My switch track thread was kind of lame but I still think technology has it in its means.
Where the heck is modern model railroad locomotive technology these days?
Did they miss out on something after they charged tools with lithium batteries not taking it everywhere they could?
The tender behind the locomotive could be a lithium battery to power the locomotive to achieve a no longer need for wiring a layout. And Wireless just like the RC planes in the sky.
Need another lithium battery in case ones getting low, ...Put it in the Box car behind the tender and charge them at night just like my Milwaukee tools.
What's going on with these modern-day engineers today Guys? Did they miss something while they packed their bologna sandwich in their lunch box?
Where are they?
TF
Track fiddlerWhat's going on with these modern-day engineers today Guys?
Others comfortably point out that just such an arrangement is likely a hallmark of emerging dead-rail approaches ... yes, we need a more interesting marketing-style name for it, the sort of thing a 'woke' plain-bearing manufacturer might develop to compete with Timken...
As noted here, the ability to float- or intermittently-charge the Li-ion battery from some combination of wayside and track power is significant. And should be designed into any nominal 'dead-rail' system architecture, to a proper standard.
This topic has been discussed a number of times before. For me it's just one more thing to maintain and go wrong and an additional expense when they have to be replaced - especially if you have a number of locomotives.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I see no need to argue that one.
The housing on tool batteries are a lot thicker. The housing on models are thin.
I see your point Overmod and it's a good one.
And I agree Tom completely.
I Would by no means want to switch my current fleet. I may have missed some of the other threads.
I wondered the other day while I was using my lithium batteries in my tools that work so good why they didn't use them in model trains, that's all
I think the problem is sales volume vs developement cost and tooling cost.
And, I have big steam locos, small steam locos, medium diesel locos and small diesel locos.....one size is not going to work for all.
And then we need an open architecture direct radio control system to run them.....
Remember, it has taken 25 years to get DCC above 50% useage.......
Sheldon
Good point Sheldon.
And to switch everything up now while everybody is caught up with money invested in what they're running
It was just a thought. I have no cord going to any of my tools anymore and thought that could be applied to a model railroad I thought wrong
Battery-powered railroad locomotives make no sense. None at all.
If you want a locomotive that runs by "electric power", you string wires overhead for power that never runs down or needs recharging.
The founders of electric traction had learned this by the last half of the 19th century. Nothing's really changed since then.
Short-lived thread
It was worth a shot. I guess I didn't see the other ones
I best go back to my modeling and keep the locos I got
I guess this one was just as bad as the turnout thread. I will try with something new, ... At a later date
Don't give up yet; I've been running errands. There's more to be said for lithium batteries in model railroading...
I worked in two-way radio communications for Public Safety for 50 years and batteries were my worst nightmare. The only way batteries work correctly is with proper maintenance and proper maintenance requires perfect charging. How many times have you picked up a battery driven device and it didn’t work because the battery was either dead or close to it? Before I retired 50% of one clerks time was for the maintenance of 1500 batteries.I for one wouldn’t even attempt at running my trains from batteries. I do use rechargeable batteries to power all kinds of goodies for backup power fail. But even those batteries require a lot of managed maintenance, it only takes one error for them to not perform their duty and leave you in the dark!The new Lithium batteries are great but still require time devoted to keep them working properly, the first time you let your guard down (maintenance) you will be sorry.I have a strict maintenance schedule for all my rechargeable batteries and so far I’ve done OK. All my passenger cars, coaches and cabooses have battery backup lighting (flicker free lighting with coin cells trough 18650 Cells) and are kept charged by onboard chargers. Once a month I swap out all the batteries and run them through a battery conditioner/analyzer to make sure the capacity is up to spec.As for RC flight I would like to know how many planes have bit the dust because the batteries failed or didn’t last as long as expected.Batteries are only as good as the person doing the maintenance.Ramblings from an 83 yr old guy that worked with batteries for 50 yrs.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
RR_MelI have a strict maintenance schedule for all my rechargeable batteries and so far I’ve done OK. All my passenger cars, coaches and cabooses have battery backup lighting (flicker free lighting with coin cells trough 18650 Cells) and are kept charged by onboard chargers. Once a month I swap out all the batteries and run them through a battery conditioner/analyzer to make sure the capacity is up to spec.
This is exactly why I prefer modular lighting that uses capacitors. Still flicker-free but no need to take a car apart to access/test/change batteries.
I'm currently working (sorta) on a dead rail Mantua Pacific (now a Hudson) for a friend. I was surprised by his interest in it, as he is stridently opposed to DCC, and this install includes a decoder and wireless throttle, along with the lithium battery. If I'm successful with this, he won't even have to take it off the track for re-charging...just plug it in and flip a switch on the tender's deck.
Personally, I don't see the point of this, given the outlay of cash necessary, although subsequent locos wouldn't need another charger or throttle.
Wayne
tstage RR_Mel I have a strict maintenance schedule for all my rechargeable batteries and so far I’ve done OK. All my passenger cars, coaches and cabooses have battery backup lighting (flicker free lighting with coin cells trough 18650 Cells) and are kept charged by onboard chargers. Once a month I swap out all the batteries and run them through a battery conditioner/analyzer to make sure the capacity is up to spec. This is exactly why I prefer modular lighting that uses capacitors. Still flicker-free but no need to take a car apart to access/test/change batteries. Tom
RR_Mel I have a strict maintenance schedule for all my rechargeable batteries and so far I’ve done OK. All my passenger cars, coaches and cabooses have battery backup lighting (flicker free lighting with coin cells trough 18650 Cells) and are kept charged by onboard chargers. Once a month I swap out all the batteries and run them through a battery conditioner/analyzer to make sure the capacity is up to spec.
You got that right Tom!!Even though I really don’t like batteries the thing I do like is the ability to leave my passenger trains lighting on when I’m operating in DC mode. I can park a train at the passenger station for hours with the rail power off with full lighting.I have the battery (AA size 14500 4 volt 1200mah) and charger in the baggage cars for both my streamline and heavy weight trains. The LED lit cars are daisy chained from the baggage cars.My old timer coaches and cabooses use a LIR2032 coin cell(4 volt 40mah). I made it to where the shells come off supper easy with micro connectors mounted to the shells and floors, no messy wires.
Even though I made everything very accessible it’s still a PITA to maintain the batteries. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Li-po batteries can take many charge cycles, I don't thinkt here is a problem there. Space, is the m,main issue, as usual. Outside of steam locos that come with large tenders (ironically, the ones that LEAST need keep alive technology, at least if they are wired to pick up both sides of the loco as well as both sides of the tender), there just isn't room for allt he stuff. On many diesels, there's just enough room for the DCC decoder, and a speaker. OK, repalce the DCC decoder with a direct radio control receiver. Now, where do you put the batteries? Using a car behind is absolutely, 100% not acceptable for anyone who wants to do anything beyond simply running the trains around - even the most casual of operations, requiring a specific car to be coupled to the loco is just not practical.
For larger scales - battery operation has been a thing for many years now. Especially G scale, since in an outdoor environment it can be really difficult to keep the track clean for through the rails electrical pickup. LGB and other locos have had sockets on the back to connect battery power (or link two of the smaller locos for a better wheel pickup area) for a long time now. Several manufacturers have offered the radio control systems.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I do not believe it could exist in N scale easily.
But HO is a whole different ball game. With today's technology it could be fit to that size to be done and that's that.
Plenty of room and drivers could be put in box cars with the battery in the same car powering the train.
My impact drivers aren't much bigger and even if they are. They are put under a lot more strain. Powering trains wouldn't have this.
Let's face it, powering in a 3/8 lag bolt into a treated timber isn't like driving a train up a 2% grade pulling some cars.
I've had my same lithium batteries for over 5 years and a lot of times they last for days.
For it to work, it need to fit completely in a loco. The box car tagging along just on't do. That's been done for non-scale toys, battery goes in a car, it all hoosk together and gets set on some plastic track, and off it goes. But it's too toy like. A loco needs to be able to run by itself to the service track. To go out to the ayrd and couple to its train. To uncouple fromt he traina nd run around to set out a car. None of that would realistically have the same box car couple to the loco the whole time. Needing a car coupled on turns scale model railroading into just another toy train.
Even if you took all the metal weight out of a typical powered HO loco - there's not much room for a battery. Certainly not an off the shelf one which would make such an arrangement affordable. Custom packs designed to fit in specific spaces would NOT be cheap. ANd like you need different size decoders and speakers to fit different model locos, you'd need multiple custom battery packs, and thus so much for volume keeping the cost down. Plus with no weight and the space filled with li-ion battery - the loco would have no pulling power. And don't even think about going back to the days of rubber traction tires. We have thankfully left that behind in the 70's where it belongs, for the most part.
It's simply still not practical in HO and smaller, other than steam where you have all that room in the tender for a nice size battery pack. Case in point, I have a small drone that fits int he palm of my hand. the 1S li-ion battery pack that goes in it, which makes it fly for 10-15 minutes tops, is still too big to fit in most HO diesels. OK, it has 4 motors, so maybe the same size pack would run the HO loco 4x as long, up to 60 minutes on a charge. Maybe that's enough - but don't forget the part where it won't fit in most diesels. In a steam loco tender? Easily. You could go bigger, for even longer run time, in a steam loco tender. There still is not a practical solution for decent run time in an HO diesel. There are some smaller packs that do fit, but then they don't have the run time - almost better to use the same volume in supercapacitors and use it as a keep alive, then there are no recharging issues or run time issues, and the loco will run great even on somewhat dirty track.
ANd of course the 1000 pound gorilla int he room - there are 4 or 5 systems ont he market today, and not one of them is compatible with the other. Command control had been around since the early 60's, but never took off, because every system was different and you couldn't just take your locos to a friend's layout, or the club. It took until the establishment of an NMRA standard in the form of DCC to allow it to truly take off. Without an established standard, it's like betting on a horse race by picking the coolest name and hoping that horse makes it to the finish line.
Track fiddlerDid they miss out on something after they charged tools with lithium batteries not taking it everywhere they could?
Well I certainly hope model train manufacturers do not go the tool route where they each have their own battery not compatible with anyone elses trains.
As mentioned above, standards are the key to widespread use.
But the benefits have to outweigh the drawbacks and I don't think we're there yet. The benefits are not wiring the track and not having to clean the track. The drawbacks are the extra cost, having to recharge the battery, having to maintain/replace batteries, and limited run time.
Paul
Point well taken Randy, Paul.
I did notice the batteries for my Milwaukee Tools went from $100 to $150 a piece while I was at Home Depot the other day.
It would definitely only become an alternative for the rich. The only rich I know of playing with their trains is Rod Stewart. I'm very sure there is many more though
LIONS do not like Bat Trees. The droppings are a big mess.
Besides him has never had good luck with rechargables.
Although I do have seventy pounts of recharageables here in my office waiting to be switched out on our UPS devices. Have to send the boy around to take new ynits up and to bring old units dow for re-bat treeing.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
The use of the rails to conduct electric power to our trains - where the rail itself is supposed to be a scale model of real rail, and the wheels that pick up that power are also expected to be scale models of real wheels -- has always created issues big and small, and many of those issues still exist. Count the threads on this Forum about dirty track and stalling on turnouts for example.
I can imagine that battery power on board will become more practical and less expensive and less bothersome to recharge far faster than the hobby is ready to embrace it. There already are early adapters and good luck to them. I'll sit back and wait to see who wins this race: model railroad technology, or the grim reaper who has already started to snoop around the house. My money is on Mr. Reaper.
I do love my cordless electric screwdriver. I loved its two predecessors, both of which sit dead in a box because either there is no replacement battery to be had, or that battery costs more than a new cordless electric screwdriver.
Dave Nelson
dknelson I can imagine that battery power on board will become more practical and less expensive and less bothersome to recharge far faster than the hobby is ready to embrace it. There already are early adapters and good luck to them. I'll sit back and wait to see who wins this race: model railroad technology, or the grim reaper who has already started to snoop around the house. My money is on Mr. Reaper. Dave Nelson
You got that right! He’s been snooping around my place for a couple of years. If I was a cat with 9 lives I’d be on 8¾.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
dknelsonI can imagine that battery power on board will become more practical and less expensive and less bothersome to recharge far faster than the hobby is ready to embrace it.
I'm a little astounded that there has been no particular 'pitch' to the hobby communities that run these batteries intensively in conjunction with intricate RC to engage in some version of model railroading, if for no other reason than to attract more 'younger blood.'
As mentioned, a standard for control and another for power exchange and maintenance are likely to be needed for any practical development of dead rail as an operating system; I think that regardless of whatever wireless or 'harmonized' data protocols are determined for those standards, a default should be full mirroring of the control and logic structure of DCC as a subset, perhaps to the point that a simple WiFi bridge makes existing DCC controllers effective for dead rail as well but without dictating 'better practice' for new methods of wireless control...
Standardized dead rail for Model Railroads would solve so many problems. It's already popular for Garden Railroads. The key is having an industry standard like Microsoft OS did for the PC. The biggest headwind to it though is the existence of all the old DC/DCC equipment out there. Someone with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in older equipment isn't going to adopt the new technology. But new entrants into the hobby will probably be ectstatic with the idea.
I have maintained for years that, when the technology permits, and when its costs permit all those involved to abide, battery-operated toy trains are going to be the future. How they're to be recharged is another matter, perhaps some kind of a 'docking station or wireless recharging as many smart phones and watches are currently charged, but built into a track element. But, when graphene batteries, or something just as spiffy, come on line, and can be purchased wholesale for about $4/unit, I think it will improve the appeal and running experience greatly.
If there is one serious drawback to DCC operations (only), it's the widespread complaint about intermittent movement and sounds. If there's one thing that could seriously affect the longevity of the hobby, it will be this.
Track fiddler Point well taken Randy, Paul. I did notice the batteries for my Milwaukee Tools went from $100 to $150 a piece while I was at Home Depot the other day. It would definitely only become an alternative for the rich. The only rich I know of playing with their trains is Rod Stewart. I'm very sure there is many more though TF
I've always used DeWalt, as a former relative who was a professional contractor used only DeWalt, and if it was good enough for a pro - for something I will use a lot, I will spend the money and get the good stuff, for something I might need only once or twice, I don't mind getting the cheaper one.
ALL of the older tools that use NiCad packs, if used with any regularity, either no longer hold much of a charge, or have outright failed. Nature of the beast. All the new ones use lithium packs. DeWalt has an adapter to let you use new lithium batteries with the old NiCad tools, so my old drill/driver had a new life. I also took a chance on one of the "no name" batteris available on Amazon. It claims to be a 6AH battery, it was cheaper than the 2AH DeWalt battery. In truth, it seems to be more like a 4AH battery - still double (not triple) the life of the 2AH DeWalt for a lower price, so despite not being exactly what it claims to be, it's still a bargain. I will get more if I need them - I now have 5 batteries and 2 chargers, though two of them are the really low 1.5AH ones that came witht he one drill/driver, they run down fast when building benchwork. I have 2 of the 1AH ones that came with the adtaper, on the new drill/driver and in the impact driver, they last a decent amount of time - more than long enough for one to recharge while using the other. And then I have the big beefy one to fall back on.
Most any of these, if removed from the oversize plastic case, could fit in all but the smaller G scale locos, and probably give a pretty nice long run time.
Dead rail?
The rail is the easy part for wiring. Just two wires around the track. Where it gets complicated is everything else. You want signals. Dead track has no effect. You want lit structures? You want remote turnout control? Automatic turnout control? Dead track has no effect.
But the idea of parking a loco on a roundhouse recharge track, has a certain appeal.
I mean really, we have the water towers, the sand houses, the fueling stations, but who uses them. A switcher can go indefinately without ever going to the service area. But with a battery, it has to go.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse But the idea of parking a loco on a roundhouse recharge track, has a certain appeal.
That is a brilliant thought.
Kind of like that robotic vacuum cleaner that Finds Its way back to its charging station. Roomba I think?
All your other points were well taken as well Chip. You could have all the modern day technology of lithium batteries and remote control you want. But for some things a power source is definitely needed and old school holds its own.
Randy I was so bummed out when my tool trailer got stolen and all the contents were emptied. I lost my lifetime of DeWalt tools from that scam
rrinker I've always used DeWalt, as a former relative who was a professional contractor used only DeWalt, and if it was good enough for a pro - for something I will use a lot, I will spend the money and get the good stuff, for something I might need only once or twice, I don't mind getting the cheaper one. ALL of the older tools that use NiCad packs, if used with any regularity, either no longer hold much of a charge, or have outright failed. Nature of the beast. All the new ones use lithium packs. DeWalt has an adapter to let you use new lithium batteries with the old NiCad tools, so my old drill/driver had a new life. I also took a chance on one of the "no name" batteris available on Amazon. It claims to be a 6AH battery, it was cheaper than the 2AH DeWalt battery. In truth, it seems to be more like a 4AH battery - still double (not triple) the life of the 2AH DeWalt for a lower price, so despite not being exactly what it claims to be, it's still a bargain. I will get more if I need them - I now have 5 batteries and 2 chargers, though two of them are the really low 1.5AH ones that came witht he one drill/driver, they run down fast when building benchwork. I have 2 of the 1AH ones that came with the adtaper, on the new drill/driver and in the impact driver, they last a decent amount of time - more than long enough for one to recharge while using the other. And then I have the big beefy one to fall back on. Most any of these, if removed from the oversize plastic case, could fit in all but the smaller G scale locos, and probably give a pretty nice long run time. --Randy