Lastspike, If you have access to the Trains Magazine archives, check out the November 1964 issue. It is one of Trains "All Diesel" issues and has a great article on the history of FM locomotives by Mr Diesel Guru himself, Jerry Pinkepank, entitled "Born At Beloit - The Story of the Cinderella of Dieselization: Fairbanks Morse" Coincidently, it was the first issue of Trains Magazine I ever bought. At 12 years of age, I was AMAZED to find there were other people like me out there and there was even a magazine to cater to us. Yes, I still have that issue in my magazine file - worn from lord knows how many readings.
7j43kOn occasion, however, there were third rails without covers:
Ooof. Sounds dangerous to me!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Lastspikemike But crossing a third rail was always very exciting. We understood we were never to stand on the third rail but we were never quite sure just how high we were supposed to jump over it.
But crossing a third rail was always very exciting. We understood we were never to stand on the third rail but we were never quite sure just how high we were supposed to jump over it.
Well, if it's got a cover, you CAN stand on it.
On occasion, however, there were third rails without covers:
Then, it could be a real problem. If you want to jump over the rail, you only have to clear it by a fraction of an inch. A sixteenth should do--a couple of millimeters. Should you fail to clear, you will experience probably 600 Volts.
Me, I'd walk around the end of the rail.
Ed
LastspikemikeThanks for that post. FM prime movers are of interest to me.
BEAUSABREReplacement of a single power assembly (cylinder liner and its two pistons) required moving the locomotive under a crane and removing (and later reinstalling) the locomotive's roof hatch, upper crankcase, upper caps, upper connecting rod caps, and upper crankshaft, making the operation much more time- and resource-intensive than a power assembly change on other engine types.
IMG_FMOP-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
FM_OP_03 by Edmund, on Flickr
FM_OP_36 by Edmund, on Flickr
FM_OP_18 by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
Lastspike, Here's some stuff I think you will like.
I think the Deltic engine was developed for Royal Navy Coastal Forces to replace the WW2 Packards supplied from the US. Looking at both the engine and locomotive
Napier Deltic - Wikipedia
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_55
I've held on to this about the Deltic for 55 years
THE CASE FOR THE 'SOULLESS' DIESEL
Another railway line sees its last steam engine, more photographs of wisping steam and wistful guards, more interviews with drivers who appreiate the comfort of the warm diesel cab but miss the romance of steam, and the phrase 'soulless diesel' crops up again. But it isn't tue. The last of the steam-engine drivers began with steam when young, and first love is never forgotten; but to the young and impressionable today, the diesel has its own appeal.
I first met the big diesels when I was an engineering apprentice. Learning by doing and watching, I was put into the test department where customers saw the engines they had bought put through their paces. Easy work, taking temperatures and flow rates every half hour and filling in the report sheets. They were big engines, and to take some of the readings meant climbing atop the engine amidst the exhaust pipes and valves.
At first it was frigtening standing there, half aware of the metal whirring and stamping in a wild dance forcing fuel into flame beneath your feet. Then, as trust grew that nothing would break loose, the magic began to work. Running at a tenth the speed of a car engine each cycle of each piston could be felt. The relentless rum-de-rum beat of the engine throbbed into one's body through the soles of the feet so that standing on the factory floor seemed lifeless by comparison.
Department followed department until once more diesels came into my life. In the development test house we ran the engines destined for the next generation of railway locomotives, engines running at a higher speed than the old monsters of the test shop and a totally different breed. No soothing rhythm to while away time spent leaning against a guard rail, but a fierce, hard rage of noise, a driving drum roll of 16-cylinder sound with the superchargers screaming a wild descant. And we apprentices served at this shrine of power, acolytes tending to the needs of engines built to give great power from the smallest space.
During endurance trials, we worked two shifts, eight to eight, round the clock, sweating in underpants and overalls from the heat of the engine; adjusting valves, topping up the oil, plotting temperatures, pressures and flows while the relentless noise crashed and battered about us.
Rubber earplugs kept out some of the row, but when we left at night and took out the plugs the silence was absolute, while inside our heads the noise went on and on.
Other jobs followed, but in time the circle was completed, when among the British Railways diesels I was helping to look after was one powered by the engine I had tended to in the test house five years earlier. Coupled to a dynamo, cased in aluminum and steel, and mounted on wheels, it seemed tamed. Hauling tons of people and parcels instead of boiling away its strength in the test house had subdued it.
Now it was solid and reliable, a useful dullard in the insulated engine room pushing us along at 90 mph through the night. But if I left the warm cocoon of the driving cab and passed through a pair of doors, all the old sound and fury was there: the waves of heat, the sickly smell of oil, the vibrating life at my shoulder as fire was created again and again in the cylinders 7,000 times a minute.
Now, I'm a commuter and an office worker, but the same magic still grips me as the West Riding Express slices through my station every morning hauled by the king of diesels. Even before it can be seen the hum from the engines hangs on the air and the change into top stride as Hatfield is passed three miles away clearly heard. Closer now, a gradual crescendo of sound, a yellow nose appears around the bend, an imperious double call from the horns, and the Deltic blasts past. Two engines, intricately made, pouring out the power in an exulting shout of sound. Seventy-two pistons racing up and down, squeezing the air in their aluminum grip until it is so hot that the fuel in it bursts into fire driving the pistons apart again in endlessly repeated cycle.
All this and yet, the tag 'soulless' still sticks.
- Antony Joyce in the Manchester Guardian, reprinted in Trains Magazine November, 1966
BEAUSABRE"They have run flawlessly and consistently since new." Quite unprototypical.
I expect better-than-life reliability from my models!
"They have run flawlessly and consistently since new."
Quite unprototypical.
"The Erie-Builts soon ran into problems with the OP engine that had not been experienced in Navy service. The 38D 8-1/8 engine as configured for the Erie-Builts Brake Mean Effective Pressure of 95.2 psi, as opposed to the 85 psi rating for Navy engines and 77 to 86.7 for the EMD 567 as used in the E7, FT and F3.[2] Submarines gave the engines access to cool, sea-level air, but on Western railroads like UP, the engines were operating under load at high altitude, high temperature, and low humidity, and often in the wake of waste heat from leading locomotives. Locomotives had closed-loop cooling systems while submarines drew cooling water from the sea. The OP engine had no head, and its exhaust ports were uncovered by the lower pistons. This resulted in excessive lower-piston temperatures, and under heavy load this led to piston failure, which could then cause cylinder liner damage and a possible crankcase explosion. F-M immediately attempted to address the problem but it was seven to eight years before a piston was developed that could stand up to railroad service.
Replacement of a single power assembly (cylinder liner and its two pistons) required moving the locomotive under a crane and removing (and later reinstalling) the locomotive's roof hatch, upper crankcase, upper caps, upper connecting rod caps, and upper crankshaft, making the operation much more time- and resource-intensive than a power assembly change on other engine types. Fairbanks-Morse learned that in shops that maintained multiple locomotive types, where the foreman was under pressure to repair as many locomotives as possible, repair of OP engines that required extensive disassembly was often delayed in favor of other types of locomotives that could be turned around more quickly"
I have P1K F3A & B and they were/are DCC ready. Kadee "wiskers" on all my stuff :D
Heartland Division CB&Q Older locomotives may have issues even if never run. You may need to clean the gears and lubricate them.
Absolutely true.
I have quite a few 30+ year old brass steamers and some 20+ year old Stewart/Kato F units, some of which still have never been run.
It is astounding how much an improvement simply cleaning the drive & gears and putting in a few drops of oil will do.
I don't think broken couplers should be a problem worth fighting with the seller. The factor-intalled couplers are junk, and they should be replaced with Kadee couplers anyhow.
I suggest simply replacing the couplers with Kadees and be happy with your purchase.
Regarding not running smoothly, Ed posted his experiences with a LL FA1. Older locomotives may have issues even if never run. You may need to clean the gears and lubricate them.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Lastspikemike I'm pretty sure NIB is not a legally defined term in contract law. But, whatever turns your crank.
I'm pretty sure NIB is not a legally defined term in contract law. But, whatever turns your crank.
Rich
Alton Junction
SeeYou190Since the couplers were damaged not in transit, Union Pacific 8444 has solid grounds to request a refund if the terms "NIB" or "new" were used to describe the items.
I believe there is a box for "items not as described." The seller may issue a refund and ask for the item back, or work out a compromise.
Gary
LastspikemikeI'm pretty sure NIB is not a legally defined term in contract law
Well, this is a huge improvement over the tone of your usual I-am-never-wrong-and-I-am-an-expert-in-eveything posts.
I hope this is the sign of a new beginning.
LastspikemikeNIB may not mean never taken out of the packaging. It should mean not run for any length of time.
That is not how eBay defines new.
Ebay is very clear on this. Something listed in the Toy & Hobby category can only be defined as "new" if it has never been removed from the original packaging.
Using "NIB", "NOS", "New-Test-Run-Only", or any other deformation of the term "new" is a violation of eBay terms and conditions if the item has EVER been out of the packaging.
All other items in the T&H category must be listed as "used" and cannot use any form of "new" in the description.
I report offending items all the time.
From the eBay website:
Since the couplers were damaged not in transit, Union Pacific 8444 has solid grounds to request a refund if the terms "NIB" or "new" were used to describe the items.
Lastspikemike Depends what broken couplers means also. Dropped out springs? Non functioning knuckle due to it being forced too far open? Lifelike original couplers should be replaced whether they seem to work or not. They don't work well even if undamaged and even if you find then acceptable to start with it won't be long beifre they drive you nuts. Walthers newer Proto couplers are quite nice and work very well. NIB may not mean never taken out of the packaging. It should mean not run for any length of time. The coupler should not break while the locomotive is actually resting in the box.
Depends what broken couplers means also. Dropped out springs? Non functioning knuckle due to it being forced too far open? Lifelike original couplers should be replaced whether they seem to work or not. They don't work well even if undamaged and even if you find then acceptable to start with it won't be long beifre they drive you nuts. Walthers newer Proto couplers are quite nice and work very well.
NIB may not mean never taken out of the packaging. It should mean not run for any length of time.
The coupler should not break while the locomotive is actually resting in the box.
Non functioning knuckle due to it being forced too far open. I agree. Almost all my Lifelike Proto locomotives had broken couplers.
SeeYou190 I am much more curious about how the couplers were broken. Unless the packaging was completely destroyed, it should have been able to protect the couplers from damage. How banged up were these model when they arrived? -Kevin
I am much more curious about how the couplers were broken.
Unless the packaging was completely destroyed, it should have been able to protect the couplers from damage.
How banged up were these model when they arrived?
The boxes were a bit banged up, but the inside was almost intact.
steemtrayn Look at the wheels to see how worn they are. This will tell you if it is new or not.
Look at the wheels to see how worn they are. This will tell you if it is new or not.
They had a bit of dust on them, but it was not too bad.
SeeYou190,
Yes. All the couplers were broken on both locomotives. I wonder why they were broken because they were packed very well and the erie-builts were in very good condition except for the broken couplers.
SeeYou190 UnionPacific8444 I've had bad experiences with life like protos before, so I should have known.. That is sad to hear. All the couplers were broken on both locomotives? That is very unusual. Were they packed well? I have many Life Like Proto locomotives, and a couple Walthers Proto, and except for craked gears on one GP, no issued at all. I do not have the Erie Builts, but GP7/9, SD7, FA1, E8s, and the FM switcher. -Kevin
UnionPacific8444 I've had bad experiences with life like protos before, so I should have known..
That is sad to hear.
All the couplers were broken on both locomotives? That is very unusual. Were they packed well?
I have many Life Like Proto locomotives, and a couple Walthers Proto, and except for craked gears on one GP, no issued at all.
I do not have the Erie Builts, but GP7/9, SD7, FA1, E8s, and the FM switcher.
rrinkerMakes me question the "new old stock" status with broken couplers.
Me too. As I mentioned before in a different thread, the last few locomotives I have purchased on eBay have been destroyed in transit due to poor packaging by the seller.
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to start a new thread for this question.
Can anyone verify that the UNDECORATED Proto 1K Erie Built locomotives were ever made? They were mentioned, but I have never seen one, and I have had an eye out for many many years.
Makes me question the "new old stock" status with broken couplers. They did come with absolutely horrible 'compatible' couplers as did all my P2K locos, that have a tendency to jam wide open and never move back, but I don;t use anything but real Kadees on anything, because I have yet to find any of the 'compatibles' that work as well as they do - and if the Walthers ones are supposed to be "just as good", well, they are no cheaper so why switch?
I have yet to have a bad P2K loco, and I have a bunch. Cracked gears don't count, it's $2 of Athearn parts to fix. Nver had an Erie Built, but did have a DL109 P1K, which was also fine - but that was purchased back when they first came out, it wasn't something sitting around for 15-20 years.
My stuff has all been packed away for 7 years or so at this point, except for a couple of locos I have on my bench (2 recent purchases of old locos, 2 recent purchases of new runs, and one of my older ones), so I expect to be going over each of them before placing them back in operation if I ever get my layout built far enough to run trains.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
LastspikemikeIf you glued down the coupler lids you may come to regret doing so.
If cyanoacrylate, be sure you can apply a correct solvent safely, without damaging other parts or paint (or lungs or DNA...). If thermoplastic glue, be sure you have safe means to heat just the bonded area to release it and not warp things. If the bond needs to be cut or scraped, be careful to apply the hold-down glue only in the areas you can reach, or restore if damaged during the "R&R".
A little foresight and forethought will probably pay dividends down the line...
Incidentally, to 'second' what Ed is saying: whether or not you plan to run careful lubrication of the appropriate multiple types in a locomotive, you have to clean the old grease and dirt out of the mechanism first 'no matter what'. I disagree with lastspikemike a little in principle, in that I think it's important to remove old hardened grease and potential corrosion from mechanism parts before applying any sort of new lubricants or solvents to be 'worked in over time' to loosen 'er up or do an analogue of wear-in testing. Even a few minutes of running one of those plastic gears against crud in a worm may cause irremediable tooth damage, which will probably NOT subsequently wear or polish out in use.
I won't say it's not 'better' to just relube instead of not doing anything -- but I'd surely want to tear down far enough to get all the old dirt and crap out of a 'new to me' driveline, and check to be sure everything was aligned and not warped or cracked, before doing any extensive testing or 'break-in running'. And that's what I'd recommend the OP do with these two units before he condemns them as poor quality out-of-hand.
This worm gear was in a new old stock L-L FA2 I bought about two years ago. Still in original shrink wrap.
Proto_gear-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
I fully anticipate the need to strip these engines down and give them a thorough "going over". I never expected to take a fifteen or twenty-year old locomotive out of the package, place it on a track and expect it to purr like a well-oiled machine.
You couldn't do this with an automobile either.
Proto_gear-9 by Edmund, on Flickr
These worm bearings were corroded and the lubrication had reacted with some alloys in the bronze bearings to form both the oxide you see and it turned the lube into a very effective resin-like pitch which locked the shaft quite effectively. That glazed lube is just like amber.
All 8 of the axle gears had to be replaced (as I expected). Lots of this Life-Like stock has been shuffled around, stored in cold, or very hot and damp climates. Many of the boxes I've seen show signs of being hauled around for years, probably to and from dozens of train shows.
I'm sorry to hear of your disappointment.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
The loco arrived on the mail today. All of the couplers were broken, even though it was "new old stock". Luckily, I had some kadee 158s, so i followed the directions on the manual to change the couplers. The tabs that held the coupler lids broke off (those things are ridiculously fragile), so I glued them on. It didn't run very smoothly compared to the other locos I have. It's hard to say, but it wasn't worth $116 in my opinion.. I've had bad experiences with life like protos before, so I should have known..
Grab it for $116, excellent price for new. Proto 1000s run terrific, even if they run a little fast (on DC anyway). I own an A and an A/B. A little less detail is not a problem for me and you don't have to be super careful about breaking lift rings and rungs. After awhile mine started to go thump thump down the track. LL sent me free new axles before Walthers came along, an easy replacement. Enjoy. -Rob
The P1K RDCs are easy to convert to DCC. Since the decoder I used had 4 functions, I also installed 2 LEDs in the passenger compartment for interior lighting.
In a world of shorty rubber band drive Athearn RDCs, and the shorty ATT (not the phone company) RDCs, the P1K was king. Then along came Rapido...