the last 53 years.......
And I'm not a convention goer, or event hound.......
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders.
I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder.
They are very worthwhile to have.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders. I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder. They are very worthwhile to have. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders.
I thought it was interesting that this thread stopped dead in its tracks after my post....
I knew you would be someone who appreciates their value.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSomething similar to what Greg is suggesting has existed for nearly 70 years and is currently being revised, updated and is available online by the NMRA.
i didn't know that. it reminds me of the doomsday bomb in Dr Strangelove that was kept secret.
while the NMRA site presumably provides a treasure trove of modeling information, there's a difference between modeling information and modeling science. modeling science does not describe "how-to" do something, it explains why. clearly you don't need to understand how things work (e.g. DCC) to build a layout and i expect few modelers would be interested in modeling science.
i've often read posts recommending no more than a 2% grade. i ask why? along these lines, why does a particular model (e.g. F8) from one manufacturer pull more cars than the same model from a different manufacturer. what restrictions would allow a 3+% grade?
while many simply built Linn Westcott's transistor throttle, he explained the circuit and why he designed it the way he did. i was fascinated by it. His articles went far beyond basic wiring and intermediate electronics. (i gotta wonder if he were editor today, if he would publish articles on microcontroller firmware)?
should there be a discussion of house wiring needs for a basement layout?
so i still believe book/site on modeling science is absent
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders. I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder. They are very worthwhile to have. -Kevin I thought it was interesting that this thread stopped dead in its tracks after my post.... I knew you would be someone who appreciates their value. Sheldon
I used to buy technical books on various topics like household wiring, deck construction, automobile repairs, etc. But the emergence of the Internet changed all of that.
What would make sense, in my opinion, would be a series of Sticky threads on technical topics, authored by forum members who know what they are talking about.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL The NMRA Data Sheets Hundreds of pages, on endless subjects, mostly of a technical nature, of use and interest to model railroaders. I bought a full set of NMRA Data Sheets for about $25.00 and sealed them all in plastic top loaders in a huge binder. They are very worthwhile to have. -Kevin I thought it was interesting that this thread stopped dead in its tracks after my post.... I knew you would be someone who appreciates their value. Sheldon I never took the time to respond to this thread, but my feeling is that a book would be doomed to failure. I used to buy technical books on various topics like household wiring, deck construction, automobile repairs, etc. But the emergence of the Internet changed all of that. What would make sense, in my opinion, would be a series of Sticky threads on technical topics, authored by forum members who know what they are talking about. Rich
I never took the time to respond to this thread, but my feeling is that a book would be doomed to failure.
We have that on the tractor forum. It works well.
Greg has explained to me via private message that his vision here is to go pretty deep into the "why" things work they way they do. Not sure there is really much interest with most modelers.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Greg has explained to me via private message that his vision here is to go pretty deep into the "why" things work they way they do. Not sure there is really much interest with most modelers.
I recently had to force myself to develop some expertise on CV values for setting Mars light effects, and it was frustrating although I eventually succeeded.
Why things work the way they do would not really interest me much. I am just interested in having things work. When I have to figure out how to make things work, my interest level quickly declines.
richhotrainI recently had to force myself to develop some expertise on CV values for setting Mars light effects, and it was frustrating although I eventually succeeded.
would you have been interested in a well written article discussing CV registers and settings and how they can be used for various purposes? it wouldn't necessarily answer your specific need, but help you better understand so you could figure it out easier.
gregc richhotrain I recently had to force myself to develop some expertise on CV values for setting Mars light effects, and it was frustrating although I eventually succeeded. would you have been interested in a well written article discussing CV registers and settings and how they can be used for various purposes? it wouldn't necessarily answer your specific need, but help you better understand so you could figure it out easier.
richhotrain I recently had to force myself to develop some expertise on CV values for setting Mars light effects, and it was frustrating although I eventually succeeded.
so a well written article on indexed (bank selected?) CVs?
gregc so a well written article on indexed (bank selected?) CVs?
i think some people believe when engineers design something (e.g. helicopter on Mars) they just look something up in a textbook that tells them how to do it.
science describes what we know and helps figure out how to do things, determine what is possible as well as what is not likely to work and why.
i think a modeling science site would help modelers understand why something won't work (e.g pulling 20 cars up a 4% grade) as well as helping try something new that isn't common or has been written about.
richhotrainI am just interested in having things work.
i agree that many of us and most of the time this is exactly what we want. but there's an aspect of the hobby where people are doing something unconventional or figure out how to make something work in an unusual situation. (that reminds me that i need to call Tony's Trains because a brand new AR isn't working the way i expect)
gregc (that reminds me that i need to call Tony's Trains because a brand new AR isn't working the way i expect)
(that reminds me that i need to call Tony's Trains because a brand new AR isn't working the way i expect)
gregci think some people believe when engineers design something (e.g. helicopter on Mars) they just look something up in a textbook that tells them how to do it.
Yep, and some believe when a technician fixes a car, they just plug in a computer, the car tells them what is wrong, and they simply change that part.
Of course, the job of the service writer is to make it seem that simple to the customer, so in some ways, the industry is to blame a bit.
I think that people marvel at the complexity of engineering and the ingenuity of engineers and accept it for what it is.
Problem with a lot of stuff like voltage drop, it dosn't affect most modelers. Trouble with the NMRA is they are stuck in the past to some extent and they do not control their divisions or care about their members. Now I know some areas have a great group but others, not so much and their are some that are really bad. Remember one forum member who was told to join another divsion because of where he lived even though the one he wanted to join was much closer. I personaly don't like them much after my dealings with them on many levels including national. Just one example is I tried to become a lifetime member when that was available. I asked for the price which they had to come up with and 6 months later they replyed that that option was no longer available, that rule had just changed so I would have had a long time in which to sign on and pay. Another thing that always buged me when a member were the auctions that were basicaly controled by e-bayers for their own gain and also the cliques in that division.
rrebell Problem with a lot of stuff like voltage drop, it dosn't affect most modelers. Trouble with the NMRA is they are stuck in the past to some extent and they do not control their divisions or care about their members. Now I know some areas have a great group but others, not so much and their are some that are really bad. Remember one forum member who was told to join another divsion because of where he lived even though the one he wanted to join was much closer. I personaly don't like them much after my dealings with them on many levels including national. Just one example is I tried to become a lifetime member when that was available. I asked for the price which they had to come up with and 6 months later they replyed that that option was no longer available, that rule had just changed so I would have had a long time in which to sign on and pay. Another thing that always buged me when a member were the auctions that were basicaly controled by e-bayers for their own gain and also the cliques in that division.
And those types of problems with the NMRA have nothing to do with the ideas of information availability being discussed here.
Personally, I have been an NMRA member since 1968 and I have never been to a convention.