John and Charles,
I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money.
In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me.
Lights - I model an era before ditch lights, when daytime running with headlights was just becoming the norm, and Mars lights were just being tested and brought into use, I just want the headlight to come on when the train runs.
But as described many times, my PWM throttles provide some nice full brightness effects even for stopped trains.
John, the problem with BlueLine locos was the fact that BLI is hung up on sound. Clearly the idea of selling a loco without sound bothers them. And it bothers them that Kevin and I would remove their precious sound decoder, based on the "not so warm" response he got from them about how to rewire their locos for DC only.
There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed.
I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC.
I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now.
And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question:
Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy.
They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger.
They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b.
They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a.
Who made more money???????
Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed.
Sheldon
gmpullman Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean? Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out. I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better.
Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean?
Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out.
I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better.
Engi1487 gmpullman Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean? Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out. I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better. I see. I would have liked that if you had explained that in the first place, as how was I suppose to know to connect those two together?
I see. I would have liked that if you had explained that in the first place, as how was I suppose to know to connect those two together?
Rich
Alton Junction
There have been engines from BLI that I would have removed the decoders from if I could, but I did not know how to get them apart and how/what to do. As Sheldon noted, they do not tell you how to remove their sound. In some cases I can disassemble the mechanism and make repairs to the engine (like replacing missing driver springs that some have needed), but I don't know what to do with the electronics in the tender. I have had issues getting tenders apart at all, even when I'm following their own directions.
Clearly some of their engines are completely different animals from the original BLI offerings. There is a big difference, mechanically, between the first run Santa Fe 2-10-2, and the (decade later) Modernized Santa Fe 2-10-2. The second version is much better. The plastic gears in the first version all fail, it's just a matter of time. The Modernized version has a completely different mechanism with metal gears. It's actually imo much nicer.
So I would not be one to assume that the only improvements they've made are electronic.
There were details like piping that didn't always fit well on the original versions that were fixed when the later run was done.
John
Although doubtful it may happen, it would be agreeable with a number of modelers if BLI would offer "DCC Ready" units as an option.
I'm grateful that BLI produced the C&O J3a. It was a pleasat shock as a number of modelers had been asking manufacturers to tool one for years!
I was fortunate in having been able to ride the Family Lines "Operation Lifesaver" special, featuring the Chessie 614 years back. What a beauty of a machine it was to see in action! I even got to go inside her cab. I took photos and made a tape recording of my trip. Since then, my hope was that someone would produce a plastic HO version. My thought was that it would be Bowser. BLI's version appears to be a winner.
Whether in stock or on ebay, I'm budgeting for a BLI unit as they are quite expensive. I hope that the correct whistle (or, at least, the version used in the 1980's) is on BLI's decoder.
This would be my first "model" steamer (I had toy steamers as a small kid). Although I can't imagine running it in silent mode, I plan on having the sound levels on low settings as I've heard steamers at clubs with the volume turned rather high. Loud exhaust "Chuffs", especially at speeds over 30 smph, can become annoying after a while.
PRR8259 Then why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum. To say you are not going to buy any BLI engines at all when they are the largest or one of the largest remaining manufacturers of HO steam would seem to be unfortunate, but I can respect that choice, or those that make that choice. Unfortunately there is no perfect manufacturer. They all have their plusses and minuses. I love Kato's quality but some consider their diesel handrails to be coarse and many bemoan their utter lack of paint schemes. Their recent HO offerings have been rather limited, and the older I get the more I learn they made some tooling mistakes just like the other guys. I find the trend toward all fully featured engines to be disturbing, as at that point manufacturers are pushing some of us to buy stuff we don't want or really need, but it's just not up to me. I know the trend is ongoing. Yet at the same time, shopping online today, it's the plain dc units of some roadnames that are still sold out, while full featured ones may still be in stock. I don't know how you forecast demand from that. John
Then why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum.
To say you are not going to buy any BLI engines at all when they are the largest or one of the largest remaining manufacturers of HO steam would seem to be unfortunate, but I can respect that choice, or those that make that choice.
Unfortunately there is no perfect manufacturer. They all have their plusses and minuses. I love Kato's quality but some consider their diesel handrails to be coarse and many bemoan their utter lack of paint schemes. Their recent HO offerings have been rather limited, and the older I get the more I learn they made some tooling mistakes just like the other guys.
I find the trend toward all fully featured engines to be disturbing, as at that point manufacturers are pushing some of us to buy stuff we don't want or really need, but it's just not up to me. I know the trend is ongoing. Yet at the same time, shopping online today, it's the plain dc units of some roadnames that are still sold out, while full featured ones may still be in stock. I don't know how you forecast demand from that.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
At higher speeds, the BLI chuff just basically disappears or becomes a "whoosh". I don't think it'll be a bother. Usually there are a couple different whistles for the modeler to choose from. On UP offerings they even sometimes include a non-prototypical whistle choice because not everybody actually likes the UP steam whistles.
With the C&O engines, you may find the price goes up as they tend to sell out. That is not a model I would delay in obtaining, because they may actually turn into "unobtainium".
For the record, the BLI UP brass hybrid 2-10-2 of a just a few years ago now brings $1100 at brasstrains.com, and sells relatively quickly at that price--in days or weeks--even in used condition. The original price from BLI was far less. I think they were easily obtained for $500 or less. I wanted one but never acquired one. Didn't want it badly enough, I guess. It's a beauty of an engine.
Generally speaking the hybrid engines will perform better than the regular production engines. The only issue I ever really had with a hybrid was the sound cutting out at speed (and my son wanted to sell his GN 4-8-4 and get a big screen tv instead--now he wishes he had the GN engine--is all about the green boiler or blue-green boiler steam engines).
Face it Sheldon, we're a minority in this hobby.Surely you've seen that from posts just on this forum - people who's roster are a Big Boy or two, a Cab Forward, a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson, oh and a GS-4 Daylight. They're just happier running a series of iconic specialty locos instead of modeling one or two roads and a roster representing that. It's not my style of model railroading, and it's not yours, but it makes those people happy. If Big Boys didn't sell, there wouldn't be more model versions available than total actual Big Boys that ever existed.
As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. They are very distinctive locos, not suitable for other prototype roads for the most part, but they were after one market -the PRR modeler who wanted steam power/ They made what, 2, 3 locos (HO and N under the PCM name? Different decoder for the decoder versions, and not PRR locos - Reading T1 like the ones we both have. I will say I picked up my second one for $200 - and it's the DCC/Sound one. My first one, I got for a discount from the dealer I reserved with, and it wasn't completely perfect - had a loose wire and one of the driver springs wasn't in place, but it was an easy fix. Been perfect ever since - they originally came out when 16 years ago?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
PRR8259For the record, the BLI UP brass hybrid 2-10-2 of a just a few years ago now brings $1100 at brasstrains.com, and sells relatively quickly at that price--in days or weeks--even in used condition. The original price from BLI was far less. I think they were easily obtained for $500 or less.
A few weeks back on eBay I watched a NIB, non-sound, "DCC-ready" '40 BLI Dreyfuss Hudson bid up to and sell for $1,259. I picked mine up when it first came out in 2010 for <$400.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
rrinkerAs for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes.
Part of that may have to do with the cooperation they get from the PRRT&HS for locomotive details and paint specifications, etc.
Similarly, Rapido is working closely with the New Haven Historical Society. It makes the research part of the job go much easier and If I'm not mistaken, the New Haven fellows put some of their own cash on the line to get models produced.
Broadway got into the business at the beginning of DCC and had several trial baloons for "Stealth" and Blue-Line runs so I'm sure their accountant knows where the return on investment lies.
They may not publicize their wiring diagrams but I have seen replies from their tech people where they have provided the pin-out of some of their decoders. I haven't had any problems ringing out their wire assignments.
Admittedly, their smoke unit is something I have no use for and there sure is a lot of extra wiring going to that but it seems to be related to the "chuff synchronization" that drives the sub-miniature blower.
Try going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen.
richhotrainFear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it.
Thanks, Rich
Cheers, Ed
rrinker Face it Sheldon, we're a minority in this hobby.Surely you've seen that from posts just on this forum - people who's roster are a Big Boy or two, a Cab Forward, a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson, oh and a GS-4 Daylight. They're just happier running a series of iconic specialty locos instead of modeling one or two roads and a roster representing that. It's not my style of model railroading, and it's not yours, but it makes those people happy. If Big Boys didn't sell, there wouldn't be more model versions available than total actual Big Boys that ever existed. As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. They are very distinctive locos, not suitable for other prototype roads for the most part, but they were after one market -the PRR modeler who wanted steam power/ They made what, 2, 3 locos (HO and N under the PCM name? Different decoder for the decoder versions, and not PRR locos - Reading T1 like the ones we both have. I will say I picked up my second one for $200 - and it's the DCC/Sound one. My first one, I got for a discount from the dealer I reserved with, and it wasn't completely perfect - had a loose wire and one of the driver springs wasn't in place, but it was an easy fix. Been perfect ever since - they originally came out when 16 years ago? --Randy
There is no question that over the last 20 years HO collecting, and casual railfan modeling has grown in popularity. It is a chicken and egg question with the evolution of these high end RTR products.
But still, I suspect during the time they were offered, Bachmann sold just as many, if not more, USRA Heavy Mountains than BLI has sold Big Boys. And they are still selling those same 2-8-0's..........
And now that they are out of production, those USRA Heavy Mountains are not all that easy to come by. Glad I bought my 10......
I have had to "fine tune" most of the steam locos I own, Bachmann, BLI, matters not. The ones that have needed the least, my two Proto 2-8-8-2's and two 0-8-0's.
Again, I just think BLI misses a lot of sales because of the choices they have made.
I would have bought a B&O Pacific if the headlight and trailing truck had been correct, despite all the other inaccuracies of that model.
I think I will be picking up a few Bachmann USRA Pacifics and Mikados soon.
I model C&O, but I'm not interested in the monster 2-10-4, even with my 36" radius curves. The J3a maybe.
I would be interested in a WESTERN MARYLAND Challenger, don't guess we will ever see that in non brass......
For years I bought Bachmann DCC onboard locos that came with the dummy plug and instructions for removing the decoder - the decoders sold rather well on Ebay.....
Again, as this hobby evolves I'm glad I have most of what I want.
gmpullman rrinker As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. Part of that may have to do with the cooperation they get from the PRRT&HS for locomotive details and paint specifications, etc. Similarly, Rapido is working closely with the New Haven Historical Society. It makes the research part of the job go much easier and If I'm not mistaken, the New Haven fellows put some of their own cash on the line to get models produced. Broadway got into the business at the beginning of DCC and had several trial baloons for "Stealth" and Blue-Line runs so I'm sure their accountant knows where the return on investment lies. They may not publicize their wiring diagrams but I have seen replies from their tech people where they have provided the pin-out of some of their decoders. I haven't had any problems ringing out their wire assignments. Admittedly, their smoke unit is something I have no use for and there sure is a lot of extra wiring going to that but it seems to be related to the "chuff synchronization" that drives the sub-miniature blower. Try going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen. richhotrain Fear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it. Thanks, Rich Cheers, Ed
rrinker As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes.
richhotrain Fear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it.
I would not disagree with any of that.
Broadway worked to create and strengthen that part of the market, and that is what they are known for. My "feeling" is that they believe deeply in sound, and the "casual collecting", or RTR side of the hobby and see that as their main customer base.
I think at this point, and likely for a while, people not interested in sound have just ignored BLI.
And people seriously modeling roads other than the few they have focused in on also just ignore them.
And that is OK.
Bachmann made a two decade business out of catering to C&O modelers as much as possible, as well as other East Coast and Mid Western "lessor roads". They seem to have slowed down on the better offerings now, but the recent USRA Mike and Pacific do carry forward the legacy of Lee Riley to some degree.
Three of my seven Broadway pieces are "stealth" or BlueLine, so someone did buy them. I don't see Ebay flooded with them.....
Having some brackground in this business, my feeling from the beginning was that BLI has been straped for cash more of the time than not.
I think that has played a big role in their product selection and pricing/marketing choices.
I just think they could have been even more successful by understanding ALL of the market better. I could be wrong.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John and Charles, I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money. In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me. There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed. I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC. I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now. And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question: Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy. They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger. They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b. They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a. Who made more money??????? Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed. Sheldon
Precisely. As I was saying, Im not supporting BLI's choice of not selling DCC ready engines, just stating why they would do such a thing. What you said here is exactly what I was thinking.
And expecting BLI to produce engines of less prominance just isnt likely. Bachmann (a large company that has US, UK, and Chinese branches) gets away with doing it by producing them in large quantities, painting them in all sorts of fantasy schemes, and having prices set to attract more beginner modelers, who likely dont have a prototype chosen. BLI attracts a (somewhat) more experienced modeler base, who demand more realism.
For example, Bachmann's ICRR based 2-8-0 engine sold thousands. They made it in over 15 paint schemes.*
Ive had 8 of those alone at one point. Compare that to the (arguably) far less popular BLI fantasy 2-8-0 (from a modified H10s), which sales are pale in comparison. BLI likely took this, and realized that they will never make as much money making fantasy engines for the prices they charge as much as Bachmann can. Their fanbases/customers are simply different.
Also, Id argue BLI definently has better models than Bachmann. Bachmann engines rarely have bearings, drivers rarely sprung, often have those super orange LEDs(personal preference), need additional weight, have their crappy decoders(doesnt apply to you Im aware), often uses outdated dies and molds, etc. BLI may cost more, but besides the decoders, are otherwise very well built.
But that's personal opinion.
Dont get me wrong, Bachmann engines are cheap and plentiful, and are great candidates for freelancing and customization.
Charles
*(ATSF, Sou green, Sou black, WM, B&O, Rock Is, UP, SP, WP,N&W, Maine Cen, BLW, PRR, NYC, Durango & Silv)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the Santa Fe & Pennsylvania in HO
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLb3FRqukolAtnD1khrb6lQ
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Trainman440 ATLANTIC CENTRAL John and Charles, I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money. In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me. There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed. I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC. I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now. And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question: Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy. They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger. They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b. They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a. Who made more money??????? Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed. Sheldon Precisely. As I was saying, Im not supporting BLI's choice of not selling DCC ready engines, just stating why they would do such a thing. What you said here is exactly what I was thinking. And expecting BLI to produce engines of less prominance just isnt likely. Bachmann (a large company that has US, UK, and Chinese branches) gets away with doing it by producing them in large quantities, painting them in all sorts of fantasy schemes, and having prices set to attract more beginner modelers, who likely dont have a prototype chosen. BLI attracts a (somewhat) more experienced modeler base, who demand more realism. For example, Bachmann's ICRR based 2-8-0 engine sold thousands. They made it in over 15 paint schemes.* Ive had 8 of those alone at one point. Compare that to the (arguably) far less popular BLI fantasy 2-8-0 (from a modified H10s), which sales are pale in comparison. BLI likely took this, and realized that they will never make as much money making fantasy engines for the prices they charge as much as Bachmann can. Their fanbases/customers are simply different. Also, Id argue BLI definently has better models than Bachmann. Bachmann engines rarely have bearings, drivers rarely sprung, often have those super orange LEDs(personal preference), need additional weight, have their crappy decoders(doesnt apply to you Im aware), often uses outdated dies and molds, etc. BLI may cost more, but besides the decoders, are otherwise very well built. But that's personal opinion. Charles *(ATSF, Sou green, Sou black, WM, B&O, Rock Is, UP, SP, WP,N&W, Maine Cen, BLW, PRR, NYC, Durango & Silv)
Charles,
OK, I get those points, but your are cherry picking some info there.
While the Bachmann 2-8-0 is "freelanced", if you compare prototype photos for many/most of those "fantasy" paint schemes, you see that they picked roadnames where their loco was a pretty good stand it, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND for example.
And what about the USRA Pacific and Mike? Bachmann can make the headlights, trailing trucks, and tenders right enough, but Broadway won't? I only bought the two Mikes and one Pacific I have from Broadway because I wanted the "heavy" design. I replaced the trailing trucks with Athearn parts and the tenders with Bachmann parts.
True, newer releases have not had "fancy" drive lines with sprung drivers or bearings, some did. In my 50 plus years experiance, those features are not always that important. Bowser steam locos, Mantua steam locos, Vaney steam locos all ran very well, many are still running, without bearings or sprung drivers. Those locos just lacked detail and model accuracy.
And better features mean nothing without good quality control - like the two BLI Mikes I had to rebuild. Having 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steamers of various wheel arrangements and 7 BLI steamers of various wheel arrangements, I don't see any real difference in mechanical performance between the two brands.
BLI only attracts the more experianced modelers of that short list of roadnames......
But of course I come from a time and place in this hobby when people build or modified models to make them better or more correct for their needs. I still do that, even with BLI models.
Just like Athearn finally went to LED's, Bachmann has moved on to better colors - old news.
Outdated dies? Not sure I get that one. A decent piece of tooling is a decent piece of tooling regardless of age. There is great tooling still in use in this industry that is as old as me. I was born in 1957. And crappy tooling is crappy, new or old, like BLI diesels with less detail than my 20 year old Proto2000 stuff.
I add weight to all my steam locomotive tenders, every brand, they are all too light.
Of all my Bachmann locos, only the 2-8-4's I converted to 2-8-2's and a N&W J that I am kit bashing into something else did I find the need to add weight.
Yes, "quality" and "value" are very subjective.
gmpullmanTry going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen.
I got extemely lucky with my 2008 Colorado. Standard shift, crank windows, AM/FM radio. It does have A/C, this is Florida!
It was special ordered as a commercial truck for an auto parts jobber, but they went out of business, so I was able to buy a commercial version of the truck that was supposed to be fleet sale only.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
A few points I missed:
Yes, a BLI brass hybrid is a step above anything Bachmann has done. And I would buy one and remove the decoder in a hot New York second. And I might just spring for a C&O J3a.
But by comparison, the Spectrum B&O EM-1 is better than most of the brass ones that have ever been done. And I model the B&O, and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL is a road that logically would have had that kind of power.
Adding weight? My two BLI/PCM Reading T-1's did benefit from some extra weight, more for balance than traction, to fill up the big hole in the smokebox left open for the future smoke unit........
Don't take me wrong on this, most BLI steam is very nice except for these decoder problems you here about. But I don't want DCC and sound, good decoder or bad decoder.
And they are not picking locos I have any need for or interest in for the most part.
I have said this before about BLI, MTH, Atlas, KATO - it does not matter how good they are if they do not make something you want to model.
I am not adjusting my modeling interests around the offerings of a few brands deemed to be "better".
Especially not at a time like this in this hobby when there has been so much exceptional products from most brands in the last 15-20 years.
I remember a time before all these great products, when we were happy to detail an Athearn F7 and get it running smooth, or build a Bowser or Mantua steam loco and add some brass detail parts.
If you have only been in this hobby, or on this planet, for the last 20 years, you are spoiled by these great products. I know locomotive wise, I would never want to go back to pre 1990's.
Again happy to have all this great product, from all the brands.
I would not doubt that Bachmann sold as many or more USRA Mountains than BLI sold Big Boys - but BLI is competing with 6 or 7 others ALSO selling Big Boys. I'd bet the total number of Big Boys sold overall by everyone offering them exceeds the sames of Bachmann's USRA Maountain. And few if any of those Big Bioy purchases have 40"+ radius curves needed to make a Big Boy look remotely close to prototypical. But they all make them with 18" )and sometimes 22") radius as a design minimum. Too many compromises.
The larger scale ones are worse - I recently saay James Wright's review of the Lionel O 3-rail Big Boy. I'm assuming the layout he ran it on was using standard O-31 curves - holy boiler overhang! And then he had it running with full length UP passenger cars (the Lionel model is 4014 of course, so he had a train set up to resemble what 4014 was pulling). Not only did the boiler swing out insanely far (as expected, O-31 curves are 31" DIAMETER, about the same as 15" radius HO!) but the passenger cars were INSIDE the inner rail on curves. OK, some people don't care about that, and hi-rail is a completely different market, but the loco is pretty well detailed and then runs on such tight curves and looks like a true toy. But an HO Big Boy running on 18 or 22" radius curves doesn't look much better. But that doesn't stop anyone, as long as it runs.
What we had when I was a kid wasn;t much better - heck, we even had TYCO railroad locos. And then Santa Fe, NYC, V&T locos. Couple of B&O. It was all Tyco, Life Like, and some AHM models. It's what we could afford.
The hobby is changing whether we like it or not. Twenty years ago, my friends at the time all had layouts with scenery, and one even had a feature article about his layout published in MR.
Now, my friends keep accumulating trains but don't have much--or in some cases any--layout at all. I actually have a layout with very basic desert scenery (cat ate other scenery), and I invite them over to run their trains whenever they feel like it. The one's main layout is O-gauge and all he did is roll out the green mat and plop some nice pre-assembled buildings on it. That is the extent of his scenery.
You would not believe the amount of money I'm seeing the younger guys spending at the train store. In the area where I live, the Lionel stuff is still selling like hotcakes. There is a good following for Lionel. In HO, all the Heritage NS units sold very well--all the store could get their hands on--just sold and sold.
People are coming in and buying the latest greatest thing in diesel, but they also want the big steam power. They just buy whatever they like, so yeah, they're just collectors, but they are the ones spending a lot of money, and way more than me.
I think trying to focus on just one railroad is making me the dinosaur.
PRR8259Now, my friends keep accumulating trains but don't have much--or in some cases any--layout at all.
That's what I consider when I hear of people buying locomotives and never taking them out of the box. Someday in the future when these engines finally get to touch live rail will BLI still be around to honor the warranty or will there be parts to repair them?
How many hot motors or bad decoders are sitting in someone's closet that won't be discovered as faulty for another decade or two?
Regards, Ed
I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives.
As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI.
My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems.
richhotrain I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives. As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI. My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems. Rich
So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside.
I understand you are primarily modeling a multi railroad passenger terminal and that would require a different mix compared to my modeling which only includes three interchanges with roads otger than my ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives. As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI. My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems. Rich So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside. I understand you are primarily modeling a multi railroad passenger terminal and that would require a different mix compared to my modeling which only includes three interchanges with roads otger than my ATLANTIC CENTRAL. Sheldon
Because I am a sucker for steam, I have a peninsula devoted in part to steam, a roundhouse, turntable and coaling tower as part of an engine servicing facility shared by diesel locos.
The steamers pull freight around the perimeter of my layout shared by the diesel powered passenger trains on a double mainline, in part a 4-track mainline to replicate the old C&WI mainline that ran from Dolton IL to Chicago.
Sort of a mixture between simulating the prototype and freelancing to explan the presence of steam. Since all roads led to Chicago (and pretty much still do) in the 1950s and beyond, I felt that I could get away with all of these liberties on my new layout. Certainly not for the purists and rivet counters.
Let me get back to you in another post with my steam roster now that I have totally rationalized my setup.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside.
I hate to take this thread off-topic.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside. I am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon. I hate to take this thread off-topic. Rich
I am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon.
PM or another thread, I am very interested in your operational scheme. As a freelance modeler blending in three prototype roads, my thinking is likely similar.
Sheldon, check your PMs.
I have a BLI NW2 and it derails at one spot that no other engine dose and only going forward. This is a well documented problem with this engine and I dont see an easy fix. The problem is the machining was slightly off and dose not happen with larger radius turnouts or broader curves. Will not buy any more BLI. I have had problems before with other engines but they were all user fixable.
richhotrainI am debating whether to post on this thread, start a new thread, or just PM you, Sheldon. I hate to take this thread off-topic.
A new thread would be nice. Even though I have not been posting here, I have been following this thread and would probably enjoy your other conversation as well.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Charles, OK, I get those points, but your are cherry picking some info there. While the Bachmann 2-8-0 is "freelanced", if you compare prototype photos for many/most of those "fantasy" paint schemes, you see that they picked roadnames where their loco was a pretty good stand it, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND for example. And what about the USRA Pacific and Mike? Bachmann can make the headlights, trailing trucks, and tenders right enough, but Broadway won't? I only bought the two Mikes and one Pacific I have from Broadway because I wanted the "heavy" design. I replaced the trailing trucks with Athearn parts and the tenders with Bachmann parts. True, newer releases have not had "fancy" drive lines with sprung drivers or bearings, some did. In my 50 plus years experiance, those features are not always that important. Bowser steam locos, Mantua steam locos, Vaney steam locos all ran very well, many are still running, without bearings or sprung drivers. Those locos just lacked detail and model accuracy. And better features mean nothing without good quality control - like the two BLI Mikes I had to rebuild. Having 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steamers of various wheel arrangements and 7 BLI steamers of various wheel arrangements, I don't see any real difference in mechanical performance between the two brands. BLI only attracts the more experianced modelers of that short list of roadnames...... But of course I come from a time and place in this hobby when people build or modified models to make them better or more correct for their needs. I still do that, even with BLI models. Just like Athearn finally went to LED's, Bachmann has moved on to better colors - old news. Outdated dies? Not sure I get that one. A decent piece of tooling is a decent piece of tooling regardless of age. There is great tooling still in use in this industry that is as old as me. I was born in 1957. And crappy tooling is crappy, new or old, like BLI diesels with less detail than my 20 year old Proto2000 stuff. I add weight to all my steam locomotive tenders, every brand, they are all too light. Of all my Bachmann locos, only the 2-8-4's I converted to 2-8-2's and a N&W J that I am kit bashing into something else did I find the need to add weight. Yes, "quality" and "value" are very subjective. Sheldon
I do believe bearings and sprung drivers do add to the quality of an engine. I will agree the difference isnt super noticable, and as far as "value" goes, most can do without, but I still prefer an engine with bearings than without.
AFAIK Bachmann has never put any sorts of bearings in their steam engines. The "sprung" drivers has only been ususally a center axle sprung. Which helps...
I will fully agree that Bachmann has made some very smart choices as to which prototype they chose to model. The EM1 and C&O 2-6-6-2 (class?) and the USRA mountains are very good choices, that Im surprised no one else chose to copy.
Other choices not so much. Their Spectrum 2-8-2 painted for Susquehanna was some Chinese variant.
I dont understand, what am I cherry picking exactly? I chose a "fantasy" model from both sides. It is generally agreed upon that Bachmann's 2-8-0 was based on the ICRR (far from a B&O E27, or WM H9), and BLI's 2-8-0 was based on the H10s. That comparison was purely to show how well Bachmann can sell their models than BLI can.
Outdated dies: Bachmanns GS-4 shell was from long back when they bought it from Lionel. You must agree its a tad outdated with mostly molded on details. Their trainset level 0-6-0 that they want to charge $80 market price for is also quite old imo. Many of their diesels, the GP40, SD40, FTA engines, etc. Are also very very old and IMO dont very hold up well.
I also didnt like seeing them changing the MA&PA 4-6-0 FROM having seperately applied details TO having molded on details when they moved them from Spectrum to their standard line.
Im starting to forget what we were even debating about. Back to the topic, I see why BLI does such things, although I dont necessarily agree with their choice to no offer DCC ready versions. However, they seem to be doing just fine with their current offerings. They may not entice people like you, but they have hooked a fanbase of their own, and while Id like to see them diversify their prototypes (with B&O P1, or E27, or heck, even an NJC Camelback!), Im content with them continuing to create the models they are currently making.
Cheers!
Hello John,Forgive me if I have not commented yet on the comments on my post, as I am a bit overwhelmed of how it took off. I have come to realize that I appriciate the smaller steam locomotives as well as the larger ones.I am aware of Rapidos concerns with their smaller steam engines maybe not being able to sell, altough I do hope with time, luck and a few good circumstances to see the rest come into fruition, being the rest of the Canadian steam locomotives on their list.
richhotrain Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout? Rich
Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout?
Trainman440 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Charles, OK, I get those points, but your are cherry picking some info there. While the Bachmann 2-8-0 is "freelanced", if you compare prototype photos for many/most of those "fantasy" paint schemes, you see that they picked roadnames where their loco was a pretty good stand it, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND for example. And what about the USRA Pacific and Mike? Bachmann can make the headlights, trailing trucks, and tenders right enough, but Broadway won't? I only bought the two Mikes and one Pacific I have from Broadway because I wanted the "heavy" design. I replaced the trailing trucks with Athearn parts and the tenders with Bachmann parts. True, newer releases have not had "fancy" drive lines with sprung drivers or bearings, some did. In my 50 plus years experiance, those features are not always that important. Bowser steam locos, Mantua steam locos, Vaney steam locos all ran very well, many are still running, without bearings or sprung drivers. Those locos just lacked detail and model accuracy. And better features mean nothing without good quality control - like the two BLI Mikes I had to rebuild. Having 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steamers of various wheel arrangements and 7 BLI steamers of various wheel arrangements, I don't see any real difference in mechanical performance between the two brands. BLI only attracts the more experianced modelers of that short list of roadnames...... But of course I come from a time and place in this hobby when people build or modified models to make them better or more correct for their needs. I still do that, even with BLI models. Just like Athearn finally went to LED's, Bachmann has moved on to better colors - old news. Outdated dies? Not sure I get that one. A decent piece of tooling is a decent piece of tooling regardless of age. There is great tooling still in use in this industry that is as old as me. I was born in 1957. And crappy tooling is crappy, new or old, like BLI diesels with less detail than my 20 year old Proto2000 stuff. I add weight to all my steam locomotive tenders, every brand, they are all too light. Of all my Bachmann locos, only the 2-8-4's I converted to 2-8-2's and a N&W J that I am kit bashing into something else did I find the need to add weight. Yes, "quality" and "value" are very subjective. Sheldon I do believe bearings and sprung drivers do add to the quality of an engine. I will agree the difference isnt super noticable, and as far as "value" goes, most can do without, but I still prefer an engine with bearings than without. AFAIK Bachmann has never put any sorts of bearings in their steam engines. The "sprung" drivers has only been ususally a center axle sprung. Which helps... I will fully agree that Bachmann has made some very smart choices as to which prototype they chose to model. The EM1 and C&O 2-6-6-2 (class?) and the USRA mountains are very good choices, that Im surprised no one else chose to copy. Other choices not so much. Their Spectrum 2-8-2 painted for Susquehanna was some Chinese variant. I dont understand, what am I cherry picking exactly? I chose a "fantasy" model from both sides. It is generally agreed upon that Bachmann's 2-8-0 was based on the ICRR (far from a B&O E27, or WM H9), and BLI's 2-8-0 was based on the H10s. That comparison was purely to show how well Bachmann can sell their models than BLI can. Outdated dies: Bachmanns GS-4 shell was from long back when they bought it from Lionel. You must agree its a tad outdated with mostly molded on details. Their trainset level 0-6-0 that they want to charge $80 market price for is also quite old imo. Many of their diesels, the GP40, SD40, FTA engines, etc. Are also very very old and IMO dont very hold up well. I also didnt like seeing them changing the MA&PA 4-6-0 FROM having seperately applied details TO having molded on details when they moved them from Spectrum to their standard line. Im starting to forget what we were even debating about. Back to the topic, I see why BLI does such things, although I dont necessarily agree with their choice to no offer DCC ready versions. However, they seem to be doing just fine with their current offerings. They may not entice people like you, but they have hooked a fanbase of their own, and while Id like to see them diversify their prototypes (with B&O P1, or E27, or heck, even an NJC Camelback!), Im content with them continuing to create the models they are currently making. Cheers! Charles
Charles, I'm not going to disagree we any of that. Just keep in mind, Bachmann makes products for every segment of the market. Not every Bachmann product is going to satisfy more advanced modelers, they don't expect to. BLI on the other hand clearly claims to be high end, but then they cheap out on the Mike and Pacific to a level lower than Bachmann's somewhat "top of the mid range" product for the same/similar locos.
Personally, because I'm a model builder who will add detail if I want more, tune up a driveline if it can be made better, kit bash one loco into another, my choices are seldom driven by a need for out of the box RTR perfection.
I described above how I have kit bashed/modified 5 of the seven BLI locos I have.